headmaster Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Hi Fellow brewers, Was hoping for some cross checks and suggestions on my plan for my beginner brew no.3, after brewing an OSLager and APA. Bought a Coopers Euro Lager a few weeks ago, probably would have preferred to buy the Pilsner but was not on the shelf. In any case my fav lager is Pilsner Urquell, and wanted to start on a journey to somehow approximate this great beer. I realise without the right water this would be difficult, but in any case, this is what I am planning, please let me know if I've got something wrong here in method or amounts: 1 Euro Lager Can 1.5kg LDME Saaz hops pellets 200g Carapils cracked specialty grain 1 sachet Saflager W-34/70 11.5g Method: 1. Rehydrate yeast at 23°c 2. Steep grain in 2ltrs 70°c boiled water for 20 mins (maintaining at 70° in oven) 3. Lift out grain and boil liquid for 10 mins, with 20g of Saaz pellets. 4. Pour into FV on top of the LDME, swirl and mix, add Coopers Can Euro lager. 5. Add water and chilled water in brew fridge to target pitching temp of about 23°c. 6. Pitch rehydrated yeast. 7. Leave at 23° for about 12 hrs, confirm yeast is beginning to generate activity, then ramp down to primary fermenting temp of 12°c over the next 12-24hrs. 8. Dry hop 30g Saaz in Razzamatazz stocking for 48hrs when krausen is almost subsided 9. Aim for 2-3 week primary checking gravity at 7 days and 14 days. 10. Lager at 1°c for 3-5 weeks in the same FV 11. Bottle, expect about a 4 week carb time. 12. Enjoy. What do you learned folks think about this plan? I could rack to another coopers FV for lagering, but a little concerned about the headspace for oxidisation. I guess I could rack when still active to ensure CO2 will protect the brew, or add a bit more sugar to do the same. Seems that even over a few weeks the problem of yeast eating the dead cells and affecting the flavour may not be a big deal, even less so at 1°c? I'm just guessing with the hop quantities and boil, some ideas and opinions about how this would taste would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks Mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnaman Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 G'day headmaster, I see no great problems with your recipe and the amount of hops, I have made the Czehc Pils and for my taste some more hops is the direction I would adopt. I would how ever recommend a diacetyl rest in the fermentation, it will happen in the bottle but takes a long time in my experience, you may find this link of interest? correct lagering technique Hope this is helpful. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antiphile Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Gidday The recipe I have for an Urquell clone is for an extract (and mini-mash and AG). Yet, I'm sure you can adjust it for the size of the batch using a kit. All the best Edit added 1:50pm. 8. Dry hop 30g Saaz in Razzamatazz stocking for 48hrs when krausen is almost subsided Firstly, you may or may not see a krausen of any significance, and I wouldn't use it's subsidence as a way to time the dry hopping. May I suggest you consider using your SG readings as a measure when to dry hop, or just chuck them in on Day 10. Secondly, I'm not all that keen on Razzamatazz. I find they are a little rough on the legs, especially if you drop hop pellets in them. They also ladder really easily. Go for quality and buy some pure silk stockings. You'll never look back and your fetishist friends will be very envious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 https://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=24 This yeast might be better, or you could try this here link which explains about Bohemian Pilsners and yeasts to use, which is what Pilsner Urquell is. I too am a fan of this beer. https://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_styledetails.cfm?ID=127 I'm planning to brew an AG pilsner later in the year when the temp drops, so I'll probably pick up one of those yeast strains to ferment it with. W34/70 is a yeast that I also like, but I find it better suited to German style lagers. Having said that, 34/70 will still produce a tasty beer, it just might not be as close to Pilsner Urquell. Your method sounds fine and for a 3-5 week lagering period I don't see any need to transfer to a secondary. I use basically the same method for my lagers and they're always enjoyable. RE the diacetyl rest, if you choose to do it during primary fermentation, simply raise the temp up to about 16 degrees, when it's around 75% finished, and leave it there until it's finished. Then proceed with lagering at 1C. Hope that helps a bit mate! Cheers Kelsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headmaster Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 Many thanks you you all, your advice is much appreciated. I had forgotten about the diacetyl rest, and I guess I had been reading that bottle carbing will do this for it anyway, but looking at the above, it might take a long time in the bottle, I will schedule this in for end of primary fermentation. Interesting that the recipe you linked antiphile, in the small print suggests what I assume is a diacetyl rest after lagering, that is bring up from 1°c to 15°c for three days before bottling 'to ensure fermentation is complete'. Interesting to note that the lagering instructions also say to slowly reduce temp for lagering, rather than head straight for close to zero, that is, start lagering at 7°c and slowly reduce temps to 1°c over a two week period. I wonder if some of the clone recipes are so closely based on the commercial practice, that they mimic the restrictions of brewing on a very large scale. For eg, I cant imagine a brewery could drop a couple hundred thousand litres of beer 10 degrees or so in a hurry.. Have already bought the Saflager yeast so will go with that one, and try the wyeast for next time, I didn't know that this was truer to style. Also might add some more saaz close to the end of the 10 min boil, maybe 10g or so, and lower the amount of dry hops to 20g. One of the interesting and fun things about brewing like this, is the anticipation of what it will be like. I guess the combinations are endless and good or bad, the results are unique! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Hi Headmaster. Also might add some more saaz close to the end of the 10 min boil' date=' maybe 10g or so, and lower the amount of dry hops to 20g.[/quote']I would advise against dry hopping the Saaz. The hop presents a very grassy tone when used this way & I would suggest will impact on your beer in a negative way. Making a hop tea or adding it late into the boil will alleviate this issue. Everyone I've spoken to about this, & all the literature I've read supports this. Dry Hopping Saaz chit chat In Coopers DIY Czech Pilsner recipe the hop is used as a hop tea (boiled situation) for just this reason I would suggest. Cheers & good luck with the brew, Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headmaster Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 Cheers for that Beerlust, Come to think of it, I think I've read the same thing in my travels around the brewing forums. antiphiles linked recipe called for only 14g I think to dry hop, and possibly with the expected lagering time and bottle time, the remaining aroma may be so little that it works out ok. To avoid the potential grassiness problem however I think I will omit the dry hop step, of if I do add some, make it 10g or so. Might taste/smell it before deciding to add or not after primary fermentation has finished to see what sort of saaz aromas are there already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headmaster Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 antiphile, I hear you with the stockings, I was in a hurry and just grabbed what they had at woolworths. Actually they didn't have any NUDE ones for my first purchase, so I bought some light tan ones thinking how much harm could they do. Well after a little bit of boiling, the water turned a rather stimulating shade of bronze. So for anyone considering using stockings for brewing, make sure to get the nude color. May even be wise to boil, rinse and boil again in new water to extract whatever chemicals the industrial engineers have dreamt up to make SWMBO legs look great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattrox Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Hi Fellow brewers' date=' Was hoping for some cross checks and suggestions on my plan for my beginner brew no.3, after brewing an OSLager and APA. Bought a Coopers Euro Lager a few weeks ago, probably would have preferred to buy the Pilsner but was not on the shelf. In any case my fav lager is Pilsner Urquell, and wanted to start on a journey to somehow approximate this great beer. I realise without the right water this would be difficult, but in any case, this is what I am planning, please let me know if I've got something wrong here in method or amounts: 1 Euro Lager Can 1.5kg LDME Saaz hops pellets 200g Carapils cracked specialty grain 1 sachet Saflager W-34/70 11.5g Method: 1. Rehydrate yeast at 23°c 2. Steep grain in 2ltrs 70°c boiled water for 20 mins (maintaining at 70° in oven) 3. Lift out grain and boil liquid for 10 mins, with 20g of Saaz pellets. 4. Pour into FV on top of the LDME, swirl and mix, add Coopers Can Euro lager. 5. Add water and chilled water in brew fridge to target pitching temp of about 23°c. 6. Pitch rehydrated yeast. 7. Leave at 23° for about 12 hrs, confirm yeast is beginning to generate activity, then ramp down to primary fermenting temp of 12°c over the next 12-24hrs. 8. Dry hop 30g Saaz in Razzamatazz stocking for 48hrs when krausen is almost subsided 9. Aim for 2-3 week primary checking gravity at 7 days and 14 days. 10. Lager at 1°c for 3-5 weeks in the same FV 11. Bottle, expect about a 4 week carb time. 12. Enjoy. What do you learned folks think about this plan? I could rack to another coopers FV for lagering, but a little concerned about the headspace for oxidisation. I guess I could rack when still active to ensure CO2 will protect the brew, or add a bit more sugar to do the same. Seems that even over a few weeks the problem of yeast eating the dead cells and affecting the flavour may not be a big deal, even less so at 1°c? I'm just guessing with the hop quantities and boil, some ideas and opinions about how this would taste would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks Mark. [/quote'] I'd pitch at 23 then put it in the fridge to get cooling. The time it takes to cool it to 12 eill be enough for the yeast to start doing it's stuff. You are more likely to avoid off flavours this way..... combined with a diacetyl rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben 10 Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I'd pitch cold and use two packets. And follow this... http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headmaster Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 I was worried about this, but didn't exactly want to buy two packs at $6 a pop, maybe I'm being tight, but thought the difference may not be that much, as the bulk of fermentation will be cold? My other options: 1. pitch the coopers euro lager 7g packet as well, but have no idea what lager yeast that is, and don't like the idea of mixing. 2. what about making a miniwort 2ltr starter with 10% by weight LDME at brewing temp? 3. Split the difference and start at around 16-17°c? This yeast has a range of I think 9 to 22, ideal 12 - 15c. dosage from saf for this yeast : 0.8 to 1.2 g/litre for pitching at 12C – 15°C (53-59°F). $12 for yeast is almost as much as the whole euro can.. Another trip to the LHBS is also a bit out of the way for me by the weekend... Edit, As suggest by Mattrox, start ramping down the temp just after pitching sounds like option 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antiphile Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I see where B10 is coming from. And if I were a "purist" (with a good sized wallet) I'd go that way as well. Yet, for me at least, life is full of compromises. If I've decided what I'm brewing and I have a few days notice, I generally do a starter and step it up sufficiently so I'm pitching the equivalent of 1.5 to 2 grams of dry yeast per litre for a lager/pilsner. Then with that cell count, pitching cold is my preferred method. If the rate is equivalent to 1 to 1.5 g per litre, I'll pitch warm and bring the temp down to the "ideal" temp. But don't be too concerned (IMHO) about mixing W34/70 and the Coopers Euro Lager kit yeast together. Both are pure lager yeast strains, very clean fermenters, and very neutral in terms of added flavours. I had a house strain made of these two (about 60% W34/70 and 40% Coopers pure lager yeast) that I have used many many times. It's still my favourite bottom fermenting strain combo. Be goodish! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headmaster Posted February 5, 2015 Author Share Posted February 5, 2015 Thanks Phil, Edit : I now cannot be sure the photos I posted were from the lager can, will need to check when I get home tonight] By the way, here are a couple of photos of the yeast pack that came with the Euro Lager. As far as I can see, looks the same as the ale yeasts, with no coopers yeast codes such as Ac or L or A etc, just a Julian code for manufacture date, 275th day of 2014 I think? And 'INT' which I assume means international series. But there are ales in this series as well. Anyone know if there is a way to identify coopers Lager yeast packets? Edit: Photos removed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben 10 Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 INT is Ac + L Ac = Coopers ale yeast (our own strain, not the same as the yeast in our commercial ales, developed in-house and propagated under contract). A = ale yeast and L = lager yeast (these strains are commercially available dry yeast and their details are held in confidence). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antiphile Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 That is really weird because the Euro Lager should come with a pure lager strain. See the Coopers Yeast Thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headmaster Posted February 5, 2015 Author Share Posted February 5, 2015 Yeah Phil, I need to check at home, there's a chance that was a photo of some APA supplied yeast, that would make sense. I have the one supplied with my lager can in the fridge labelled with permanent marker, will check it out tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headmaster Posted February 5, 2015 Author Share Posted February 5, 2015 Sorry about the confusion there.. Sorry to pick your brains again, but when I'm boiling the wort obtained from the crystal carapils to sterilise, is it fine to use that opportunity to throw my hops in that are intended for a 10 minute boil? I was planning on using 2 litres with 200G of Carapils. That may result in a lower gravity than usually used for hops boils I suppose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben 10 Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Sorry to pick your brains again' date=' but when I'm boiling the wort obtained from the crystal carapils to sterilise, is it fine to use that opportunity to throw my hops in that are intended for a 10 minute boil? [/quote'] That is the way to go. Often people willadd 500g DME, bring the volume up to 5 litres and boil that. You will be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headmaster Posted February 5, 2015 Author Share Posted February 5, 2015 Regarding the yeast pitching dilemma, I have decided that I will pitch both the 11.5g Saflager W34/70 and 7g kit yeast, and aim for a start temp of around 15°c put in brewfridge immediately, set to 12°c with probe strapped to FV behind styrofoam. Looking at the Coopers lager recipes, from what I could find, the ones that called for using the kit lager yeast and a commercial yeast, they all were partnered with W34/70. This would imply that the kit yeast is highly likely to be the same or close to identical strain. They could easily call for s-189 or S-23 but it's always W34/70. Coincidence??! It, and other yeasts that seem to have the same origin from the original german strain seem to be a very widely used right across the euro brewing industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben 10 Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Good luck bud, let us know how you go please with pics and tasting notes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headmaster Posted February 5, 2015 Author Share Posted February 5, 2015 I will do and thanks. Just checked the lager kit yeast, my mistake, it has a 'P' after the Julian code not an 'INT'. No 'L' but I have seen that to be the lager strain in the notes. So its something like 17414 P, mid 2014 manufacture. Have used an online calc to work out how much cold water I will need to target my temp. Thought it best not to use ice, as might scratch the FV. http://www.onlineconversion.com/mixing_water.htm Took a stab and assumed my 2000ml of boiled water might end up at about 80c after adding LDME and warmed can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headmaster Posted February 12, 2015 Author Share Posted February 12, 2015 Have just bottled my first brew from my brew fridge, an APA last Saturday. Small cascade hops 3 min boil and dry hopped with same, 1xBE2 + 500gLDME fermented at 16c for 2 weeks, 1046-1010, cold conditioned for 7 days at 0.5c. Beer was pretty much clear and much less yeast sediment in bottom of bottles evident. Carbing up fine in the bottles by the PET squeeze test. Sunday 8th feb put down this Euro Lager Pils as discussed in this thread sunday night after the tin lids had gone to bed. Re hydrated Saflager W34/70 and kit yeast in 200ml 23c water. (yeast colour and appearance between these two was identical) 200g carapils specialty grain 30 min steep in 2litres 65° water Removed and squeezed grain, stirred in 100 g LDME, brought to boil, 10 min boil. 25 g saaz ten mins 15 g 3 mins saaz hops. Put 1.5 kg LDME in FV Poured boil in, stirred by picking up FV and swirling. Added pre-heated Euro lager can Had 21 litres of 10° water in brew fridge in 2nd clean FV Calculated that final temp would be 16c if added to 2 litres 50c wort mix. Wort mix was pretty much 50c after doing the above Added cold wated, trying to slosh it in with force to generate O2 in the mix. Whipped it a bit more with a idophor sanitised chefs whisk. Size 23ltrs OG 1047 Starting temp 16c -17c Prog brew fridge to 12c Was 12c in the morning the next day Two little bubble clusters in middle of the top of wort the size of two 10c coins after 12 hrs, same 24hrs, yeast layer 5mm on bottom sides the only real sign of activity. 36 hours krausen hump in middle. Light film krausen across the whole surface at 48hours yesterday 11 feb wed turned down to 11c, about 8mm krausen across whole surface. I plan to Diacetyl rest at 6 to 10 points to go, however I am not sure about expected final gravity, as I used 1.5kg of LDME, no dex or other refined sugar. My APA had BE2 and 500g LDME, FG was 1010. Should I expect the FG to be somewhere between 1010 and 1015, assuming my yeast is healthy and well enough populated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headmaster Posted February 12, 2015 Author Share Posted February 12, 2015 One other question I have, the hydogen sulfide rotten egg gas smell I have read about when brewing with lager yeasts is not there at all to date, it smells sweet as. Should I expect this smell at these brewing temps I'm using of 11-12 deg c? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnaman Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 G'day headmaster, I used a similar yeast combo and rehydrated it at similar temp and got no strong sulphur smells either. I use IanH spreadsheet, download here, you will need to register to get it, I think you will find it very helpful guide. I got FG: 1012 so your in the cricket ground, look out for bouncers. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headmaster Posted February 12, 2015 Author Share Posted February 12, 2015 Cheers Magnaman, will give that a shot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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