Kegging equipment?

[Shamus O'Sean]

14 hours ago, glivo said:

I now have 5 kegs filled with beer.  Two are my mates Brown Ale and 3 are Cooper's Lager kit beer from the 60 litre FV.  We pick up my mates kegerator tomorrow and mine is already operational but I haven't poured a beer yet.  I have a few questions still, even though I've been watching loads of videos and reading up.

Forced carbonation!  Is any carbonation achieved by applying pressurised CO2 considered "forced carbonation"? There are videos showing rapid carbonation through repetitive agitation of chilled kegs under CO2 pressure, and some people mention up to 2 weeks just sitting under pressure, all under the banner of forced carbonation.

Once the newly filled keg is under CO2 pressure, can you just remove the bottle gas supply and store them?  Do you need to fully carbonate them (rapid or 2 weeks) before storage?  My kegs are holding the initial pressure charge after purging, but is that enough CO2 to then just put them aside for future use?  If so, what needs to be done when tapping the keg? Does it need more carbonation first?

I recall reading here that @Shamus O'Sean uses some natural carbonation by adding sugar to the keg and I saw it mentioned in a video as well.  I've tried this approach on one keg of the lager by adding 150g of dextrose.  I'll monitor its pressure daily and burp it if necessary.

 

Applying CO2 is probably considered "forced carbonation" in all its forms.  

I have stored kegs in my garage with only 12psi applied to them on kegging day.  The longest would be around 3 months.  Probably not best practice, but it certainly does not spoil the beer or anything.  When I come to put them in my kegerator, I use my usual 24 hours at 40psi , then back to serving pressure of 12psi.

I do not naturally carbonate with sugar in the keg anymore.  My results with it have been patchy.  A couple of kegs were fine.  One or two were flat.  That is annoying when you hook it up to the kegerator to get it cool, expecting to find it carbonated when you pour, only to find it isn't and you have to force carbonate it anyway.  Good luck with your attempts at it.

[Back Brewing]

8 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

Applying CO2 is probably considered "forced carbonation" in all its forms.  

I have stored kegs in my garage with only 12psi applied to them on kegging day.  The longest would be around 3 months.  Probably not best practice, but it certainly does not spoil the beer or anything.  When I come to put them in my kegerator, I use my usual 24 hours at 40psi , then back to serving pressure of 12psi.

I do not naturally carbonate with sugar in the keg anymore.  My results with it have been patchy.  A couple of kegs were fine.  One or two were flat.  That is annoying when you hook it up to the kegerator to get it cool, expecting to find it carbonated when you pour, only to find it isn't and you have to force carbonate it anyway.  Good luck with your attempts at it.

That is the information I have seen as well purge the head space of the keg and leave it till your ready to put it in the kegerator on force carb or set and forget its pretty simple really as long as the keg holds pressure 

[Back Brewing]

20 minutes ago, iBooz2 said:

Good head on beer is the product of the recipe not the CO2, which is then supported somewhat by the carbonation.  Gas gives it a fizz, recipe gives it a head. 

You will notice that Coopers have continued to apply 250 g of Carapils to their ROTM pretty much ever since I suggest they take the bull by the horns and solve the lack of head problem in many past K&K recipes.  This addition has taken their kits and bits to the next level IMO and a big thank you to Coopers for listening and also for making that change.  

If you go back and have a look at the recipes Coopers we're using light crystal malt in a lot of recipes then introduced carapils to overcome the sweetness some recipes still use light crystal malt and as we all know light crystal malt improves head retention 

[glivo]

Ok. Now I think I'm beginning to understand the keg carbonation thing. Thank you to all for your patience and replies.  I'm nearly there.  As to the beer pictured above, when I make the exact same beer and bottle it, I get a fairly good head when it's poured. I had a second glass later yesterday and it is still under-carbonated.  I'll just have to wait.  I've had a good look at the calculator and chart for carbonation.  The time factor was my missed variable. 

ROTM came up here with mention of the 250g of Carapils.  I was about to ask about this month's recipe, specifically in relation to the grains.  My local HBS does not list either carapils or carafa I on the website.  They have Caramalt and Choc malt or Dark Crystal.  Will these substitute or should I order online?

[glivo]

Never mind answering about the ROTM malt grains.  The HBS had both when I went in today.  They're just not listed on the website.

My mates Brown Ale today.  I gave him a sample when we got back home from picking up his kegorator.  He was pretty impressed and to be honest, so was I.  What difference a day makes.

[Shamus O'Sean]

15 hours ago, glivo said:

Ok. Now I think I'm beginning to understand the keg carbonation thing. Thank you to all for your patience and replies.  I'm nearly there.  As to the beer pictured above, when I make the exact same beer and bottle it, I get a fairly good head when it's poured. I had a second glass later yesterday and it is still under-carbonated.  I'll just have to wait.  I've had a good look at the calculator and chart for carbonation.  The time factor was my missed variable. 

ROTM came up here with mention of the 250g of Carapils.  I was about to ask about this month's recipe, specifically in relation to the grains.  My local HBS does not list either carapils or carafa I on the website.  They have Caramalt and Choc malt or Dark Crystal.  Will these substitute or should I order online?

Not having Carapils is like not having a Pale Malt.  It is pretty much a staple.  A similar product is called Carafoam.

Carafa I is a dehusked dark malt.  So similar to Roasted Malt except less astringent due to the absence of the husks.  An option for Carafa I is Chocolate Malt.

Glad to hear it turned out your LHBS ended up having the specific grains.  Dark Mode Schwarzbier sounds like a very nice brew.

[glivo]

Yeah, obviously the HBS doesn't present their full stock list on their website.  It isn't an online store but they had both. The boss man said they sell quite a bit of Carafa I at this time of year with people turning to brewing stouts and porters. 

[glivo]

I mentioned earlier the corny keg I have that had no dip tube or O-ring under the in post, and the one from another keg didn't fit.  

Edit:  Never mind. I've found my own answer. There are many different manufacturers of kegs and naturally, they use different and non-interchangeable parts. This could be fun.

Edited May 12 by glivo

[glivo]

Upon purchasing the second hand kegorators for both myself, and my mate, I have come across a couple of different types tap assembly.  The tap that came on my mate's fridge is a side pull or swing lever beer tap.  The tap mechanism has a handle that swings through a full 180' in a horizontal plane, with it being fully off when it sits to either side and fully on when it points directly at the pourer with graduated pouring anywhere in between.  It has a spring-loaded nylon cam assembly inside that allows the tap to jump back into the off positions and it can be flow controlled by hand in between.  This appears to be a good design for that reason.

I've been able to disassemble it almost completely and give it a thorough immersion clean in the ultrasonic parts cleaner.  I've replaced the O-ring seals I encountered in doing this.  It is operational and appears to be sealing properly so it should be OK to use, but I am concerned that I was unable to extract the central plunger from the main tap body.  The conically tapered hard nylon end of the plunger may well simply seal upon a matching machined surface but I feel there must be an O-ring in there somewhere to prevent beer going up into the body.  I can sort of feel it moving between surfaces as the plunger moves up and down within the range that it does, but it won't pull right out.

I am wondering if anybody has had experience with this type of tap.  Similarly designed taps are pretty pricey and I see no real reason to replace it if it works, but it would be reassuring to know how to fully service it if the need arises.

[glivo]

6 hours ago, glivo said:

I mentioned earlier the corny keg I have that had no dip tube or O-ring under the in post, and the one from another keg didn't fit.  

Edit:  Never mind. I've found my own answer. There are many different manufacturers of kegs and naturally, they use different and non-interchangeable parts. This could be fun.

Does anybody know if, or where, the plastic 0.25" OD gas dip tube for Firestone kegs are available?  Is the only solution in Australia to buy an OD 5/16" tube and drill the spigot hole out from 1/4" to suite 5/16"?

[glivo]

Hiccups!!!  No, not that kind.  I didn't expect to be 100% successful on first try and this has proven to be an accurate assumption. 

Having taken onboard advice and research, I believe I have still ended up with unbalanced lines and / or over-carbonated kegs.  The main problem is with my mates kegorator, but my own has started to foam up as well.  (Note: I learned this morning to not use beer glasses from the freezer, and that a poorly balanced keg at the start will lead to either flat or over-carbonated beer by the end.)

I had good beer happening with my mate's keg in my fridge, but then I moved it to his place and set up his fridge on Saturday.  We managed to pour a few beers, but it wasn't perfection.  The kegs possibly got a bit shaken up enroute, but after 24 hours it was still "foamy" yesterday, so I'm thinking over-carbonated maybe.  It doesn't help that the working pressure gauge on the regulator for his gas bottle is marked in kPa instead of psi, but 12 psi = 83 kPa and 15 psi = 103 kPa.  I've put a permanent marker line at 100 kPa and set it under that mark at what I think is around 10 - 12 psi (maybe too high).  There are 2 kegs in the batch so I may need to try the other one to see if it works with the line which is 4 m long at 5mm ID.  I've now looked into methods of reversing over-carbonated kegs, but I'd be interested in other member's experience in doing this or other possible suggestions.

My own setup, which did produce a good pour with mate's keg, and then my own first keg of Cooper's Lager (1 of 3) for a few days, has now begun to foam up yesterday afternoon. I can still obtain a beer by pouring, settling and topping up a few times but it isn't properly balanced.  I think I need to construct a portable pressure gauge to accurately measure the pressure inside the kegs.  The regulator working pressure gauge just don't seem to be capable of good data, with the usable operating range all being concentrated at the bottom end of the dial.  It is quite difficult to adjust to an accuracy of 1 or 2 psi under the 15 psi mark, using a gauge that has a much larger range.

Anyway, there is no urgency as we both have a good stock of bottled beer, which allows us time to tinker with these new (second-hand) setups.  For something that appears to be really straight forward, there are certainly lots of things that can and do influence the difference between working and not working.

[glivo]

I might have been expecting too much, too soon.

Mine this afternoon. (The first keg was empty.  Oops, where did that go?)

Old mates this afternoon.  This was the second pour. He said the first one was frothy, but this one looks ok to me.

[ozdevil]

2 minutes ago, glivo said:

I might have been expecting too much, too soon.

Mine this afternoon. (The first keg was empty.  Oops, where did that go?)

Old mates this afternoon.  This was the second pour. He said the first one was frothy, but this one looks ok to me.

1st pour can always be a bit frothy    as there is other factors in play other then line balancing

if your beer has to  be poured from a beer font    part of the line can be a little warm as well as the tap itself

once the beer starts to flow  the beer line will chill down as well as the tap itself


if using a fridge   the main cause of the 1st pour will be the tap  as its going to be the warmest part  of where the beer travels through and into glass

if kegerator  it will be caused  by the beer font and taps  

once you get over that 1st frothy pour   your beer should be like what you see in your pic

 

[glivo]

Yep.  I now know all about warm taps (among other things) after watching a few videos about frothies this morning.  Obviously, my keg was going frothy because it was nearly empty.  I'm just having a beer while trying to work out how that happened.

[Back Brewing]

46 minutes ago, glivo said:

Yep.  I now know all about warm taps (among other things) after watching a few videos about frothies this morning.  Obviously, my keg was going frothy because it was nearly empty.  I'm just having a beer while trying to work out how that happened.

Quite easy to answer that you drank it simples

[glivo]

22 minutes ago, Back Brewing said:

Quite easy to answer that you drank it simples

I had considered that, but I thought 19 litres would last a lot longer, and it's really hard to tell when you're not counting empty bottles and topping your glass up before it's really empty.  I think we're going to need a bigger boat.

[Back Brewing]

1 hour ago, glivo said:

I had considered that, but I thought 19 litres would last a lot longer, and it's really hard to tell when you're not counting empty bottles and topping your glass up before it's really empty.  I think we're going to need a bigger boat.

From first hand experience when your drinking pints and a mate is too and having a brew while doing other things a keg doesn't take long to blow

[iBooz2]

2 hours ago, glivo said:

I had considered that, but I thought 19 litres would last a lot longer, and it's really hard to tell when you're not counting empty bottles and topping your glass up before it's really empty.  I think we're going to need a bigger boat.

@glivo, get yourself some of these whiteboard magnets from Officeworks or wherever.  Each drinker has a different colour magnet set.  I have a marked section on my beer fridge so that each time I pour a pint I put a coloured magnet there, same goes for each visitor, a scoreboard so to speak, just so I know and they know how many they have had.

Underneath that is a sign that says.

One pint

Two pints

Three pints

Floor.....

 

Edited May 20 by iBooz2

[ozdevil]

Each 49.5L keg renders approximately 115 schooners or 175 pots of beer
each 19L keg renders 45 schooners 67 pots of beer. 

[glivo]

I can see some form of counter system would be handy in keeping track what's left in the keg.

Edit:  On a different note, it was interesting for me to see the amount of what appears to be nice clean yeast at the bottom of my first emptied keg.  As most of the yeast from fermentation was left undisturbed on the bottom of the FV, and assuming the beer was finished, there is actually quite a bit settled to the bottom while cold.  I've put this mason jar in the fridge overnight to see just how much was in there.

Edited May 20 by glivo
Addition info

[glivo]

I think I may have kegged a little early and perhaps it wasn't quite finished in the FV.  This is the amount of yeast that settled in the jar.  That's over 1 cm deep in a 600 ml Mason Jar.  Nice looking yeast though and may be a much easier way to harvest instead of washing the trub.  The 3 bottles I filled after filling 3 kegs are also heavily loaded with yeast.  This could also explain why I may be over-carbonated.  The keg in the fridge at the moment is one I tried to naturally carbonate by adding dextrose, and it appears to be OK apart from being a bit frothy again, so no damage done.  It certainly tastes pretty good.

[ozdevil]

11 hours ago, glivo said:

I can see some form of counter system would be handy in keeping track what's left in the keg.

plaato  had these electronic scale things  that sat under the keg   and when you had a beer it would do a measurement and  could tell you how much left in the keg  

the pic below is the scale and you would sit the keg on top of it.   unfortunately  plaato  dont do these anymore 

[Uhtred Of Beddanburg]

@glivo assuming you did not cold crash before kegging? That would be extra sediment etc. 

Trube a mixture of yeast, cold break and other unfermented ingredients that settled to the bottom.

[glivo]

38 minutes ago, Uhtred Of Beddanburg said:

@glivo assuming you did not cold crash before kegging? That would be extra sediment etc. 

Trube a mixture of yeast, cold break and other unfermented ingredients that settled to the bottom.

The 60 litre FV was sort of cold crashed using naturally cold ambient wintery temperature in the beer shed.  It was kept warm for a week under covers with a heat band and then allowed to sit out on the bench for a couple of days, which probably saw it drop to about 12'C.   I didn't take a final gravity reading as normally 10 days is sufficient for this kit when used standard as per instructions.

What makes me think it wasn't finished is the 3 bottles from the end of the barrel.  They have way more sediment at the bottom than I ever get in bottles.  It appears that the priming sugar has caused a spurt of healthy reproduction as well as carbonation.  I started the brew on 28 Apr and kegged / bottled on 8 May so 10 - 11 days.

[Classic Brewing Co]

Out of curiosity I Googled for a device that measures the amount of beer left in the keg, this link shows a few products.

I am not sure if it would apply to Corny Kegs.

https://www.kegcheck.com/#:~:text=Kegcheck quite simply%2C and accurately%2C measures the amount,in the pressurised%2C non-transparent keg in the cellar.