Issues with Carbonation

[Baggy]

Hi All. Bit of a Brew Beginner here... I have made multiple brews without too many issues. Lately I have had some carbonation issues with a few Coopers kits. Really poor carbonation. PET bottles do not build up pressure after bottling. Beer is flat and tasteless. Brews in question are Vanilla Choc Stout, Devils Brew Porter and English Stout. All brews are duds.... I leave the brew in the fermenter for 10 to 14 days-is this too long? SG is stable at this point.  A couple of the brews may have got too hot post bottling-maybe over 28/30 degrees? I usually try for 22 degrees storage after bottling. I follow all instructions. I treat the yeast carefully.  Any ideas or suggestions appreciated. Thanks!

[Tricky Micky]

27 minutes ago, Baggy said:

Hi All. Bit of a Brew Beginner here... I have made multiple brews without too many issues. Lately I have had some carbonation issues with a few Coopers kits. Really poor carbonation. PET bottles do not build up pressure after bottling. Beer is flat and tasteless. Brews in question are Vanilla Choc Stout, Devils Brew Porter and English Stout. All brews are duds.... I leave the brew in the fermenter for 10 to 14 days-is this too long? SG is stable at this point.  A couple of the brews may have got too hot post bottling-maybe over 28/30 degrees? I usually try for 22 degrees storage after bottling. I follow all instructions. I treat the yeast carefully.  Any ideas or suggestions appreciated. Thanks!

Shame Baggy, what method do you use to prime your beers with? Grams of priming sugar per Pet bottle etc or if you bulk prime -  volumes, type of sugar and method would be helpful to know.

Others here will most likely chip in to help out as well.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Tricky Micky

[Baggy]

Hi Micky-thanks for your reply and good point. I use carbonation sugar drops-two per bottle. Im trying to keep it simple..... Cheers!

[Classic Brewing Co]

39 minutes ago, Baggy said:

Hi All. Bit of a Brew Beginner here... I have made multiple brews without too many issues. Lately I have had some carbonation issues with a few Coopers kits. Really poor carbonation. PET bottles do not build up pressure after bottling. Beer is flat and tasteless. Brews in question are Vanilla Choc Stout, Devils Brew Porter and English Stout. All brews are duds.... I leave the brew in the fermenter for 10 to 14 days-is this too long? SG is stable at this point.  A couple of the brews may have got too hot post bottling-maybe over 28/30 degrees? I usually try for 22 degrees storage after bottling. I follow all instructions. I treat the yeast carefully.  Any ideas or suggestions appreciated. Thanks!

Hi @Baggy A few things come to mind:   As Mick suggested provide more info on your recipe/ingredients & methods etc.

1. Make sure the yeast you are using will suit the temperature you are brewing at; do you have temperature control?

2 .Are your bottles really clean &sanitised, also check the caps, are the providing a tight seal. Fill a couple with water & tighten, give them a good shake & turn upside & check for leaks.

3. I would suggest using plain white sugar 1tsp = 4.2gms instead of Carb drops.

4. Storing your beer at 18-22c would be the preferred temperature, if you live in a hot climate, try storing in boxes & keep them out of direct sunlight & place in a cupboard or under the bed or anywhere the temperature is fairly consistent, a simple cheap thermometer is a valuable tool.

5.I prefer to leave my brews in the fermenter for 14 days, this ensures complete carbonation & helps to clear up the yeast resulting in a clearer beer. A constant temperature is important when fermenting your beer, there are specialist yeasts for different brews & some can stand high temperatures. See attached chart.

Voss Kveik is a good example of brewing at high temperatures.

I hope this helps.

Cheers

Phil

Optimal Temperature - Voss Kveik The optimal temperature is the range in which the yeast performs best without putting off any off-flavors. Pitching the yeast into wort usually happens at the low end of the temperature range.	77-107° F (25-42° C)

https://beermaverick.com/yeasts/

 

[Tricky Micky]

21 minutes ago, Baggy said:

Hi Micky-thanks for your reply and good point. I use carbonation sugar drops-two per bottle. Im trying to keep it simple..... Cheers!

All 3 batches have been flat - the lot  - Yes? I know this might sound like a silly question but are you taking hydrometer readings at the beginning and at the end of fermentation? Are those readings correlating to the recipes estimated gravity readings? 

14 days is fine for a brew to be in the fermenter. I know it might sound a bit obvious but do the caps on the PETS create a good seal. As in reasonably airtight?

Check the black collar from the cap is not impeding the cap to be tightened - if they are you can snip those off. 2 Coopers carb drops probably isn't cutting it for the fizz either.

Maybe for your next batch try 1 carb drop and 1 white sugar cube. If you like you could swap out the carb drops entirely and just use 2 white sugar cubes instead in each 740ml PET bottle. @Malter White can probably give you some advice here as well. If the caps are on tight - the bottles stored at 22 degrees - and you have 2 sugar cubes in there- you should have enough fizz in the beer.

 

[Baggy]

12 minutes ago, Classic Brewing Co said:

Hi @Baggy A few things come to mind:   As Mick suggested provide more info on your recipe/ingredients & methods etc.

1. Make sure the yeast you are using will suit the temperature you are brewing at; do you have temperature control?

2 .Are your bottles really clean &sanitised, also check the caps, are the providing a tight seal. Fill a couple with water & tighten, give them a good shake & turn upside & check for leaks.

3. I would suggest using plain white sugar 1tsp = 4.2gms instead of Carb drops.

4. Storing your beer at 18-22c would be the preferred temperature, if you live in a hot climate, try storing in boxes & keep them out of direct sunlight & place in a cupboard or under the bed or anywhere the temperature is fairly consistent, a simple cheap thermometer is a valuable tool.

5.I prefer to leave my brews in the fermenter for 14 days, this ensures complete carbonation & helps to clear up the yeast resulting in a clearer beer. A constant temperature is important when fermenting your beer, there are specialist yeasts for different brews & some can stand high temperatures. See attached chart.

Voss Kveik is a good example of brewing at high temperatures.

I hope this helps.

Cheers

Phil

Optimal Temperature - Voss Kveik The optimal temperature is the range in which the yeast performs best without putting off any off-flavors. Pitching the yeast into wort usually happens at the low end of the temperature range.	77-107° F (25-42° C)

https://beermaverick.com/yeasts/

 

Hi Phil. Thanks for your reply. I just follow the Coopers Recipe on their page and the recommended yeast. Yes-I do have temp control-my fermenter fits in an old bar fridge I have. I reuse bottles and caps-check for leaks-good clean with water and rinse with Brew Sanitiser-chuck any out that look dodgy. I will switch to plain white sugar-sugar cubes should be ok? Thansk for your feed back.

11 minutes ago, Tricky Micky said:

All 3 batches have been flat - the lot  - Yes? I know this might sound like a silly question but are you taking hydrometer readings at the beginning and at the end of fermentation? Are those readings correlating to the recipes estimated gravity readings? 

14 days is fine for a brew to be in the fermenter. I know it might sound a bit obvious but do the caps on the PETS create a good seal. As in reasonably airtight?

Check the black collar from the cap is not impeding the cap to be tightened - if they are you can snip those off. 2 Coopers carb drops probably isn't cutting it for the fizz either.

Maybe for your next batch try 1 carb drop and 1 white sugar cube. If you like you could swap out the carb drops entirely and just use 2 white sugar cubes instead in each 740ml PET bottle. @Malter White can probably give you some advice here as well. If the caps are on tight - the bottles stored at 22 degrees - and you have 2 sugar cubes in there- you should have enough fizz in the beer.

 

Thanks Micky. I do take hydrometer readings at the beginning and end of brew. In general they make sense and follow the pattern of starting high then settling down to a plateau. I will check the caps on my bottles. I will switch to 2 white sugar cubes for my next brew.  Cheers!

[Aussiekraut]

6 hours ago, Baggy said:

Hi All. Bit of a Brew Beginner here... I have made multiple brews without too many issues. Lately I have had some carbonation issues with a few Coopers kits. Really poor carbonation. PET bottles do not build up pressure after bottling. Beer is flat and tasteless. Brews in question are Vanilla Choc Stout, Devils Brew Porter and English Stout. All brews are duds.... I leave the brew in the fermenter for 10 to 14 days-is this too long? SG is stable at this point.  A couple of the brews may have got too hot post bottling-maybe over 28/30 degrees? I usually try for 22 degrees storage after bottling. I follow all instructions. I treat the yeast carefully.  Any ideas or suggestions appreciated. Thanks!

Carbonation issues are annoying. You work hard to get the beer done, look after it and then it turns out flat.

There are several reasons for flat bottles and @Classic Brewing Co has already pointed out some. Do you use glass bottles at all? If so, are they flat as well? Make sure the lids are on tight. Sometimes that's all it takes but then again, if it is all the PETs, then there might be something else wrong. Yeast doesn't normally die when temperatures hit 30 but maybe things are getting too hot and the yeast is simply dead. Is there any sediment in the bottles at all? 

I personally had issues with the carbonation drops. Not entirely flat beer but often not that fizzy and with no head retention. They're handy and easy to use, but maybe you get a measuring spoon for plain sugar or dextrose. They usually have two ends, one for stubbies and one for tallies. Or you can opt for bulk priming, where you dissolve a suitable amount of sugar/malt in something like 250ml of hot water, let it cool and then gently stir it into the fermenter about 30 minutes before bottling. "Gently" is the key, so you don't disturb the trub at the bottom of the fermenter. Cold crashing helps make this easier as the trub is more compact. That way you just fill the bottles with no need to add priming sugar/drops. 

[Baggy]

21 minutes ago, Aussiekraut said:

Carbonation issues are annoying. You work hard to get the beer done, look after it and then it turns out flat.

There are several reasons for flat bottles and @Classic Brewing Co has already pointed out some. Do you use glass bottles at all? If so, are they flat as well? Make sure the lids are on tight. Sometimes that's all it takes but then again, if it is all the PETs, then there might be something else wrong. Yeast doesn't normally die when temperatures hit 30 but maybe things are getting too hot and the yeast is simply dead. Is there any sediment in the bottles at all? 

I personally had issues with the carbonation drops. Not entirely flat beer but often not that fizzy and with no head retention. They're handy and easy to use, but maybe you get a measuring spoon for plain sugar or dextrose. They usually have two ends, one for stubbies and one for tallies. Or you can opt for bulk priming, where you dissolve a suitable amount of sugar/malt in something like 250ml of hot water, let it cool and then gently stir it into the fermenter about 30 minutes before bottling. "Gently" is the key, so you don't disturb the trub at the bottom of the fermenter. Cold crashing helps make this easier as the trub is more compact. That way you just fill the bottles with no need to add priming sugar/drops. 

Thanks for your input. I use 740ml PET bottles. There is a very slight hiss when I open them so there is some build up of carbonation but no where near enough.  No fizz and no head retention in beer. Suggests the bottles are not leaking-just not enough carbonation going on. There is sediment in the bottles. I am planning to switch to sugar cubes next brew. I will look out for the spoon you mentioned. Cheers!

[Classic Brewing Co]

5 minutes ago, Baggy said:

Thanks for your input. I use 740ml PET bottles. There is a very slight hiss when I open them so there is some build up of carbonation but no where near enough.  No fizz and no head retention in beer. Suggests the bottles are not leaking-just not enough carbonation going on. There is sediment in the bottles. I am planning to switch to sugar cubes next brew. I will look out for the spoon you mentioned. Cheers!

https://www.bigw.com.au/product/brigalow-home-brew-sugar-measure/p/202340

[Malter White]

@Baggy And how long are you leaving your bottles before opening? 2 weeks is the recommended minimum but the beer improves if you can leave them longer plus your carbonation should increase also over time.

[Baggy]

21 minutes ago, Malter White said:

@Baggy And how long are you leaving your bottles before opening? 2 weeks is the recommended minimum but the beer improves if you can leave them longer plus your carbonation should increase also over time.

Post bottling I store them for two weeks at 22 then as long as possible at room temperature. I will give the latest batch another two weeks warm and be patient with the other two brews. Give them another go in a month? They are all 1 month to 3 months old. I will try sugar cubes or measured sugar dose next brew rather than carbonation drops. Cheers.

[Shamus O'Sean]

59 minutes ago, Baggy said:

Post bottling I store them for two weeks at 22 then as long as possible at room temperature. I will give the latest batch another two weeks warm and be patient with the other two brews. Give them another go in a month? They are all 1 month to 3 months old. I will try sugar cubes or measured sugar dose next brew rather than carbonation drops. Cheers.

I seem to get good results from plain sugar for priming bottles.

• 740/750ml  1 and 1/2 teaspoons
• 450ml  1 teaspoon
• 330/375ml  3 x 1/4 teaspoons

I use a small funnel to get it in the bottle before filling.

[Cheap Charlie]

It sounds like you are doing everything right. I prime my 750ml bottles with 1 normal teaspoon of plain sugar and they are carbonated within a few days, best after 1 week. If in doubt leave them for a little longer. Leaving your beer on the cake for 14 days should pose no problem, even if it looks clear, there will still be yeast suspended which will be enough to provide enough carbonation. I'm in qld where temperatures are usually 25º+. Maybe you are being too strict on your sanitisation practices which is killing the yeast?

[Pickles Jones]

1 hour ago, Baggy said:

Post bottling I store them for two weeks at 22 then as long as possible at room temperature. I will give the latest batch another two weeks warm and be patient with the other two brews. Give them another go in a month? They are all 1 month to 3 months old. I will try sugar cubes or measured sugar dose next brew rather than carbonation drops. Cheers.

The common point with nearly all the posts regarding flat beer is the Pet Bottles. I got rid of them and replaced them with glass bottles with crown seals then moved to Grolsch Swing Tops.

The Crown Seals gave no problem however had the occasional one with the Swing Tops and a change out of the seal resolved that.

[Oldbloke]

There are only 3 things that need to happen for secondary fermentation.

1 Right amount of sugar in bottle.

2 Keep them consistantly warm for about 5 or 6 days.

3 Mature/age the beer

4 Caps need to seal

 

1 to 3 you seem to be doing.

Suggest you double check your bottle caps are sealing.

 

"Beer is flat and tasteless" indicates something else is at play here.  But as mentioned, more info needed re the recipes.  Do you just add sugar to the fv or malt?

[iBooz2]

@Baggy , this has been discussed many, many times before and mostly it boils down to not enough sugars used to pump up the PET bottles.  PET bottles, if you think about it are basically just stiff plastic balloons rather than soft rubber ones we know at parties.  Therefore it takes quite a bit of the CO2 produced to force the carbonation into the beer itself.  Different with glass bottles as that pressure has nowhere to go but be absorbed by the beer.  Maybe as much as 10-20 % of the pressure gets annulled by the ballooning out the PET bottles so less goes into your beer.  Its not always leaky lids and the like, balloons are balloons not matter in what form so there is your answer.

I have a pic of a PET bottle somewhere in my files that shows a PET bottle expanded to about one and a half its normal circumference due to the pressure generated inside.  So, if you think PET balloons you will get the picture.  I have been banging on about the stretch ability of PET bottles for years.

IMO when using PET use 2 x CSR sugar cubes for most beers styles and you will be pretty much on track and happy with the carbonation.

When I find the pic I will post later.

Edited April 3, 2023 by iBooz2

[Popo the Reprobate]

Where are you located, @Baggy? Could they be getting cold overnight? Or is it a constant temp? 

If the temperature does drop, the bottles spend a fair bit of time below carbonation temperature. They cool down then take a while to get back up. It might only be a fraction of the time you think they are at the right temp.

I've also found darker beers and higher ABV take longer to carbonate.

[Classic Brewing Co]

10 hours ago, Pickles Jones said:

The common point with nearly all the posts regarding flat beer is the Pet Bottles. I got rid of them and replaced them with glass bottles with crown seals then moved to Grolsch Swing Tops.

The Crown Seals gave no problem however had the occasional one with the Swing Tops and a change out of the seal resolved that.

I agree, PET bottles are good for the raw beginner & of course if looked after & treated properly including the cleaning process & storage, they can last a long time with minimal issue.

They are also handy for travelling, taking to BBQ's/parties/giveaways etc. I had success with them for a long time, but I also used various glass bottles which offer more consistency & as @iBooz2 states, they tend to expand not carbonating the beer as well as glass bottles.

I stopped using them years ago & they are all boxed & stacked in the shed for anyone that wants them for free.

I keg these days & of course have to bottle the remainder of the brew in Coopers Longnecks & Grolsch & Hefe' bottles.

 

[Oldbloke]

23 hours ago, Baggy said:

Hi All. Bit of a Brew Beginner here... I have made multiple brews without too many issues. Lately I have had some carbonation issues with a few Coopers kits. Really poor carbonation. PET bottles do not build up pressure after bottling. Beer is flat and tasteless. Brews in question are Vanilla Choc Stout, Devils Brew Porter and English Stout. All brews are duds.... I leave the brew in the fermenter for 10 to 14 days-is this too long? SG is stable at this point.  A couple of the brews may have got too hot post bottling-maybe over 28/30 degrees? I usually try for 22 degrees storage after bottling. I follow all instructions. I treat the yeast carefully.  Any ideas or suggestions appreciated. Thanks!

They were OK, now they aren't.  

Ask yourself what has changed?

Important the bottles don't cool down over night. If they do secondary fermentation takes about 3 or 4 times as long. 

Stouts do take longer to fully mature. And can still be improving the head for several months. Thats because some of the fermentables take a long time to be fully fermented. By any chance does the recipe tell you to decrease the amount of sugar in the bottle? Sometimes recipes tell you to reduce the sugar in the bottle for this reason.

 

Edit: Good things come in glass. 

Edited April 4, 2023 by Oldbloke

[Tricky Micky]

14 hours ago, Baggy said:

Post bottling I store them for two weeks at 22 then as long as possible at room temperature. I will give the latest batch another two weeks warm and be patient with the other two brews. Give them another go in a month? They are all 1 month to 3 months old. I will try sugar cubes or measured sugar dose next brew rather than carbonation drops. Cheers.

Also Baggy, because you're using PETS - those brews you've got there which are flat - I've had this happen to me  before - not the whole batch mind - but you could add a sugar cube to each bottle. It has worked in the past for me. I've saved flatties from being tipped doing this - but I'd only ever do this with the plazzie bottles just to be sure you don't end up with Beer B's

[Baggy]

Thanks! I will use this as a last resort.

[ChairmanDrew]

On 4/3/2023 at 11:17 PM, Shamus O'Sean said:

I seem to get good results from plain sugar for priming bottles.

• 740/750ml  1 and 1/2 teaspoons
• 450ml  1 teaspoon
• 330/375ml  3 x 1/4 teaspoons

I use a small funnel to get it in the bottle before filling.

Good googly moogly, I've been playing it pretty damn conservative then!

I use to make some syrup and sugar brews some years back, but just got back into it again recently.

First brew I did recently I put less than a 1/2 tsp into 450ml bottles. Turned out not great carbonation wise. Unfortunately I'd already bottled another brew before I realised the error of my ways and did the next one the same. To try and remedy it I tipped the bottles upside down and left them like that for a couple of days. Don't know if that helped, but that second brew has pretty good carbonation (it is a different brew to the first one).

The first brew after a couple of months has some carbonation, especially with an aggressive pour, but not great. The second one much better, despite having the same amount of priming sugar.

I just bottled my 3rd brew tonight, this time put a generous 1/2 tsp in the 450mls, fingers crossed on this one. (I also bottled some 1Ls, which have 1.5tsp, to see what works better).

BTW, I use caster sugar, for all the difference it makes.

[Oldbloke]

I batch prime 190grams of table sugar for 23 liters. Which eguals:

8.26gr per liter

6.33gr per 750ml bottle

3.7gr per 450ml

3.15gr per 375ml stubbie.

 

Don't use a tea spoon. Buy or make a scoop. Far more accurate. 

Just find something that consistantly holds the amount in grams of sugar you need and glue a handle to it. 

But batch priming is best IMO.

 

https://homemakeit.com.au/products/sugar-scoop-measure-2-way?variant=31185107517512&currency=AUD&utm_medium=product_sync&utm_source=google&utm_content=sag_organic&utm_campaign=sag_organic&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIuqmjoKai_gIVhiRgCh1cwAd0EAQYAyABEgL_YfD_BwE

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by Oldbloke

[Oldbloke]

Patch priming is simplest. This is how I do it.

Make the brew up to 21 litres. Not 23.

When your brew is ready, say day 10, dissolve 180 -190grams of sugar in 2 litres of hot water making a syrup,  and let it cool.

Pour the syrup gently into your fv whilst  gently stirring the beer.

Wait about 30 minutes for things to settle.

Now bottle your beer.

 

I still get clear beer, but then I do darks.

[Oldbloke]

Mmmm, too late to edit.

The problem with using teaspoons is:

They come in various sizes.

Some think it should be level, some well rounded, some heap them up.

 

So, some will be getting 6.5grams, some 8.5grams. 

then, just how much is half a teaspoon??

Basically they are not consistant.

 

Bulk prime or get some sort of scoop you can level off the sugar, far better. Perhaps a cap off a soft drink bottle?