86 Days Pilsner or Golden Crown Lager

[Kairi]

Anyone able to offer any reviews (good or bad) on either of these kits? I have only brewed Ales so far and when the current brew has finished cold crashing and is bottled I was going to try my hand at a Lager.

 

I did a forum search but couldn't find much. I plan to ferment with Saflager w-34/70 in my temp controlled fridge and use the quick Lager method discussed in Otto's Bo Pils thread.

 

At the moment i'm leaning towards the 86 Days as i prefer the taste of a Pils with a bit of bite compared to most of the standard commercial offerings in Australia. I'm quite happy to go with the Golden Crown Lager if its a better kit. Either way i will use all malt with some late hop additions to lift it a bit.

 

I have ruled out using the OS Lager as i have read previous posts which gives me the opinion that its not Coopers best effort.

 

[porschemad911]

Hello,

 

I have an 86 Days in the fermenter at the moment. I chose to use this kit over the Golden Crown Lager for a hoppy new world lager because it a) has a decent level of bitterness and b) has a nice pale colour. Sounds like you would be happier with the 86 Days kit.

 

Cheers,

 

John

[ChristinaS1]

I have not tried the reforumlated Pilsner, but the old was was reasonably good. I have tried the Crown Lager kit twice. I am not a fan. It had very poor head retention and the flavour was disappointing. So I vote for the Pilsner kit.

 

We don't know what yeast come with either of these kits, whether it is the same or different, all we know is that they are a lager yeast. I would not be surprised if the Pilsner kit comes with 34/70, but not sure about the Crown Lager kit. In any case, you can probably chuck it in with your 34/70 when you make your starter.

 

Cheers,

 

Christina.

[Otto Von Blotto]

I'm a big fan of authentic pilsners as well, as evidenced by the thread of mine you refer to. If I was to brew one from a kit base I'd go the 86 Days one, I think it would be closer to the style you are aiming for than the Gold Crown kit.

[joolbag]

I just checked my notes from last September when I first got my brew fridge. The TC 86 Days Pilsner was my first temp-controlled brew.

 

I did enjoy it. I didn't muck around with it too much. The kit + 1.5kg Briess Pilsner LME. I did a 5min boil with 25g Saaz. 22L in fermenter.

 

It was an enjoyable kit beer. I didn't get it to ferment to a low SG though, I expected it to be a bit drier in the finish. Perhaps it is because I used two cans LME. 1.2kg of DME may have got me a lower FG as I have found DME more fermentable than LME.

 

For this brew, I used a slurry of M76 Bavarian Lager yeast to ferment the wort. The yeast definitely added a German influence - which was welcome in my Munich Helles, but distinctive (for lack of a better word) in a Pilsner. I suppose it could be a hybrid of the Czech Pils and German Pils given the hop and yeast combo.

 

I haven't tried Golden Crown, nor any commercial examples of Dortmunder Export beers. However, the style notes sound like this beer will appeal to me, so I am brewing an all-extract Dortmunder in the coming months.

 

To answer your Q, I would pick the 86 Days Pilsner. It has more favourable reviews on here than the relatively new Golden Crown.

[Otto Von Blotto]

They've changed the name of it in the BJCP guidelines now to "Czech Premium Pale Lager" instead of Bohemian Pilsner. Anyway, it suggests that the FG range is between 1.013 and 1.017 for this style so you're probably right where you should be jools.

 

In saying that, while I did use the style guide as a reference when brewing my own recipe, I prefer the beer to be of a lower FG than that, so while I've followed the style guide for most of it I did go outside it in that aspect to better suit my taste. I might try one with a higher temp mash next though and see if it's better or worse. Next time I have some Urquell on hand I'll take a sample and test its SG too, it would be interesting to see what it is because it doesn't seem like it's all that thick when you drink it.

[Kairi]

Thanks for the advice all. 86 days it is. I will run with the following which is basically a clone of the Czech Pils on the recipe page.

 

The 86 days kit

1kg LDME

25gr Saaz 10min boil

25gr Saaz 10min steep

Kit yeast + w-34/70

23ltr

Fast Lager method.

 

 

 

[joolbag]

Sounds like a winning recipe Kairi. Should get a nice Saaz influence into the final beer.

 

Kelsey, I had an Urquell not that long ago. Now that I think about it, it isn't a dry finishing lager. I did a side-by-side tasting of my beer and the Urquell and the differences there, but subtle. I was very happy with my attempt and I think an extract or all-grain brew, bittered with Saaz like your Bo Pils recipe and fermented using the right yeast should get it bang on.

 

Haven't yet done an AG lager. Bo Pils might be the one!

[Otto Von Blotto]

Agreed, it does look like a nice recipe. It's probably good to start with a small amount of hops and work up if needed.

 

I have another one of my AG ones going into the FV on Tuesday which contains 150g of Saaz late (100g at 10 mins and 50g flameout steep), if it's anything like the one that's ready to be kegged using the same schedule it'll be awesome. I hadn't tried a flameout steep with this recipe before but after tasting the FG samples of this currently CCing one, I think I'm gonna keep doing it.

 

I have done side by side tests with the real Urquell in the past and while the flavors and color are almost identical, and I couldn't tell much difference in the mouthfeel despite mine finishing at 1.007/8, the home brewed ones always lacked some aroma. I'm hoping this flameout hop steep fixes that, maybe not to the level of the real Urquell but improved from what it was without it. I'll find out soon when that batch goes on tap.

[Kairi]

I have finally got around to putting this Pills down. I have actually had a crack at 2 kits to do a comparison. The Coopers 86 days and Morgan's golden Saaz. Both with 1kg of DME and 25gr of Saaz steeped for 10mins and added to the FV, 21 ltr volume. I used the Coopers kit tin yeast plus 34/70 for the 86 days and Morgan's Golden Saaz 2 packets 34/70, both lots of yeast were rehydrated.

 

The brew fridge is set to 13 and they are both bubbling away nicely. Pitched at 20 Deg and got down to temp in about 8 hours.

 

One thing I noticed was the Morgan's OG sample was considerably lighter in colour than the Coopers sample.

[porschemad911]

One thing I noticed was the Morgan's OG sample was considerably lighter in colour than the Coopers sample.

I have been sampling my 86 Days pils over the last week or so, and I agree that the colour is not as light as I would expect for a pilsner. Tastes great though!

[Otto Von Blotto]

Depends on the pilsner I suppose... Urquell is quite a golden color rather than pale straw.

[Kairi]

Colour doesn't worry me at all just as long a it tastes good.

 

It's been 4.5 days in the fermenters and i am amazed at how quick they are fermenting out. Everything I have read about Lagers had me thinking the fridge was going to be tied up for 6 weeks.

The Golden Saaz is down to 1016 and the 86 Days is down to 1022.

 

I have a theory as to why the 86 Days is a bit slower. The kit yeast with the 34/70 was less total yeast than the 2 packets of 34/70 used in the Goldenn Saaz. Add to that the Coopers kit yeast was not kept in the Fridge at the LHBS like the 34/70 so the viable cells dropped even more and the position of the 2nd fermenter which has the Golden Saaz is at the bottom of the fridge away from the evaporator so is probably half a degree warmer.

 

I can now see why pitching the correct amount of yeast is very important.

 

Time to bump up the temp control to 18 deg for a few days to finish it off and cold crash for 2 weeks.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Yeah, when I did my first properly done lager I was wondering why people were saying it takes like 3 weeks just to get to FG... I guess they must not have been pitching very much yeast . As you've now experienced, the reality is that they do not take anything like that long to ferment out when things are done properly. You'll likely find they're both at FG in 10 days or less from pitching day.

 

I really enjoy making pilsners and occasionally other styles of lagers (I did one with some home grown Hallertau last year that came out really well) and I'm always happy to see someone else having success with it too. They aren't difficult but they do require a little more attention than ales, however it's totally worth it.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[Tricky Micky]

On 5/11/2017 at 7:14 AM, Otto Von Blotto said:

I'm a big fan of authentic pilsners as well, as evidenced by the thread of mine you refer to. If I was to brew one from a kit base I'd go the 86 Days one, I think it would be closer to the style you are aiming for than the Gold Crown kit.

Hey Otto,

are you able to supply a link to your quick lager method post? TIA

[Marty_G]

1 minute ago, Mickep said:

Hey Otto,

are you able to supply a link to your quick lager method post? TIA

At hte risk of answering for Otto, think you will find it is something like this ferment schedule.   Ferment at 10-12c until the SG is around 1020, or dropped 2/3rds of the points needed, then up the temp to 20-22 for a d-rest and let it ferment out to FG. Then cold crash it to ~1c and leave it in the FV for about a week.   This way it goes from kit to bottle in about 14 days.   If that is not the method it will be close too it.       

 

Or alternately you can use a Kveik yeast, I use Voss, and ferment that at the lower end of the temp range so around 24c. It will give a pseudo lager with the crisp lager profile. It will take about 8 days till it is ready to bottle and needs no D-rest.  If you cold crash it will take a bit longer but just cold crash it for a couple of days  I use that method for my Asian style rice lagers.  Works a treat as there is no need for a traditional lagering period. 

[Tricky Micky]

11 minutes ago, MartyG1525230263 said:

23 minutes ago, Mickep said:

Hey Otto,

are you able to supply a link to your quick lager method post? TIA

At hte risk of answering for Otto, think you will find it is something like this ferment schedule.   Ferment at 10-12c until the SG is around 1020, or dropped 2/3rds of the points needed, then up the temp to 20-22 for a d-rest and let it ferment out to FG. Then cold crash it to ~1c and leave it in the FV for about a week.   This way it goes from kit to bottle in about 14 days.   If that is not the method it will be close too it.       

 

Or alternately you can use a Kveik yeast, I use Voss, and ferment that at the lower end of the temp range so around 24c. It will give a pseudo lager with the crisp lager profile. It will take about 8 days till it is ready to bottle and needs no D-rest.  If you cold crash it will take a bit longer but just cold crash it for a couple of days  I use that method for my Asian style rice lagers.  Works a treat as there is no need for a traditional lagering period. 

Cheers Marty,

I've been using that method so I'm on track. Thanks for the feedback mate. Interesting about the Kveik yeast method. I've been D-resting for about 3 days (when I'm a few points away from FG) and then cold crashing for about 5 days after that. Bottle and wait 14 days before putting one in the fridge for a taste test.

[Tricky Micky]

http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/

[Otto Von Blotto]

That brulosophy method is what I adapted mine from but there are some slight differences, more so after the fermentation. Rather than drop it straight down I slowly ramp it down to 3 degrees over a few days then leave it for 1.5-2 weeks before kegging it. 

At the start I try to get the wort at or below ferment temperature before pitching the yeast as well, as I find it produces a bit better beer than pitching warm.  You need a lot of yeast to do that though. 

Edited October 29, 2020 by Otto Von Blotto

[Tricky Micky]

16 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

That brulosophy method is what I adapted mine from but there are some slight differences, more so after the fermentation. Rather than drop it straight down I slowly ramp it down to 3 degrees over a few days then leave it for 1.5-2 weeks before kegging it. 

At the start I try to get the wort at or below ferment temperature before pitching the yeast as well, as I find it produces a bit better beer than pitching warm.  You need a lot of yeast to do that though. 

Thanks Otto, Can you elaborate with regards to pitching temp? That's interesting. You get a slightly better beer, in what way? This is great stuff by the way thanks.

[Otto Von Blotto]

2 hours ago, Mickep said:

Thanks Otto, Can you elaborate with regards to pitching temp? That's interesting. You get a slightly better beer, in what way? This is great stuff by the way thanks.

I find the flavour is a bit cleaner. I don't know exactly why but I suspect it's due to pitching more yeast than would be required at warmer temperatures, so less reproduction, as well as the temperature being lower to begin with. 

[jamiek86]

thought I would revive this old thread as I now have my second 86 days pilsner in fv going nicely with 2cm krausen and the eggy smell that I have only ever got a few times. the first one came out lovely and still have most of it left brewed on 15 to 16 degrees 2 packs coopers lager yeast from tins unknown sazz hop tea on day 6. my scales hadn't arrived. this one 11.5 grams saflager s189 going nicely on 15.8 degrees put 30 grams sazz in 10 min steep with ingredients before into fv. both brews used tin and 1.25 kg ldm and 22 litres.  the only golden crown I done was with one packet yeast same malt and brewed at 24 degrees before I had fridge and realised it was lager yeast not the best taste. I will do another GC with same yeast and malt and hops to compare but I get the feeling that the 86 days kit is better but like anything its personal taste.

[Liambeer]

Just reviving an old post. 
 

I’m pretty boring, I like the os coopers lager but went to the lhbs and saw the Thomas coopers lager and grabbed it. 
 

anyone done a comparison between the two? Or did I just pay more for the same goop?

[Pints]

33 minutes ago, Liambeer said:

Just reviving an old post. 
 

I’m pretty boring, I like the os coopers lager but went to the lhbs and saw the Thomas coopers lager and grabbed it. 
 

anyone done a comparison between the two? Or did I just pay more for the same goop?

I've only done the os lager, but would love to hear a comparison too. The TC lager is probably going to be a different and possibly better version.

[Shamus O'Sean]

1 hour ago, Liambeer said:

Just reviving an old post. 
 

I’m pretty boring, I like the os coopers lager but went to the lhbs and saw the Thomas coopers lager and grabbed it. 
 

anyone done a comparison between the two? Or did I just pay more for the same goop?

I think you will like the TC Golden Crown Lager.  It is a different brew.  Comes with a proper lager yeast.  Best fermented around 12-13°C until SG drops below 1.020.  Then up to 18°C for a diacetyl rest and to finish off.  Cold crash for 4-5 days and add finings if you can.

I used it in what I called a Royal Pilsner.  Instead of LDM or LME, I did a mini-mash with 2kg of Pilsner Malt.  It turned out a smashing beer.

For comparative purposes, for me, Brew No. 1 was the OS Lager.  Brew No. 58 was the Royal Pilsner.  58 was much, much betterer.  I learnt a lot across 58 brews though.

Some of the brewers on here say they get good results with the OS Lager kit using a real lager yeast.  Grain additions, like a 300g steep of some Carapils, help too.  A dry hop of Saaz, Hallertauer, Tettnang would also help.  The TC Golden Crown Lager probably already has some of those additions through its brewing process.  Probably bittered with one of those hops, whereas the OG Lager is probably just Pride of Ringwood.  Hence, with just some LDM, why the TC is better.