Big Juicy IPA

[Otto Von Blotto]

I'll definitely be increasing the early bittering next time I brew one, which will have to be soon as it has been a while. That time I basically matched the OG but too much late. Happy to go up to 75-80 with increased early boil hops if it will work better, or even higher. I'll work it out haha. 

[Popo the Reprobate]

Just drinking a Crankshaft now. If it's better than that  @porschemad911 I'll give it a crack in my little fermenter. Thanks for posting the recipe. 

[Ryano2]

WOW that's alot of hops!! almost $50 of hops alone for a 23L ferment!

I'll have to give this a try one day! maybe when my tax return comes in ahah

[Mark D Pirate]

On 8/31/2018 at 3:56 PM, porschemad911 said:

Yep I aim for 100+ IBU in my recipe above. Any less and with the malt, alcohol and hop sweetness it wouldn't taste right. 

Cheers, 

John 

Just doubling everything won't work unless the boil size is doubled as well. 

What software are you using to get over 100 ibu from those additions ? What's the boil volume and gravity ? 

[Mark D Pirate]

On 8/31/2018 at 9:37 AM, Otto Von Blotto said:

Centennial is a mainstay in my freezer, most of the time it ends up in my red ale because I'm busy experimenting with other hops in pale ales, however I have done some of them and an IPA with it which were all very nice, though the IPA could have used more long boiled bitterness. It'll be going into some more when I get back to some hop combos in my pales.

About time I made your Red again,  I've fiddled around with it a little for my tastes and always popular .

Last brew of it used Brooklyn for bittering and galaxy / riwaka late ,  whirlpool and dry 

[porschemad911]

On 9/2/2018 at 6:07 AM, Mark D Pirate said:

Just doubling everything won't work unless the boil size is doubled as well. 

What software are you using to get over 100 ibu from those additions ? What's the boil volume and gravity ? 

Hi Mark,

Well yes, 'double everything' would include boil volume. But thank you for highlighting this as it could be a potential point of contention, and I didn't state my boil volume in the original recipe.

I use my own software, which implements Dr. Tinseth's formula. For this particular batch I double-checked with Dr. Tinseth's calculator.

My boil was 5l starting volume, with 500g LDM. 500g LDM in 5l will yield an average gravity of 1.040 over a 15 minute boil on my system, with a final volume of around 4.275 litres.

Adding 25g 9.2%AA Centennial @15mins and 50g Centennial @5mins will give 118 IBU in 4.275l according to Tinseth with the constants at their default values. Diluting to 11l gives 51 IBU, and add this onto the 50.2 IBU from the Mexican Cerveza kit when diluted to 11l and you get 101 IBU pre-fermentation. At a guess, that would come down to 70 - 80 IBU post-fermentation.

Numbers aside, having sampled another tonight, it makes a great beer!

Cheers,

John

[porschemad911]

On 8/31/2018 at 6:03 PM, Popo said:

Just drinking a Crankshaft now. If it's better than that  @porschemad911 I'll give it a crack in my little fermenter. Thanks for posting the recipe. 

I'm trying to think where it was that I had a Crankshaft just the other day ... can't remember where it was now. Anyway, what I can remember is that I came home and had one of these, and was much more satisified.

Cheers,

John

[porschemad911]

On 9/1/2018 at 3:52 PM, Ryano2 said:

WOW that's alot of hops!! almost $50 of hops alone for a 23L ferment!

Not if you get them at the right place. Check out the Brewman Dealz page ... he still has $16.95 for 225g Centennial.

Cheers,

John

[ChristinaS1]

On 8/11/2018 at 1:40 AM, The Captain1525230099 said:

You could also add the dry hop in two amounts, half at mid fermentation which will give you that hop bio transformation and then the rest after fermentation and you’ll get a big juicy hazy NEIPA. 

Just an option.

I tried adding hops at mid fermentation once, and I found they made the beer very vegetal; I thought they kind of ruined the beer. Maybe I did it wrong because I added them commando style, which means they stayed in until bottling (long contact time). Personally I prefer shorter contact times, like a two to three day dry hop.

I heard an interview with John Palmer earlier this year and he had just double checked with the yeast scientists doing the latest research. He said there is no evidence that any of the commonly used ale yeast can perform biotransformation, specially not US-05.

I used to use the Lager or APA kit as a base for my brews (I mostly make APAs as, like you, I like the lower ABV) but found they made my brews too bitter. Nowadays I am using the Mexican Cervesa kit, which leaves more wiggle room for late kettle additions. 

Stan Hieronymus calls 20 minute additions a waste of hops. Since hearing him say that I moved my first addition down to 10 minutes, then do a second one at 5 minutes, then make the largest addition at flameout,  with a 20 minute hop stand. Less loss of aroma, less pick up of IBUs. I have been very happy with the result.

Cheers,

Christina.

[Beer Baron]

No addition of hops can be a waste of time. Hops are awesome!!!

[Beerlust]

19 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

...Stan Hieronymus calls 20 minute additions a waste of hops.

That is dependant on a number of factors & what you want from the hop at this point in the boil.

Stan had obviously forgotten about beers such as the Dogfish Head IPA when making that statement.

I doubt he has the somewhat restricted budgets many of us have when making his beers too. 

Cheers,

Lusty.

[Norris!]

That is funny because Randy Mosher and his brewery in Chi town used biotranformation to get vanilla flavours out of wood.  I believe it is around the 38 minute mark pans before the 45minute mark. That is practical application. Either way that is what is cool about homebrewing, we choose what we like and use. By the way, Welcome back Christina! Your viewpoints are always well researched and insightful.

Norris

http://beersmith.com/blog/2018/04/24/hop-biotransformation-and-ne-ipa-with-randy-mosher-beersmith-podcast-169/

[The Captain!!]

23 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

I heard an interview with John Palmer earlier this year and he had just double checked with the yeast scientists doing the latest research. He said there is no evidence that any of the commonly used ale yeast can perform biotransformation, specially not US-05.

Stan Hieronymus calls 20 minute additions a waste of hops. Since hearing him say that I moved my first addition down to 10 minutes, then do a second one at 5 minutes, then make the largest addition at flameout,  with a 20 minute hop stand. Less loss of aroma, less pick up of IBUs. I have been very happy with the result.

Cheers,

Christina.

Gday Christina, 

Been way too busy to reply to this one. I’ve also read more about the yeast types for NEIPA beers. I guess that’s why the English strains are getting more popular in the US now. Apparently only a few years ago the English strains were the least sold now it’s the most popular.

I’m don’t think that’s right about the 20min addition unless your whirlpoolling for an hour.  Every graph or chart I’ve seen says max flavour is at 20 mins of boiling temps. However is the cooling got something to do with that statement.

If your leaving a 20 addition in and not cooling then I could understand the most of the volatile oils may evaporate. I guess that could be something to consider. 

Good to hear from you again Christina. I’ll post some garlic pics in a few weeks of the first harvest. 

Captain

[ChristinaS1]

4 hours ago, Norris! said:

That is funny because Randy Mosher and his brewery in Chi town used biotranformation to get vanilla flavours out of wood.  I believe it is around the 38 minute mark pans before the 45minute mark. That is practical application. Either way that is what is cool about homebrewing, we choose what we like and use. By the way, Welcome back Christina! Your viewpoints are always well researched and insightful.

Norris

http://beersmith.com/blog/2018/04/24/hop-biotransformation-and-ne-ipa-with-randy-mosher-beersmith-podcast-169/

Hi Norris. Thanks for the welcome back. I listened to that podcast and what he says about oak is in contradiction to what Shea Comfort, a consultant to the wine industry, says about it in the second half of this podcast: http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/post1888/

Shea says that vanillin is higher in medium toast, lower in dark toast. Also, he says that vanillin is in the wood itself, and is not a product of yeast metabolism. In fact the opposite is true: yeast metabolize vanillin out. He says that if you want vanilla flavour, add the oak after fermentation. However,  if there are benefits to adding oak at the beginning of fermentation, in which case you get more "structure" and mouthfeel from them. 

Randy Mosher is a professional brewer who dabbles in the use of oak. In the podcast he admits he doesn't know much about it, and that wine folks are the experts. Shea Comfort is a wine industry expert. I am more inclined to listen to him. 

But yeast do metabolize vanillin into other compounds, which fits the definition of biotransformation. But can yeast convert geraniol into beta citronellol? This area of study is evolving rapidly. Back in January, 2018, in the podcast I linked to earlier, John Palmer said that at that point the science said no, but maybe there is new information out there?

Even if yeast can biotransform hop terpenes, the question then becomes: how can a home brewers take advantage of it? Not sure if you caught what he said, but Randy mentioned that, unlike most brewing innovations, NEIPAs developed in the brewing industry, not among home brewers. He said that for their Single and Double NEIPAs, they add DHs on Day 2 and Day 5, and they have them in cans and for sale on Day 8. He said that at this stage, the DH impart a peppery bite, which he personally is not a fan of (he prefers them at two weeks), but that is what sells. For their Triples (10% ABV), they add a third DH charge about a week after the 2nd, which might mean around Day 15? He says that by that time the 1st and 2nd DH charges "are loosing their luster."

If Day 2 and Day 5 DH additions are loosing their luster by Day 15, I am not sure how those early "biotransformation" additions are of much benefit to anyone who bottle carbonates. I think it makes more sense to add the DHs as close to packaging as possible. Assuming "biotransformation" is indeed a thing, yeast are still present in the bottle, and a small, second fermentation happens during carbonation. I do try to make a point of choosing a hop varieties that are high geraniol (Centennial), linalool, and those those sulphur compounds (Mosaic) too.  My favourite combo is Centennial, Amarillo, and Mosaic; it is very fruity and tropical. 

Cheers Norris,

Christina.

PS FYI, I start cold crashing on Day 8. I add my DH either the day before the CC starts, or right as I start the CC. 

[ChristinaS1]

2 hours ago, The Captain1525230099 said:

Gday Christina, 

Been way too busy to reply to this one. I’ve also read more about the yeast types for NEIPA beers. I guess that’s why the English strains are getting more popular in the US now. Apparently only a few years ago the English strains were the least sold now it’s the most popular.

I’m don’t think that’s right about the 20min addition unless your whirlpoolling for an hour.  Every graph or chart I’ve seen says max flavour is at 20 mins of boiling temps. However is the cooling got something to do with that statement.

If your leaving a 20 addition in and not cooling then I could understand the most of the volatile oils may evaporate. I guess that could be something to consider. 

Good to hear from you again Christina. I’ll post some garlic pics in a few weeks of the first harvest. 

Captain

Yes, good point Captian. I think those charts have been around for a while and probably date from when the standard practice was to begin chilling immediately after flameout. Also, those charts may have been based on commercial breweries, where it takes a long time to cool the large volume.

I look at it this way: boiling is bound to involve more evaporation of hop volatiles than a hop stand. I figure the more you retain, the better. 

Cheers,

Chrisitna.

[The Captain!!]

1 minute ago, ChristinaS1 said:

I look at it this way: boiling is bound to involve more evaporation of hop volatiles than a hop stand. I figure the more you retain, the better. 

Yep completely agree there. 

Caviet on that is depending on the hop I guess. Given that some hops bring different characteristics when added to the boil or hop stand. But I don’t know enough on particular hops to give examples. 

Captain

[Otto Von Blotto]

I've pretty much always added dry hops just before the cold crash or a few days out from packaging the beer if not cold crashing. As for 20 minute boil additions, for me with no-chilling they probably are somewhat a waste of time, but I use a 10 minute addition instead to sort of mimic what a 20 minute addition would bring. I then do reasonably sized flameout and cube hop additions; the cube hops have really improved my pale ales since I started doing this, along with dropping the IBUs down to the mid 30s instead of nearly 40.

I have no plans to brew a NEIPA though. From the sounds of it, the style lacks the firm bitterness I like in an IPA, aside from looking like dirty dishwater.

[Norris!]

Yeah I am going to have to agree with you Christina, a wine expert vs a brewer on the biotranformation. I did pick up that the NEIPA wasnt from homebrewers, I found that interesting but it made sense. In my personal experience I cannot say it makes a huge difference or not because usually there are so many hops going in it could get lost.

Cheers for the link it was insightful.

Norris