Anyone for a Knappstein Enterprise Lager?

[Guest]

Hiya guys.

 

A clever forum co-inhabitant raised his like of "Nelson Sauvin Hops" recently, in an older thread I started regarding "True AUS Pale Ale". His name shall remain anonymous...NOT!

His name be 'AdamH'. [biggrin]

 

Funny, I just returned from the bottlo with some Pacific Ale. I think they use Nelson Sauvin?

AdamH's comments sent me spiraling into a frenzied want for the best Nelson Sauvin hops beer I have ever tasted, once again. That beer is "Knappstein Enterprise Lager".

 

For those that don't know the beer. . .

 

Knappstein Brewery

 

I remember enjoying a period a few years back where I was swilling these fairly regularly. Great beer!

 

Thus I have (thanks to AdamH) been buying a few of these again regularly against my will.... to now be at a point where it is becoming too regularly. Time to have a crack at making a version of this beer.

 

Normally I'd make what I call a "control brew" where I start with very basic ingredients & build flavours & aromas & bitterness & depth etc..from there, but I'd like to move a little further forward at step 1 this time if possible.

 

Of those that know & have tasted this beer, what do you think of this recipe. . .

 

Thomas Coopers Pilsner 1.7kg

Light Dry Malt Powder 500gms

Dried Wheat Malt Powder 250gms

Honey 375gms (substituted for 300gms Dextrose)

Maltodextrin 250gms

Cluster or Saaz hops 15gms @ 40mins

Nelson Sauvin hops 15gms @ 15mins

Nelson Sauvin hops 10gms @ 5mins

Kit yeast for 1st time @ bat.

 

I'd be interested in everyones thoughts.

 

Beer.

[NewtownClown]

I am with you!

I am not a big fan of Lagers but adore the Knappstein [love]

I made an AG last year (I dont have the recipe at hand but can post it later if anyone wants), so damn good that the keg was emptied in one poker night as the other two taps remained dry.

 

NS hops really shine in this beer but dont dominate the malts. If you enjoy Sauvignon wine you will love this.

 

I also did an English Old Ale (8.5%ABV) and aroma hopped with NS [love]

 

NS can be a little too "winey" in pale ales and I find them best when blended with an American "C" hop.

[NewtownClown]

As for your recipe.

I think it will end up with too much body. You want to keep it under 1.010 FG.

At least lose the Malto-dextrin and up the wheat.

Good idea to keep it simple first time. But I would go simpler (it IS a lager, after all)

I would drop it to 21 litres, lose the malto-dextrin and honey and up the dry wheat to 500g

OR

make it to 23 litres as above and add 300 g of the honey..

 

my 2 cents

[Hairy]

NS can be a little too "winey" in pale ales and I find them best when blended with an American "C" hop.

Good point. I recently tried a single hop Nelson Sauvin pale ale and whilst drinkable, it wasn't one of my favourite flavours.

 

However I enjoy it combined with cascade.

[PhilboBaggins]

However I enjoy it combined with cascade.

 

Took the words right out of my mouth Hairy. Probably my favourite combination.

[Guest]

Thanks for all the input guys. Much appreciated.

 

I'm gonna go with NewtonClown's advice & not add extra body to the beer. No Maltodextrin. However, I am not going to increase the additional wheat malt measurement & just leave it at 250gms. I just had a look at Coopers advice on making this Pilsner in their style, & they make no mention of additional wheat malt for this brew, which leads me to believe there is enough in the kit tin.

 

I only bottle down to near 1-2 litres off the bottom of the fermenter each time so brewing a 21 litre brew is almost blasphemy to me! haha! [lol]

So it will be a 23 litre brew with the honey (I've grown quite attached to using it in place of dextrose in most situations now).

 

Also, I've always home brewed at temperatures above 20\xb0C because I have always been able to regulate temperature via a heating mat in cooler times of the year. However this brew Coopers recommend maintaining a temperature below 20\xb0C for best results (As I expected). Unfortunately I don't currently have the equipment to be able control & regulate temperatures below 20\xb0C, but I do have a cooler area of my house where the temperature should not exceed that temperature or fluctuate by too much (I wouldn't think) throughout the primary ferment.

 

Will I be ok? & what starting temperature would you recommend I have my FV at before pitching the yeast?

 

Your thoughts would be welcomed.

 

[Hairy]

The Thomas Coopers Pilsener comes with a lager yeast so it should be brewed between 9-15 degrees. 12 degrees is a good temperature.

 

I wouldn't brew this at 20 degrees.

 

You could try putting the FV in a tub of water and adding ice bricks to lower the temp.

 

The other option is to get some ale yeast and brew an ale. It definitely won't be the same beer though.

 

Otherwise you may need to wait until the middle of next winter.

 

The pilsener is a nice kit [love]

[Guest]

12-15\xb0C it shall be.

 

Thanks Hairy. [cool]

[Hairy]

If you are using the kit yeast it is only 7g. Pitch it at around 20 degrees and leave it around that for a day to build up the yeast. Then drop it down to your fermenting temp.

 

Or get yourself an 11.5g packet of lager yeast like S-23, W-34/70 or S-189. Pitch both this and the kit yeast at your fermenting temp.

[Guest]

Hi Hairy.

 

I was going to save this line of questioning for another time & another thread, but since you've provided the entrance information, I'll ask away now...

 

For us Noobie brewers (me included on this topic) who understand very little about the impact of yeast on a brew can you explain the following...

 

If you are using the kit yeast it is only 7g. Pitch it at around 20 degrees and leave it around that for a day to build up the yeast. Then drop it down to your fermenting temp.

No.1 Can you explain that fully in layman's terms? Such as where it is pitched @ 20\xb0, what it is pitched into & how that is then pitched into your fermenter?

 

Or get yourself an 11.5g packet of lager yeast like S-23, W-34/70 or S-189. Pitch both this and the kit yeast at your fermenting temp.

No.2 I've used kits that have yeast packets of 5gms, 7gms, & 11.5 gms thus far. Can you explain (again in layman's terms) why there is such diversity in yeast quantities across the board for beer recipes, & more importantly for this recipe, why you would suggest I pitch 18.5gms of yeast at this brew for primary fermentation?

 

For a novice such as myself, I find the differing yeast volumes from recipe to recipe very hard to understand & gain any sort of rule guidelines to follow in my attempts to make good quality beer.

 

It's all very confusing. [pinched]

[Hairy]

Hey Beerlust

 

Pitching refers to adding the yeast to the FV. So when I said to pitch at 20 degrees, this means to add the yeast to the FV with the wort at 20 degrees.

 

Under pitching yeast (ie. not using enough yeast) can stress the yeast and lead to unwanted flavours in a beer. It is important that you pitch sufficient healthy yeast for a good fermentation.

 

Take a look at the Mr Malty website (link below). There is a calculator to help you work out how much yeast you should be pitching. Generally you need to pitch more yeast for a lager, especially if you are pitching at a cooler temp.

 

The coopers kit yeasts are 7g and these are hardy yeasts. This will get you through a standard gravity beer (1040 in 21-23 litres) but for bigger beers you are under pitching. Also, you don't know how the stores have treated the kit. If they have been left in hot conditions then you may not end up with 7g of healthy yeast.

 

As for 5g packets for some kits, that is just crazy and they are trying to save money at the expense of your final product.

 

Mr Malty's Pitching Rate Calculator

[Guest]

Thanks for clarification Hairy. (I secretly believe it has helped more than just my own useless self!)

 

Thanks for the Yeast Pitch calculator link too. (I've bookmarked it) & will use as I experiment with different yeasts & styles.

 

Since you are so forthcoming with info on yeasts atm, are there any issues or dangers from pitching more than a required amount of yeast?

 

Beer.

[Beerlust]

Hi guys.

 

Sorry to drag up an old thread, but this is one I started, & one I never actually got around to attempting to brew as I honestly felt I was out of my depth despite the good advice I received at the time.

 

This commercial beer was THE beer that opened my eyes to the craft beer scene & what beer could really taste like with some effort & interest in certain areas. The current beer presented under this title I believe to be a mere shadow of the original I was drinking many years ago now due to the sale of the brewery to one of the prominent megaswill breweries some time back.

 

The beer I just adored back then had a solid malt bill, solid bitterness, good flavour & particularly aroma of a hop I soon learned to be known as "Nelson Sauvin".

 

After all this time, & looking back on Hairy's comments here, I feel his view of how to approach making a beer in the vein of the Enterprise lager still holds up based on what I remember of the commercial beer. Cascade bittered/flavoured & Nelson Sauvin flavoured/aroma'd.

 

This thought process is on the back of my recent re-brewing the DIY Nelson's Light beer. Citrus background with the Nelson Sauvin gooseberry finishing flavours & aromas. For those unfamiliar with the Knappstein Enterprise lager, it tasted like a cross of Little Creatures Pale Ale & PB2's Nelson's Light, but lager yeast fermented.

 

I have the ingredients (bar a lager yeast) so MUST have a crack at brewing something close to this beer soon.

 

In the process I hope to teach the "Tom Selleck Crew" about the value of using flavoursome bittering hops!

 

I'll post a recipe listing in the next week.

 

Lusty.

[Hairy]

Ah, back in the days when I was helpful

[MarkC]

I'd forgotten that Knappstein was owned by Lion, a sure fire way of killing a lovely small scale operation. Hopefully craft brewers will continue to pop up faster than they're acquired.

Thankfully we've got lots of solid craft brewers here, like Clare Valley, Little Bang, Lobethal Bierhaus, Goodesons, Big Shed, Mismatch, Wheaty etc...

[Beerlust]

I'm going to have another crack at something like this beer over the weekend.

I probably will look to use some Vienna malt in future attempts but this malt grist will do for now. I really want to get the hop balance right first. There's a bitter apricot-like flavour I remember from the original beer combined with a lovely smooth malt flavour & that unmistakable Nelson Sauvin aroma. Pure heaven to drink. 

Enterprising Lager V.3:

Briess Pilsen Malt Liquid Malt extract 1.5kg

Light Dry Malt extract 1kg

Coopers Ale Malt grain 500gms

Munich Malt grain 350gms

Light Crystal malt grain 100gms

Mt. Hood 10gms @ 60mins

Cascade 40gms @ 30mins

Nelson Sauvin 20gms @ 2mins

Nelson Sauvin 40gms dry hopped

2 x W34/70 yeast rehydrated

Brewed to 21 litres

Ferment @ approx. 13°C

OG = approx. 1.049, FG = approx. 1.008

IBU = 40.3, kegged ABV = approx. 5.2%

I'm using a new online brewing calculator for this recipe because IanH's spreadsheet shited itself via Excel.

Damn windows 10 system update appears to have screwed it for good! 

BTW, anyone know how to eliminate this double line spacing??

Cheers,

Lusty.

[The Captain!!]

Good to see your going to give this one a crack again lusty.

Recipe looks very nice. Look forward to hearing how this is in the glass. And seeing if your grail is closer. 

As for the line editor I think it was shift-enter from memory. But I only use my phone so I really don’t know how.

Obviously 40g dry hop is enough for you. I usually do a minimum 80g dry hop.

Are you choosing to be a little subtle with the Nelson or is that “normal” size dry hop for you?

Captain

[Beerlust]

Hiya Captain.

Nelson Sauvin is pretty potent, & I find I don't have to use as much of this hop when dry hopping/steeping. I could blast this brew with 80gms+, but feel it would be a bit of a waste.

Maybe a little early, but I'm starting to manage a few varieties I have in storage. If previous seasons are anything to go by, unavailability of some varieties 3-4 months out from the new season stock has been common place. Nelson Sauvin is one of those varieties hardest hit. Last year again there was a shortage leading into Xmas, & an all organic version hit the shelves after the regular stuff was depleted. It was very expensive!

It's one of my favourite varieties, so I plan to load up early this year to guarantee I'll have it to brew with right through next Summer.

Thanks for the tip on how to correct the double line spacing. The SHIFT+ENTER does the trick. 

Cheers,

Lusty.

[The Captain!!]

That’s fair. Completely understand the restraint. 

Its a good point with the Nelson, with all the pacific ale brewing over the summer it was very hard to get a hold of it. Might try get a 500g and put it in the freezer for Xmas/summer. That might last me the entire spring/summer season. 

Hope it goes well for ya Lusty. Wish I had of had this Lager back in the day before the devil came knocking at the door of Knappstein. 

Captain

[Otto Von Blotto]

Interesting that this is considered a lager but a pilsner isn't, considering it contains a lot of non-traditional lager ingredients

In any case it looks nice so I hope it turns out well for you.

[porschemad911]

I don't think Pacific Ale uses any Nelson, 100% Galaxy. If you need more Nelson check out Brewman Deal, I bought some from there recently at a reasonable price.

Speaking of Nelson, I am about to dry hop my second runnings amber lager with a moderate dose. It will have 3 days on the hops before being bottled up Monday night. 

Good luck with the brew Lusty, sounds really tasty. 

Cheers, 

John

[Beerlust]

On 5/25/2018 at 12:57 PM, Otto Von Blotto said:

Interesting that this is considered a lager but a pilsner isn't, considering it contains a lot of non-traditional lager ingredients

Just to confuse you even more, the commercial version used to drink more like an ale than it did a lager!  

I hung a few on last night & am feeling the effects of that today.  

After a production schedule meeting this morning (which I chaired), it was agreed with a confident vote of 1-0, the brewing of the Enterprising lager shall be postponed. 

I'll still keg the Sparkling Ale though.

Cheers,

Lusty.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Yeah, I know there's a movement of brewing lagers these days that more resemble pale ales, not that there's anything wrong with that. I've had them before and they are nice beers. I'd still consider them lagers though if they're fermented with lager yeast and cold conditioned for a period of time.

Cheers

Kelsey

[Beerlust]

Everything has gone well with the ferment of this brew so far...... up until now. I just took another SG reading on day 8 (1.017-18), & it's only 2 points lower than it was on day 5 (1.020). It should be lower by now, somewhere around 1.010-12 I would have thought. If it's stalled, it shouldn't have as ample yeast was pitched & lager yeasts cope better at lower ferment temps. Ferment temp has been @ 18°C for the last 3 days. This situation just isn't adding up to me, & is very frustrating on the back of my last brew that also came up short, stalled, & required further yeast attention.

The SG sample actually tastes OK, but still, it shouldn't be that high at this point given the malt grist & yeast used.

I have elevated the temp another degree to 19°C & might even look to re-rouse the yeast before I hit the hay later.

Painful, as I was looking to add the dry hop today, but that will now have to wait until I sort this FG issue out. 

Lusty.

[Beerlust]

After pitching some more yeast & allowing further time the SG has barely budged.  It's sitting at 1.016-1.017. I'm FIIK what's going on with it, but I'm gonna begin the dry hop, then cold crash & keg it later next week.

I used a new brew calc on this one due to IanH's spreadsheet shiting itself.  I was wondering if a kind soul would run the above listed malt grist & yeast from the recipe through BeerSmith or something reputable, & tell me what OG/FG they get. I had some doubts but the predicted numbers are probably fine. 

Cheers,

Lusty.