livebynight Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 Yeah when i get more advanced i may very well bypass the last stage of filtration and ad my own minerals to the water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil2803 Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 I have been using filtered rain water. If there are any bugs in the water then they get through and compete with the yeast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 Yeah when i get more advanced i may very well bypass the last stage of filtration and ad my own minerals to the water. That's why I got the still for adjusting my water for brewing pilsners. I like the accuracy of it over guesswork. I have been using filtered rain water. If there are any bugs in the water then they get through and compete with the yeast. Nothing wrong with that' date=' obviously it isn't causing any issues with contaminating batches. A quote from this here article: Many bacteria are sensitive to the adverse conditions prevailing in wort and beer, including low pH, alcohol content, hop extracts and low oxygen concentration. However some groups are able to thrive under these conditions and are therefore particularly dangerous as they cause off-flavors and compete with yeast for essential nutrients. It goes on to list a number of them. Lactobacilli and Acetobacter are the main two that seem to be an issue amongst home brewers. I guess any bacteria present in your water must be the type that die when confronted by a low pH and alcohol etc. Cheers Kelsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristinaS1 Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 A quote from this here article: Many bacteria are sensitive to the adverse conditions prevailing in wort and beer' date=' including low pH, alcohol content, hop extracts and low oxygen concentration. However some groups are able to thrive under these conditions and are therefore particularly dangerous as they cause off-flavors and compete with yeast for essential nutrients.[/quote'] It goes on to list a number of them. Lactobacilli and Acetobacter are the main two that seem to be an issue amongst home brewers. I guess any bacteria present in your water must be the type that die when confronted by a low pH and alcohol etc. Cheers Kelsey The pH of my water is 8 I think. Combined with the pH of the extract it is likely even higher. That is probably one mechanism that resulted in so many contaminated batches for me: low pH was not suppressing any bacteria. Here is an interesting article about the microbiology of brewing and beer: http://mmbr.asm.org/content/77/2/157.full Anyway, this has got me thinking about repitching yeast slurry. If you have hard water, you might better off making your extract beer using RO, to reduce the chance of bacterial contamination, and passing it on to the next batch with your slurry. I was just about to try repitching slurry with this current batch I have on the go. Now I will wait until the next batch, when I use RO water. I know the alcohol has certain antimicrobial effects as well, but obviously some bacteria are immune to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 The pH of the water itself is largely irrelevant in this case. Also, adding grains and mashing actually decreases it down to about 5.2-5.6 ideally. The mash pH is the important number. I'd imagine those making extracts would be aiming for this range when mashing the grains in the brewery. So you've got this extract which should be sitting in that range pH. Then when you get to making beer with it, you've got yeast which drops it down to about 4, plus the alcohol content as well as the hop compounds. The yeast will multiply and become the dominant microorganism in the brew, effectively killing off any potential contaminants. Hence, only a few bacteria can survive these hostile conditions. The ones in your well water may be some of which can survive it. This is why I don't store my yeast under distilled water - the spent starter wort is actually a protective layer against rubbish infecting it. If you are using hard water but which is free of potential contaminants such as these types of bacteria, then there should be no issue, because they aren't there in the first place, regardless of the pH of the water itself. Conversely, if you are using soft water but it does contain these things, well it could well present a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristinaS1 Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 The pH of the water itself is largely irrelevant in this case. Also' date=' adding grains and mashing actually decreases it down to about 5.2-5.6 ideally. The mash pH is the important number. I'd imagine those making extracts would be aiming for this range when mashing the grains in the brewery. So you've got this extract which should be sitting in that range pH. Then when you get to making beer with it, you've got yeast which drops it down to about 4, plus the alcohol content as well as the hop compounds. The yeast will multiply and become the dominant microorganism in the brew, effectively killing off any potential contaminants. Hence, only a few bacteria can survive these hostile conditions. The ones in your well water may be some of which can survive it. This is why I don't store my yeast under distilled water - the spent starter wort is actually a protective layer against rubbish infecting it. If you are using hard water but which is free of potential contaminants such as these types of bacteria, then there should be no issue, because they aren't there in the first place, regardless of the pH of the water itself. Conversely, if you are using soft water but it does contain these things, well it could well present a problem. [/quote'] So you are saying that if the extract has a pH of 5.2-5.6, and my brewing water has a pH of 8, the yeast can drop it down to pH 4? Wow, that is impressive. So what I said before isn't quite right: there would be no issue repitching yeast from a batch made with hard, treated (city) water, but there could be if made with hard untreated well water? Is that right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 So you are saying that if the extract has a pH of 5.2-5.6' date=' and my brewing water has a pH of 8, the yeast can drop it down to pH 4? Wow, that is impressive. So what I said before isn't quite right: there would be no issue repitching yeast from a batch made with hard, treated (city) water, but there could be if made with hard untreated well water? Is that right?[/quote'] In a way, yeah. I don't know what the pH of any given extract is, however I would imagine that the breweries who produce it would be adding minerals and/or acids to the mash to get the mash pH in that 5.2-5.6 range, for whatever style extract they are making. It then has most of the water removed to concentrate it. I think there's about 20% water in liquid extract, so in 1kg of it, it's probably only about 200 mL water, which is going to make bugger all difference in a full size batch of wort. I don't know whether this concentration also lowers the pH of the extract or not, so I can't really comment on that accurately. I'm just hypothesising there. Then we move on to the hops and yeast. Hops contain alpha and beta acids, yeast contain acids as well, and this quote here All brewing strains produce glycerol, vicinal diketones (VDKs), alcohols, esters, short-chain fatty acids, organic acids, and diverse sulfur-containing substances. I'd imagine these acids would have some effect on lowering the pH of the solution, in this case beer, especially in regard to the yeast once it starts multiplying and fermenting. Either way, hard water that is treated won't cause any contamination issues in extract brewing, or repitching yeast from a batch brewed with it. It is a different matter if you are brewing all grain, since the whole wort gets boiled for an hour or more, in this case, there's probably not much risk of water causing contamination, regardless of whether it is treated or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Hi guys. Just following on from some questions I had about astringency in my beers that I felt could be attributed to chlorine levels in my tap water, & some links Magnaman provided, I was wondering which was the best way to approach dealing with this. There are plenty of RO systems out there, but I realized the popular Puratap filtering system removes chlorine from the water through the carbon filter. I noted in an older thread, that PB2 mentioned he uses water from a Puratap for his brewing. So if I'm gonna have to fork out a couple of hundred bucks or so, what advantages (if any) does the RO system & water have over the Puratap filtered system? All thoughts welcomed. Cheers, Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 If you didn't want to spend money on a system like that, boiling the water for 5-10 minutes removes chlorine pretty effectively. However, I can also appreciate that pre-boiling ALL the water for a batch of beer would be rather a PITA. I suppose with an RO system, or a still like I use on some batches, you get a clean slate to create whatever type of water profile you wish, as these systems pretty much remove all minerals/impurities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Yeah, you want to try a few batches of removing some chlorine before forking out your hard earned cash. You could try campden tablets. Have you noticed that the taste of your drinking water (from the tap) has changed recently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Hi Kelsey & Hairy. Yeah boiling full volumes of water for each brew would be a PITA, so put a big cross through that one! The astringency has been there for quite sometime. I'm not sure when I first noticed it to a point where I said, I should look into dealing with it either. It's not anywhere near an offensive level, but it is noticeable to me. It may not even be the water, & may be related to a grain/husk/milling scenario. I'm simply trying to eliminate the cause. I like your idea about trying some campden tablets Hairy. What I didn't know about these tablets is that they also "kill bacteria and inhibit the growth of most wild yeast". Very handy indeed! I reckon I'll give them a try. Thanks, Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB2 Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 I noted in an older thread' date=' that PB2 mentioned he uses water from a Puratap for his brewing.[/quote']Yep, I use Puratap water for kit brews (put a brew together today) and normal tap water for all-grain (brewed a midstrength House beer recipe yesterday and into the FV today). If we didn't have a Puratap, and the water supply had a chlorine odour, I would fill a couple of 20litre containers a day or two before and leave them to sit in the sun - this is usually sufficient to dissipate chlorine odour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Hi PB2. I tell you what Paul, you really are the Keith Martin of home brewing given all the fascinating little tid bits you throw out there from time to time. About time you brought out your own ALMANAC I reckon! I'm no chemist, so the chlorine levels being diminished in sunlight sort of threw me a bit until I thought about pool chlorination & why pools are constantly PH tested & re-chlorinated etc. Probably a silly question but I'll ask it anyway... Is there any chance of creating the beginnings of small microbes/bacteria/algae in this small amount of sunlight exposure time? The reason I ask is it is known that chlorine keeps these types of bacteria at bay, hence why it is so widely used. i.e. is there a chance by removing the chlorine & unwanted astringency, I may potentially be creating a platform for other bacterial infection(s) to introduce themselves? Given the added benefits in this area with the campden tablets, I'm sure you can understand why I ask. Sorry, paranoia has got the better of me here. I've actually got a couple of brand new 15 litre cubes I've yet to use, so would be interested to give it go with my top up water when the Winter weather breaks & there is a bit more regular sunlight across the day. Cheers, Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Lusty, full boil AG. You know you want to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Lusty' date=' full boil AG. You know you want to [img']devil[/img] No I don't you Nutri-Grain idealists!! I consider myself in a basic way a purist, not an idealist. Basically pure lazy! Long live extract!! Cheers, Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 You will eventually succumb to the temptation of brewing full grain beers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 You will eventually succumb to the temptation of brewing full grain beers. I look at that phrase as a timeframe in regard to whether my own patience' date=' available funds, continued interest, doctors advice, & liver health hold out long enough & meet at a suitable point where I go the extra step. [img']wink[/img] I must admit, lately I've been pulling back away from mashing grains due to time I'm willing to allot for brewing. It's just where I am atm. Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 I know mate, I'm just stirring While I do prefer all grain beers, it is something that you really have to want to do, otherwise it almost becomes like a chore rather than an enjoyable pastime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben 10 Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 I think water make up is FAR more important for grain mashing than extract mixing. Water chemistry plays a big part in the extract of fermentable sugars - from grain - and hop profile in a boil but I can't see it making a big difference when adding concentrates to water. Lusty AG is actually cheaper and no more time consuming than extract/ kit when you have a process nailed. 5 minutes to mill grain, 5 minutes to fill the urn, 5 minutes to add the grain to the water etc etc. I could time it one day to see the actual time spent doing the brew. It's not like you need tosit there and watch it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 I agree, water profiling is not necessary for kit & extract brewing. However, when I'm brewing one of my own partial recipes using larger portions of pure grain, wort acquired from that can make up 1/5 to 1/3 of my total wort (5 to 7 litres worth). From all the brews I've done, the only negative thing I've noticed across numerous styles of beer that I've brewed is this astringency. So I'm going to get to the bottom of that & deal with it once I know the source of it. AG for me (if I ever do it) will likely be 3V with all the bells & whistles. Until I'm in a position to purchase what I want, I'm quite happy doing things the way I currently am. Apart from a sense of pride knowing you made the beer totally from scratch, I don't feel I'm missing out on all that much TBQH. Cheers & good brewing, Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Apart from a sense of pride knowing you made the beer totally from scratch' date=' I don't feel I'm missing out on all that much TBQH. [img']wink[/img] Cheers & good brewing, Lusty. You are missing out on telling people to get into AG brewing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Hairy. There is the sense of pride in creating something from scratch, definitely. For me personally, the quality of my beers improved a lot as well when I made the switch. However, this switch also coincided with getting the fridge to ferment in and better yeast handling/pitching practices. The other point is that I never did partials, which I'd think would be better than straight extract. I went straight from all extract with primitive temp control and no care for yeast to all grain with precise temp control and much more care with yeast handling/pitching, so I'd imagine the jump in quality in that scenario would be bigger than it would be moving from partials to AG, considering you are already using good temp control and yeast handling/pitching practices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 You are missing out on telling people to get into AG brewing Indeed. Unfortunately for some though' date=' there is only black & white, no grey. Well I'll have those people know that recently there was a publication released that claims there are in fact 50 shades of grey. They even made a film about it! [img']whistling[/img] Cheers, Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 You are missing out on telling people to get into AG brewing Indeed. Unfortunately for some though' date=' there is only black & white, no grey. Well I'll have those people know that recently there was a publication released that claims there are in fact 50 shades of grey. They even made a film about it! [img']whistling[/img] Cheers, Lusty. I just like to gee you up, Mr. Grey. I will check out the film Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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