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RepSpec

Off brews in PET bottles after 2-3 months?

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Posted (edited)

Hey guys

Havent been drinking my HB for a while, but had some the other night.

1 bottle out of 4 was drinkable (2 different brews, brewed 3 weeks apart). Off tasting...like a bad saison funk, not band-ady, but not pleasent to drink.

Brews were kit and kilo brews using the APA base, 500g malt, some dex and then various hops added...didnt really do anything different with these brews.

Beers when i tried them (maybe 3 weeks ago) were ok.

Is it common to have a few iffy bottles? I think i may have had something similar quite a few brews ago, but wasnt sure.

Left me less confident in the rest of the beers in that batch.

They are stored inside, In the coopers boxes, covered. Standard room temps could be between 12-30 (melbourne climate)

 

Edited by RepSpec

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I'm sure some others have more ideas, but one thing that springs to mind with hopped beers is overtime they will start to lose their "hoppiness". Maybe that is what has started to happen.

I wouldn't think it would make them undrinkable though, very weird.

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Could be oxidisation in the hop department? Or maybe those particular bottles had some sanitation issues?

 

i brewed a hoppy pale ale a while back. There was a definitely degradation of hop aroma and also a slight aniseed taste due to oxidisation in SOME bottles over a 2/3 month period.... depends what you call undrinkable though...aniseed might be undrinkable to some, I managed to drink past it

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49 minutes ago, RepSpec said:

like a bad saison funk

I had something similar in one brew I did with home grown hops.  It was an almost unknown variety called Red Earth.  It might be unknown because it has turned out not so good.

I did a 5 minute boil, a 20 minute steep and a dry hop with these hops.  The brew got worse as it aged.  After about 4-5 bottles I tipped the lot (luckily it was a half batch).  In this case though it seemed to be every bottle that was no good.  Your 3 out of 4 fails seems a bit strange.  Sounds like something in the bottling step rather than a whole batch gone bad.

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bottling hasnt changed since i started. I always clean my bottles with hot water after use, then store them. Then wash with water, then soak in Miltons for 15-20mins, then dry on the coopers bottle tree, before bottling within 1-3hrs

Bottles were firm, chilled for 2 days and then eskied in ice until i drank them.

Theres nothing i can put my finger on (as it was over 2 brews and they have been fine since)

All poured fine, headed up fine, smelled ok. Just had a lingering aftertaste that was like a bad Saison.

Hops were Mosaic and galaxy in one and citra and galaxy in the other.

For memory i used rehydrated us05.

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Yeah...  I've had something similar with a recent golden ale.  Among the remaining bottles which have been aged 2 months-ish several have tasted off....  and one tell-tale sign was they poured with more foam than the others.    Every bottle I sampled early on was perfectly OK but it seems over time something undesired in the bottles has started to develop.

 

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28 minutes ago, BlackSands said:

Yeah...  I've had something similar with a recent golden ale.  Among the remaining bottles which have been aged 2 months-ish several have tasted off....  and one tell-tale sign was they poured with more foam than the others.    Every bottle I sampled early on was perfectly OK but it seems over time something undesired in the bottles has started to develop.

 

any ideas on the cause? Was it a k&k brew or grain brew Black?

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This is the reason I have always bottled a mixture of glass and PETs for every batch. Every batch had minimum 6 glass bottles.

I have an 8 month old IPA, and a 12 month old Irish Stout in storage, and that will say a lot about Glass v PET.

Having the mixture has also allowed me to resolve a recent issue with some dead PETs fairly quickly. 

I'm not suggesting you have a PET issue, but if that can be eliminated, you can look for process or recipe issues.

Cheers

 Old PETs end-of-life

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4 hours ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

Red Earth.  It might be unknown because it has turned out not so good.

There’s a bit of a renaissance happening over here in the west with Red Earth. I’m yet to try it. But have heard good things.

 

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30 minutes ago, The Captain!! said:

There’s a bit of a renaissance happening over here in the west with Red Earth. I’m yet to try it. But have heard good things.

 

I would be interested to hear more.  

I have also got two Goldings plants and two American Cascade.  Red Earth smells much more hoppy than either.  I read it is derived from Columbus and crossed with Goldings derived male.  Unsure of the AA's; Goldings can be as low as 5% whereas Columbus can be up to 16%.  Because of the stronger hop aroma from the flowers, I think the AA's would be toward the higher end?

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4 hours ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

I would be interested to hear more.  

I have also got two Goldings plants and two American Cascade.  Red Earth smells much more hoppy than either.  I read it is derived from Columbus and crossed with Goldings derived male.  Unsure of the AA's; Goldings can be as low as 5% whereas Columbus can be up to 16%.  Because of the stronger hop aroma from the flowers, I think the AA's would be toward the higher end?

Honestly mate I e got no idea, I’ll have to ask around for more info or get some myself and brew a single hop brew with it. 

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It would probably do you some good to actually clean your bottles rather than just rinse them in water. Miltons is a sanitiser not a cleaner, and not the most ideal as a no rinse one, given its chlorine content. 

Not saying that these things are 100% the culprit but they could be. Proper cleaning, and sanitising with something that doesn't contain chlorine would at least take those things out of the equation. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

It would probably do you some good to actually clean your bottles rather than just rinse them in water. Miltons is a sanitiser not a cleaner, and not the most ideal as a no rinse one, given its chlorine content. 

Not saying that these things are 100% the culprit but they could be. Proper cleaning, and sanitising with something that doesn't contain chlorine would at least take those things out of the equation. 

 

Can you please provide a step by step cleaning regiment then? Which products to use, how much to use etc...

This was the way i was shown, havent been shown any other way...and up until now, it hasnt been an issue.

I have had 1 or 2 others have this happen, using Miltons the whole time, out of 15-20 brews.

Including cleaning all the equipment (FV, taps, wands, mixers, bottles etc) with miltons.

 

Thinking about the brews, some of them may be in new bottles, so an older bottle could possibly be a culprit 🤔

 

Edited by RepSpec

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16 hours ago, RepSpec said:

any ideas on the cause? Was it a k&k brew or grain brew Black?

It was one of my usual 50/50 partial mash brews.  There's no easy way of knowing what the cause of these things is...  we can only speculate and make educated guesses really, though having said that, a few years back I did have a bad run with what I believed was a probably a wild yeast contamination which I eventually put down to the fermenter taps.  They're hard to pull apart and clean thoroughly and it seemed sanitiser was penetrating into their inner workings so since then I've just been dropping them into boiling water instead.  The problem seemed to go away when I started doing that. ..  well, up until this more recent issue.  AND....   I now have a stuck half-batch that is showing signs of a pedio contamination  🤨   

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I'd just rinse them in warm water, fill with warm water and soak with sodium percarbonate or a nappy soaker for a few hours or overnight. Rinse thoroughly, drain and store, then on bottling day give them a spray with starsan or something like it, and fill. Same with the fermenter although you can obviously use hot water with it. 

I stay away from chlorine based products because of the risk of them causing off flavours. It can be avoided by either rinsing thoroughly or allowing the equipment to completely dry before use, but unless I really need to nuke something I don't use them.

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13 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

I'd just rinse them in warm water, fill with warm water and soak with sodium percarbonate or a nappy soaker for a few hours or overnight. Rinse thoroughly, drain and store, then on bottling day give them a spray with starsan or something like it...

I would add that a biofilm/residue does gradually build up on the inside of bottles - especially it seems if you brew a lot of hoppy beers. For that reason I suspect the film is actually largely made up of hop oils.  I found a long soak in sodium percarbonate did nothing to remove it... nor did TSP.    The only effective cleaning method I know of that adequately deals with it is good old fashioned elbow grease and a bottle brush!   😎

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Yeah, I found that too initially when I did some bottles years ago that were rather cloudy inside. However once it was cleaned off and I soaked them after every use, it didn't come back. 

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Mix it up in a spray bottle at a rate of 1.5mL per litre, then simply spray anything that needs sanitising.

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 How long to soak for?

Could you mix "X" amount in a tub to soak everything ie FV, the bottles/caps and bits and pieces as i would the miltons?

Then is it ready to use, or need rinsing?

Sorry for the pain questions...like ive said, i have had 1 or 2 bottles out of 500 or so that have been an issue. So to change the cleaning now, i have to re learn.

 

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16 minutes ago, RepSpec said:

 How long to soak for?

Could you mix "X" amount in a tub to soak everything ie FV, the bottles/caps and bits and pieces as i would the miltons?

Then is it ready to use, or need rinsing?

Sorry for the pain questions...like ive said, i have had 1 or 2 bottles out of 500 or so that have been an issue. So to change the cleaning now, i have to re learn.

 

I make sure after each beer I rinse the bottle with hot water 2 or three times.

2 days before bottling I soak all bottles in a big tub over night in either Nappy San or the brigalows bottle cleaner from big w. I’ve actually found the brigalows one doesn’t soap up as much and seems to rinse out of the bottles easier. FYI

day before bottling I rinse off the bottle cleaner using fresh water. I do this 2 times.

let em dry over night and the Day of bottling I use a non rinse sanitizer on each bottle. 

Probably over kill doing it like this but has worked thus far. Probably an hour total worth of work. Just part of the process though. 

 

I can can totally see why brewers move to kegging. Lol

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great info there mitch!

Perhaps i have been a bit lax in the cleaning of the bottles. I normally smell each bottle before i rinse to see if they have any residue/off smells to them. If they do, i throw them out.

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22 minutes ago, RepSpec said:

great info there mitch!

Perhaps i have been a bit lax in the cleaning of the bottles. I normally smell each bottle before i rinse to see if they have any residue/off smells to them. If they do, i throw them out.

I get worried I’m going to brew a great beer than have it ruined by a nasty in the bottles

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3 hours ago, BlackSands said:

I would add that a biofilm/residue does gradually build up on the inside of bottles - especially it seems if you brew a lot of hoppy beers. For that reason I suspect the film is actually largely made up of hop oils.  I found a long soak in sodium percarbonate did nothing to remove it... nor did TSP.    The only effective cleaning method I know of that adequately deals with it is good old fashioned elbow grease and a bottle brush!   😎

Again I harken back to the brilliant and 100% effective advice from PB2. A small capful of non-scented bleach (I use White King), fill with cold water and stand overnight. Next day rinse with hot water and air dry.

The hop oils are gone and the clarity is brilliant.

No bottle brush - no elbow grease.

Cheers

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12 minutes ago, Worthog said:

Again I harken back to the brilliant and 100% effective advice from PB2. A small capful of non-scented bleach (I use White King), fill with cold water and stand overnight. Next day rinse with hot water and air dry.

The hop oils are gone and the clarity is brilliant.

No bottle brush - no elbow grease.

Cheers

Ah yes, there's that too.  I guess like some, I'm just a little apprehensive about using bleach...    

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