Hops Boil 60 minutes

[Tricky Micky]

Just wondering the process of adding hops to the boil.  Can someone explain in simple terms how this works. For example, I've seen a recipe which required a 60-minute 10 litre boil adding 30 grams of hops and 1kg of LDM. Can someone explain the process and in what order this would be added to the fermenter

Thanks in advance.

[King Ruddager]

Instructions for hop additions usually look something like this:

• 10g @60
• 15g @15
• 25g @5

These times (the numbers after the @ symbol) represent the time before "flameout" (end of boil), so it's a bit like countdown timer. In the example I gave I would ...

1. Add 10 grams, when it starts boiling and start my timer for one hour
2. Add 15 grams 45 minutes later, when there's 15 minutes left
3. Add 25 grams when there's only 5 minutes left
4. Take the thing off the boil at the end of the hour

If it says to have LDM in there then than should be there the whole time.

Is that part of the way to answering what you wanted to know?

[King Ruddager]

Also, this:

That shows that the longer you boil hops the more bitterness gets imparted. If you want aroma and flavour from hops they only need to be there a small amount of time.

It's not exact ... in fact I think it's fairly inaccurate, but it illustrates the point.

[Lab Cat]

If you're brewing kit and kilo, I wouldn't be doing any 60m hop boils. Kits are already pre-hopped, so you're only pimping them up a bit. 60min boils will add a lot of bitterness - they're really only done with All grain brewing, where you're starting off from nothing.

[Pickles Jones]

38 minutes ago, King Ruddager said:

Instructions for hop additions usually look something like this:

• 10g @60
• 15g @15
• 25g @5

These times (the numbers after the @ symbol) represent the time before "flameout" (end of boil), so it's a bit like countdown timer. In the example I gave I would ...

1. Add 10 grams, when it starts boiling and start my timer for one hour
2. Add 15 grams 45 minutes later, when there's 15 minutes left
3. Add 25 grams when there's only 5 minutes left
4. Take the thing off the boil at the end of the hour

If it says to have LDM in there then than should be there the whole time.

Is that part of the way to answering what you wanted to know?

King Ruddager, I notice when boiling Hops it often asks that a certain amount of LDM is added to the boil.  I can't remember why. I don't think the reason was just to dissolve LDM.

Edited September 14, 2020 by Pickles Jones

[Lab Cat]

39 minutes ago, Pickles Jones said:

King Ruddager, I notice when boiling Hops it often asks that a certain amount of LDM is added to the boil.  I can't remember why. I don't think the reason was just to dissolve LDM.

I think the sugars aid the oil extraction...?

[Pezzza]

Probably the opposite given solution concentration impacts... but don't forget also that sugars and oils are in different parts of the physical chemistry spectrum...

This is more likely to be relevant:

• Boiling stabilises the composition of the wort, which is necessary to achieve “a stable, clear, great tasting beer of balanced character”.
• Boiling lowers the pH level in the wort which hence produces an environment suitable for hop utilisation.

If you are just boiling in water - the pH of most waters are in the 6-9 region not lower like a good boiled AG Wort or KNK malted product Wort. 

[Pale Man]

3 hours ago, King Ruddager said:

Also, this:

That shows that the longer you boil hops the more bitterness gets imparted. If you want aroma and flavour from hops they only need to be there a small amount of time.

It's not exact ... in fact I think it's fairly inaccurate, but it illustrates the point.

The red is covid graph for Melbourne.

[Pale Man]

1 hour ago, Bearded Burbler said:

Probably the opposite given solution concentration impacts... but don't forget also that sugars and oils are in different parts of the physical chemistry spectrum...

This is more likely to be relevant:

• Boiling stabilises the composition of the wort, which is necessary to achieve “a stable, clear, great tasting beer of balanced character”.
• Boiling lowers the pH level in the wort which hence produces an environment suitable for hop utilisation.

If you are just boiling in water - the pH of most waters are in the 6-9 region not lower like a good boiled AG Wort or KNK malted product Wort. 

I've just had a science lesson i'll  never understand

[Pale Man]

3 hours ago, Lab Cat said:

If you're brewing kit and kilo, I wouldn't be doing any 60m hop boils. Kits are already pre-hopped, so you're only pimping them up a bit. 60min boils will add a lot of bitterness - they're really only done with All grain brewing, where you're starting off from nothing.

Excellent post. In fact a really good skill kit and kilo brewers should learn is dry hopping. Really works well.

[King Ruddager]

3 hours ago, Lab Cat said:

If you're brewing kit and kilo, I wouldn't be doing any 60m hop boils.

Looks to me like he’s reading an un-hopped extract recipe

[Lab Cat]

42 minutes ago, King Ruddager said:

Looks to me like he’s reading an un-hopped extract recipe

Ah, didn't see that. It's not clear in his post, only that he saw a recipe. But it would make sense. I would even boil hops 30m in a hopped kit brew.

Edited September 14, 2020 by Lab Cat

[Pezzza]

46 minutes ago, King Ruddager said:

Looks to me like he’s reading an un-hopped extract recipe

Mmm, however, if you have a tame (most are) KnK, then having more bitterness (long boil in wort) and then more aroma (short in wort) is able to be completed with extra hops.... added to the tin-extract-wort. 

Some young guys I coached with Coopers IPA Kit were able to make a real material positive difference by adding extra hops to the KnK scene.

[Lab Cat]

37 minutes ago, Lab Cat said:

I would even boil hops 30m in a hopped kit brew.

Too late to edit - but I meant to say 'wouldn't'. Some hops impart a lot of bitter acids, so you need to know your hops and calc you finishing IBUs, to work out the hop boil you need.

[Pale Man]

1 hour ago, King Ruddager said:

Looks to me like he’s reading an un-hopped extract recipe

Hows the puppy brew dog going King?? Would be maturing by now 

[Tricky Micky]

6 hours ago, King Ruddager said:

Instructions for hop additions usually look something like this:

• 10g @60
• 15g @15
• 25g @5

These times (the numbers after the @ symbol) represent the time before "flameout" (end of boil), so it's a bit like countdown timer. In the example I gave I would ...

1. Add 10 grams, when it starts boiling and start my timer for one hour
2. Add 15 grams 45 minutes later, when there's 15 minutes left
3. Add 25 grams when there's only 5 minutes left
4. Take the thing off the boil at the end of the hour

If it says to have LDM in there then than should be there the whole time.

Is that part of the way to answering what you wanted to know?

Yeah I think so, I was really interested in a recipe on the forum which was not using the kit. Just 1.8 kg LDME  - 30grams of hops and Cane sugar. 

[Tricky Micky]

When boiling the hops and the LDME if I'm using the pellets do they go straight into the boil as is or wrapped in a cloth/chux ?

[Tricky Micky]

I'll fess up,

The recipe came from an older thread and was about making a clone of VB. 

Mitch's recipe from here 

https://community.diybeer.com/topic/13354-crown-lagervb-extract-recipe/

If someone can run through the process of the boil in detail, it'd be much appreciated. I'd be using Hop pellets. I'd also struggle to boil with a 10 litre pot so I'd be interested to know if I can scale down the size of the boil into a 5 litre pot or similar.

[Norris!]

To do a 5l boil you would

1. take 5l of water and add it to a pot that hold 10l or more at least. To help stop boil overs

2. Start to bring the water to a boil. While it is heating up add 500g of the light dry malt. You want the wort to be about 1.040 so that it extracts the bitterness and goodness from the hops smoothly and without harshness. Water alone extracts the oils and bitterness better but it is a harsher taste. 

3. Mix the extract into the water fully and bring to a boil. Once it reaches a boil add the 1st addition, in this case there is only 1, the PoR. I don't have the spreadsheet Any longer but I would add 35 to 40g of the PoR to make up for the smaller boil and hit the same IBUs,but someone with the spreadsheet can tell you the required grams for the IBUs you need. You can add the hops in a chux cloth or in nothing at all.

4. Start the timer for 60 min. After 50 minutes prepare your sink with ice and cold water. Have about 5 to 10l of cold water waiting in the fridge to add to the fermenter with the wort. Grab a strainer and place over the fermenter. 

5. At the end of the timer, turn off the heat, remove from heat source. Place in sink of cold water, don't let water from sink into pot.

6. Add the remaining fermentables to the fermenter or hot wort and mix in. Once the wort is cool enough to add to the fermenter, straining out the hops from the boil, and the cold water making sure to bring it down to your temp needed for the yeast.

 

[Tricky Micky]

3 minutes ago, Norris! said:

To do a 5l boil you would

1. take 5l of water and add it to a pot that hold 10l or more at least. To help stop boil overs

2. Start to bring the water to a boil. While it is heating up add 500g of the light dry malt. You want the wort to be about 1.040 so that it extracts the bitterness and goodness from the hops smoothly and without harshness. Water alone extracts the oils and bitterness better but it is a harsher taste. 

3. Mix the extract into the water fully and bring to a boil. Once it reaches a boil add the 1st addition, in this case there is only 1, the PoR. I don't have the spreadsheet Any longer but I would add 35 to 40g of the PoR to make up for the smaller boil and hit the same IBUs,but someone with the spreadsheet can tell you the required grams for the IBUs you need. You can add the hops in a chux cloth or in nothing at all.

4. Start the timer for 60 min. After 50 minutes prepare your sink with ice and cold water. Have about 5 to 10l of cold water waiting in the fridge to add to the fermenter with the wort. Grab a strainer and place over the fermenter. 

5. At the end of the timer, turn off the heat, remove from heat source. Place in sink of cold water, don't let water from sink into pot.

6. Add the remaining fermentables to the fermenter or hot wort and mix in. Once the wort is cool enough to add to the fermenter, straining out the hops from the boil, and the cold water making sure to bring it down to your temp needed for the yeast.

 

Thanks Norris

[Pickles Jones]

11 minutes ago, Norris! said:

To do a 5l boil you would

1. take 5l of water and add it to a pot that hold 10l or more at least. To help stop boil overs

2. Start to bring the water to a boil. While it is heating up add 500g of the light dry malt. You want the wort to be about 1.040 so that it extracts the bitterness and goodness from the hops smoothly and without harshness. Water alone extracts the oils and bitterness better but it is a harsher taste. 

3. Mix the extract into the water fully and bring to a boil. Once it reaches a boil add the 1st addition, in this case there is only 1, the PoR. I don't have the spreadsheet Any longer but I would add 35 to 40g of the PoR to make up for the smaller boil and hit the same IBUs,but someone with the spreadsheet can tell you the required grams for the IBUs you need. You can add the hops in a chux cloth or in nothing at all.

4. Start the timer for 60 min. After 50 minutes prepare your sink with ice and cold water. Have about 5 to 10l of cold water waiting in the fridge to add to the fermenter with the wort. Grab a strainer and place over the fermenter. 

5. At the end of the timer, turn off the heat, remove from heat source. Place in sink of cold water, don't let water from sink into pot.

6. Add the remaining fermentables to the fermenter or hot wort and mix in. Once the wort is cool enough to add to the fermenter, straining out the hops from the boil, and the cold water making sure to bring it down to your temp needed for the yeast.

 

Very informative Norris, Lab Cat was on the right track with my question as to why the LDM is put in the hop boil, this ties it up nicely 

[Tricky Micky]

Side by side comparison spreadsheet recipes 1x 10 litre boil and 1x 5 litre boil.

 

This is approximately the same regarding IBU's - Yes?

[Norris!]

1 hour ago, Mickep said:

Side by side comparison spreadsheet recipes 1x 10 litre boil and 1x 5 litre boil.

 

This is approximately the same regarding IBU's - Yes?

Looks about right to me, so pretty much no change really, a few grams.

[Tricky Micky]

Thanks Norris, probably can do the 10 litre boil now - just found the 19 litre stock pot at Big W - bargain! 

[King Ruddager]

17 hours ago, Mickep said:

Thanks Norris, probably can do the 10 litre boil now - just found the 19 litre stock pot at Big W - bargain!

Those pots are the best - mine continues to be useful even when I'm doing all-grain brews as a rinsing bucket. 10L gets you out of the worrying-about-hop-concentration zone too (in short, when hops are concentrated in a small container they are less effective).

 

20 hours ago, Norris! said:

3. Mix the extract into the water fully and bring to a boil.

When you say fully, you mean only the 500g, right? Not the full amount for the whole recipe. I'm only asking because this looks unclear.