Stalled/Stale Brew?

[Shamus O'Sean]

7 hours ago, DonPolo said:

I don't have any great expectations for this batch but any suggestions would be appreciated.

As LG says, check your Specific Gravity.  Your first few brews will be a bit trial and error.  But you will still make beer.

I reckon,

1. Check your SG
2. Get your temperature up to 21°C
3. Leave for a day or two
4. Check SG, if it is the same as earlier (and around what you expected) it is probably done and ready to bottle

[Smashed Crabs]

On ‎7‎/‎13‎/‎2020 at 10:11 PM, DonPolo said:

No views on the baker's yeast, the trub or the extra Brigalow yeast?

Iv used both in the past with good results. Latest was a Kveik slurry mixed  with some bakers yeast and nutrient which got a 1.150 down to 0.900 in 5 days. Then was in a pinch and pitched that combined slurry into a AG 1.051 which got it down to 1.013 in 3 days. No to worried with any off flavours due to this being such a hop bomb of a beer but yeah can work if no other alternatives.

[DonPolo]

11 minutes ago, Smashed Crabs said:

Iv used both in the past with good results. Latest was a Kveik slurry mixed  with some bakers yeast and nutrient which got a 1.150 down to 0.900 in 5 days. Then was in a pinch and pitched that combined slurry into a AG 1.051 which got it down to 1.013 in 3 days. No to worried with any off flavours due to this being such a hop bomb of a beer but yeah can work if no other alternatives.

Thanks interesting. How did you calculate all the additions?

 

[DonPolo]

8 hours ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

As LG says, check your Specific Gravity.  Your first few brews will be a bit trial and error.  But you will still make beer.

I reckon,

1. Check your SG
2. Get your temperature up to 21°C
3. Leave for a day or two
4. Check SG, if it is the same as earlier (and around what you expected) it is probably done and ready to bottle

What if the SG is stable after a day or two and there are still 'bits' floating on the top and in the wort? When bottled are they  going to drop down to the bottom of the bottles?

[Smashed Crabs]

6 minutes ago, DonPolo said:

Thanks interesting. How did you calculate all the additions?

 

The addition of the bakers yeast ? just sent it i guess ? usually use around 70-90 grams per a 23L @ 1.1 + but since it was mostly Kveik i think i added maybe 15-20 grams.

[Shamus O'Sean]

13 hours ago, DonPolo said:

What if the SG is stable after a day or two and there are still 'bits' floating on the top and in the wort? When bottled are they  going to drop down to the bottom of the bottles?

If the bits are floating they should not get in the bottles.  If they are suspended in the wort, some will get in your bottles.  They might sink or they might not.  I did have one that had floaties.  Not sure what it was.  Maybe hop matter, maybe small bits of grain.  This was before I was cold crashing my brews in a fridge.

Cold crashing is usually the solution for beers with floaties in them.

[DonPolo]

47 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

If the bits are floating they should not get in the bottles.  If they are suspended in the wort, some will get in your bottles.  They might sink or they might not.  I did have one that had floaties.  Not sure what it was.  Maybe hop matter, maybe small bits of grain.  This was before I was cold crashing my brews in a fridge.

Cold crashing is usually the solution for beers with floaties in them.

I wouldn't think there's any chance of hop matter or grain since I only  used a kit and LDM for this one. For sure I should have dissolved the LDM in cooler water first. It really clumped up because I used close to boiling water.

I was going to put the FV out in the freezing Canberra winter when the SG stabilises and see what happens. Never seriously cold crashed before so how long do you generally do that for?

On another note I have noticed that at the moment there is very little trub in the FV. Usually there's about 1-2cm at the end of fermentation in my brews. Not this time, or at least so far.

[Shamus O'Sean]

When I am using LDM I almost always dump it in the fermenter first.  Pour in about 1.5L of boiling water, straight from the kettle.  Fit lid.  Pick up fermenter and swirl gently, but firmly, for as long as it takes to dissolve the LDM.  Works pretty well, even with the fine Coopers LDM.

Cold crashing outside sounds like a great idea.  I used outside overnight temperatures to cool water for free for adding to the fermenter on brew day.  I usually cold crash from 4 to 6 days.

Very little trub?  What is your SG and has it settled?  What yeast were you using again?

[DonPolo]

OK first of all I just did the first SG reading and it is showing about 1017. Ian H's spreadsheet says that with the Coopers Lager kit and 1kg LDM brewed to 22L, the FG should be 1010. So my first guess is that when I went down the coast the temperature must have dropped below 1014 or so and it stopped fermenting for those four days. All up it has now been a week (maybe minus those four days).

The sample tasted OK. Quite bitter actually.

There is still very little sediment (trub).

Not sure if I should add more yeast or just be patient.

[DonPolo]

15 hours ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

Very little trub?  What is your SG and has it settled?  What yeast were you using again?

Oh and I should have added that I just pitched the kit yeast. The kit said that it's expiry date was Feb 2020 so I was worried the yeast was not going to work. There has been fermentation because there was a krausen although modest. Also Ian H's spread sheet predicted a OG of 1034 for what I added. I didn't do an OG reading because of the amount of clumped LDM in the wort.

[Shamus O'Sean]

Hi @DonPolo, everything should be fine.  The yeast you have used is old and its viability would have been quite low.  I have used out of date extract, but always pitched newer yeast.  In your case it has still worked, but probably slowly.  It might still be working, or it might have stalled or stopped completely.

Adding yeast this far into ferment might not work well.  Yeast are not very alcohol tolerant if "thrown in the deep end" so to speak.  You could still do it though.  I would suggest re-hydrating the yeast first.  Sprinkle the yeast in minimum 10 times its weight of sterile water at 25-30°C.  Leave to rest 15 to 30 minutes.  Gently stir for 30 minutes, and pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel.  You would probably need to leave it for a couple of days to see if it gets started.

The other thing you could do is to warm up the fermenter by about 2°C more than the main ferment.  

I suspect that the Lager extract plus a kit yeast does not generate a lot of trub.  It has been years since I did a brew with that can so I do not really remember.

[DonPolo]

13 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

Adding yeast this far into ferment might not work well.  Yeast are not very alcohol tolerant if "thrown in the deep end" so to speak.  You could still do it though.  I would suggest re-hydrating the yeast first.  Sprinkle the yeast in minimum 10 times its weight of sterile water at 25-30°C.  Leave to rest 15 to 30 minutes.  Gently stir for 30 minutes, and pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel.  You would probably need to leave it for a couple of days to see if it gets started.

The other thing you could do is to warm up the fermenter by about 2°C more than the main ferment.  

Thanks Shamus,

it is my first go with this lager can too, so I don't have a point of reference,

Can you explain what "... warm up the fermenter by about 2C more than the main ferment means?" 

What about 10 month old slurry kept in a really cold fridge? In either case, how much yeast (dry or slurry) would you add?

[Journeyman]

40 minutes ago, DonPolo said:

Can you explain what "... warm up the fermenter by about 2C more than the main ferment means?" 

What about 10 month old slurry kept in a really cold fridge? In either case, how much yeast (dry or slurry) would you add?

The warming up is something some of us do at the end of the ferment, when FG is stable. It's more important for lagers apparently (haven't made one myself) but it gvies the yeast a chance to do housekeeping - clean up the byproducts etc from the ferment.

If doing ales, you're normally around 18° - 20° so you raise the temp on the controller to 2° above your normal ferment. 

If doing lager, I think the recommendation is to raise it to 18°.

Give both a couple of days then cold crash to drop the solids etc. out of the brew, then finings for another couple of days -  if you're using them (like gelatin) - then bottle or keg.

Take the slurry carefully so you don't mix it and bring it to room temp (or ~20°+ if it's a cold room) and drain the liquid off the top. Add maybe 2L boiled then cooled water, and 200g LDME or sugar and wait a while - if should start to ferment. Give it a while to get a Kraussen on top then take a sniff. If it smells off, sink it. If it smells like a brew, it's fine to pitch.

Only thing - a complete trub will have a LOT of yeast in it - maybe just use half? So divide it at the start I think or you can wait till the end and just before pitching, shake or stir it well then take off 1L to store. Trub that age I would likely not bother storing it again but I also can't think of any reason not to if it was originally stored properly.

[Shamus O'Sean]

48 minutes ago, DonPolo said:

warm up the fermenter by about 2C more than the main ferment

+1 to what JM said

[DonPolo]

2 hours ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

+1 to what JM said

Ta but I'm not sure Journeyman realises that my brew has already started.

Edited July 19, 2020 by DonPolo

[DonPolo]

I just did another SG and it was still 1016-17. As a reminder it was supposed to have a FG of 1010. It looks like it's stalled. I'm a bit afraid to bottle at this SG because the sugar might create too much pressure. Don't want bottle bombs. So it looks as if I'm going to be pitching some sort of yeast to see if it restarts?

Any suggestions?

[Shamus O'Sean]

9 hours ago, DonPolo said:

I just did another SG and it was still 1016-17. As a reminder it was supposed to have a FG of 1010. It looks like it's stalled. I'm a bit afraid to bottle at this SG because the sugar might create too much pressure. Don't want bottle bombs. So it looks as if I'm going to be pitching some sort of yeast to see if it restarts?

Any suggestions?

Just chuck some rehydrated yeast at it and see what happens.  It might just sink to the bottom or it might get your brew down another few points.  As long as you are sanitary with everything you do, it will not make the beer worse.

[DonPolo]

13 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

Just chuck some rehydrated yeast at it and see what happens.  It might just sink to the bottom or it might get your brew down another few points.  As long as you are sanitary with everything you do, it will not make the beer worse.

Thanks I'll try that.

[Shamus O'Sean]

4 minutes ago, DonPolo said:

Thanks I'll try that.

I have bottled two brews that finished at 1.017 and had no issues.  But maybe I was just lucky.  Does not mean it is best practice either.  Both of those brews had OG's in the 1.050's though.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Shamus O'Sean

[DonPolo]

8 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

I have bottled two brews that finished at 1.017 and had no issues.  But maybe I was just lucky.  Does not mean it is best practice either.  Both of those brews had OG's in the 1.050's though.

Yes that's what I was afraid of

I've pitched some trub I had in the fridge. Poured a bit of the liquid off then shook it a bit. Used about half a cup. We'll see what happens.

[DonPolo]

Many hours now after pitching the trub. Nothing much happening but here is a photo showing the floaties. Smells a bit like home brew. 

[Shamus O'Sean]

I have not seen anything like those floaties days and days into the ferment.  There is nothing sinister floating on the surface.  The bubbles look normal.  If it smells and tastes okay, it should be okay.  I think if you could cold crash the beer in a fridge for 4-5 days it might make the floaties sink so you could bottle without getting them in the bottles.

Did your SG change after adding the trub you mentioned?

[DonPolo]

39 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

Did your SG change after adding the trub you mentioned?

Just checked it and I would say that it has dropped one point from 1.017 to 1.016 or maybe 1.0155. So not much change at all. I was thinking that I should have pitched more than I did. Also because of it's age, a lot of the yeast cells may have not been viable anyway. 

I'm thinking that I might as well pitch a 7gm packet of ale yeast or just ditch this batch because I really don't want to bottle it and take the risk of exploding bottles. One option though would be to bottle in PET bottles I guess.

[DonPolo]

One thing that I hadn't taken into account. The other day I read someone suggest that you should rinse your FV after you have sprayed it with a sanitiser. The recommendations I had read before said that there was not need to rinse equipment, bottles etc. It always seemed strange to me that something that was designed to kill bugs would not also kill at least some yeast cells.

Anyway I didn't rinse the FV after spraying and that, combined with using a somewhat older packet of yeast (six months out of date) may have reduced the amount of viable yeast to the point where it wouldn't ferment out the required amount of fermentables.

Any ideas?

Oh and by the way there was no further action in the fermenter so I pitched some more yeast we'll see how it goes.

If there's no improvement in the SG, I might just bottle it anyway in PET bottles anyway.

It might not turn out but maybe I'll have learned something.

Views?

Edited July 22, 2020 by DonPolo

[davids47]

looks like clumped yeast