Stalled/Stale Brew?

[DonPolo]

Hi it's been a while.

So I decided to put a brew down after a fair bit of a spell. Absolutely used up all my home brew stash and need to lay something down.

I found a can of Coopers Lager at my son's house and but discovered three days ago that it had a use by date of Feb 2020.

I thought what the hell, might as well try it and so I mixed up half the contents of the can with 500g Light Dry Malt (I was making a 11L brew in my 15L craft brew vessel). Put in about 2L of hot water to mix up the can contents and the 2L of water that was cooled in the fridge overnight and filled to 11L with cool water for an approximate temperature of 16 degrees, Put in the contents of the coopers yeast sachet and have been waiting for something to happen.

Well on the second day I noticed that the rather beige starting colour of the wort had changed to quite a dark brown, like a dark ale. I wasn't too worried because I'd seen this phenomenon once before and all was fine.

It is now the third day and no sign of any action. No krausen, no nothing. Note the photo below. I've let it rise to around 21 degrees which is the lower range of the 21-27C range recommended by Coopers but nada.

Should I just give up? Is this a result of using a can which is past its use by date? I was always sceptical when reading about cans that were out of date or not. I reasoned that most things keep forever in cans especially stuff like honey/treacle etc. and why wouldn't that apply to liquid malt? Perhaps I'm sadly mistaken?

Any views and/or any suggestions as to what to do? Perhaps the yeast is the problem and I should add some fresh stuff to get it going?

[Lab Cat]

a couple of months out of date shouldn't be a big issue. But others note that old cans have darker extract. Cans can keep for a while after use by, but yeast won't.

What does you hydrometer read? That's the place to start...

[Yatesy83]

Definitely doesn’t look like a lager. Very dark! I would probably dump it and get something else going as it might not be worth the time persisting with

[DonPolo]

Update.

As it has happened before while sitting there for three days, it has started to ferment. Not a massive Krausen at the moment but something. Perhaps there was not much live yeast left in the sachet and it took a time for the yeast to multiply?

Would there be an issue with adding more yeast and if so, how much?

What would I be looking for in a hydrometer reading?

[Marty_G]

20 minutes ago, DonPolo said:

Update  .... Would there be an issue with adding more yeast and if so, how much?

What would I be looking for in a hydrometer reading?

The hydromenter will tell you if it is fermenting. It is good practice to take a SG reading at the start. Need to make sure the extract is fully dissolved and the wort is mixed properly to get an accurate reading.  Then if you have an issue like the one you have just had you can take a reading and if the SG is lower it is fermenting.  A hydrometer is the most reliable indicator of fermentation. As far as adding extra yeast you can do that but also insulate that FV wrap it in a blanket or something.  Not sure where you live but have to get the temp stable.  

[DonPolo]

Thanks Marty,

It is now fermenting because I can see the Krausen forming. I didn't do an OG reading because the LDM really clumped up and didn't dissolve. As a side light what is the best way to get the can extract and the LDM into the FV and properly dissolved? Cold water? Warm water?

I don't really have any issues keeping the FV at any temperature between 14C - 21C. I've got it in a sink where I can run cold water into it and/or use frozen/cold water bottles. The real issue is what temp to keep it at? I'm thinking 18C then maybe raise it up to 21C after is near to FG?

[Journeyman]

6 minutes ago, DonPolo said:

Thanks Marty,

It is now fermenting because I can see the Krausen forming. I didn't do an OG reading because the LDM really clumped up and didn't dissolve. As a side light what is the best way to get the can extract and the LDM into the FV and properly dissolved? Cold water? Warm water?

I don't really have any issues keeping the FV at any temperature between 14C - 21C. I've got it in a sink where I can run cold water into it and/or use frozen/cold water bottles. The real issue is what temp to keep it at? I'm thinking 18C then maybe raise it up to 21C after is near to FG?

I think you had a delayed start because the temp was too low - it says Lager but that's an ale yeast on the can, and 16 isn't going to light it's fire. Every time you dropped it below 18° (if you did) the yeast goes siesta time and will not fire up until the brew warms up again. I was doing 18° for my brews but recently have kicked it up to around 19.5° just to give the yeast some extra energy to play with.

I've also done cans more than just a couple of months beyond date with no issues. I'm not sure that would be the reason it looks so dark as mine (based on later experience) looked fine.

LDME is not all the same. When I tried the Coopers BE3 at the start it clumped - that may or may not have been the LDME component because there's maltodextrine in there as well.

The LDME I get from beerbelly doesn't - I can just dump it in and a few stirs, it's dissolved. Mostly these days I have a partial mash so the LDME gets dumped in there when the boil is almost done but the BB LDME does exactly the same in room temp water or even from the fridge. Someone here said it depends on how it's made as to how easily soluble it is.

I think Coopers recommend putting the LDME in the FV, then add cold and stir for a while then start adding the rest. There's a video on it. (in case I am not recalling correctly)

[DonPolo]

Thanks Journeyman, 

I used 100% LDME from Coopers. I reckon it clumped because I used hot water not cold.

As for the colour, in a previous brew, another can was light brown when I laid it down then it went dark and then it turned more 'beer colour' again by the time the fermentation was finished.

It's sitting around 21.5C without me having to do anything at the moment. And since I'm going away for a few days and my son would not know how to handle things, it might as well stay there. That puts it well within the range recommended by Coopers for this kit anyway. Perhaps I should not let perfect become the enemy of good by fretting about it. 

Still not sure if putting in some extra yeast is a good or bad idea.

[Journeyman]

21 minutes ago, DonPolo said:

Still not sure if putting in some extra yeast is a good or bad idea.

It's couldn't hurt. It takes a lot of yeast to over pitch and a lot more to cause problems from doing it.

Another possibility for future ref is some yeast nutrients - I often use the kit yeast in a boil because I'm using (usually) Nottingham. The boil kills the kit yeast and makes the nutrients available for the Nott to scavenge and use. Figured that's a lot cheaper than buying special nutrients. It's probably too late for that now though - AFAIK the yeast uses the nutrients to make new yeast.

[DonPolo]

Thanks Journeyman,,

It looks like it is bubbling away reasonably now. I do have some trub in the fridge but I reckon it's WAY past its use by date although I don't know how long trub lasts.

I'm in no hurry. If the science says that a bit of yeast will eventually do it's thing then I might as well leave it.

However, the tip about using the kit yeast for a boil/nutrient addition is worth remembering.

[Lab Cat]

1 hour ago, DonPolo said:

It's sitting around 21.5C without me having to do anything at the moment.

That's because it's started fermenting, and creating its own heat. Sounds like the yeast is old and as Marty suggests, at too low at temp to ferment initially.

[DonPolo]

5 hours ago, Lab Cat said:

That's because it's started fermenting, and creating its own heat. Sounds like the yeast is old and as Marty suggests, at too low at temp to ferment initially.

So do you reckon I should add some extra yeast? it is day four but really only started to get a krausen this morning. And what about trub that's been in the fridge from about October last year?

[Marty_G]

@DonPolo I have found the best way to dissolve it is on the stove top. Use about 3 litres of water heated to about 60c. Slowly pour the malt in and stir. When all dissolved pour in the extract can and do the same. I have found if you are too hot the malt will clump.  About 60c seems to be the sweet temp. When you're happy that it is all dissolved pour into the FV and fill with cold water giving it a good stir. A stir strong enough to create a whirlpool is great and helps aerate the wort. You can also pitch the yeast while filling and stirring. The yeast does not have to be pitched on top just need to make sure the temps are not too high. 

 

[DonPolo]

Just saw this online: 

Using baking yeast to rescue a beer that's stopped fermenting

If you're worried your pitched beer yeast has run out of puff, in a pinch you could add some baker's yeast to help get things going again.

Just remember by adding a second yeast, the intended nature of your beer's taste will change.

If you go down this path you may need to activate the yeast in water before you pitch it, just to give it a helping hand.

 

I've got some packets of Brigalow Brewing Yeast (Ale yeast I think) that are marked Saccharomyces cerevisiae which is the same as baker's yeast. I've also got some old bakers yeast in the fridge that is a bit sluggish but could add some oomph.

Below is what it looks like now.

[DonPolo]

9 minutes ago, MartyG1525230263 said:

@DonPolo I have found the best way to dissolve it is on the stove top. Use about 3 litres of water heated to about 60c. Slowly pour the malt in and stir. When all dissolved pour in the extract can and do the same. I have found if you are too hot the malt will clump.  About 60c seems to be the sweet temp. When you're happy that it is all dissolved pour into the FV and fill with cold water giving it a good stir. A stir strong enough to create a whirlpool is great and helps aerate the wort. You can also pitch the yeast while filling and stirring. The yeast does not have to be pitched on top just need to make sure the temps are not too high. 

 

Thanks Marty. You are talking about the malt out of the can right? What about Light Dry Malt ?

[Marty_G]

16 minutes ago, DonPolo said:

Thanks Marty. You are talking about the malt out of the can right? What about Light Dry Malt ?

The malt is the powder and the extract is in the can.  That is the process to dissolve and mix. 

 

 

[DonPolo]

15 minutes ago, MartyG1525230263 said:

The malt is the powder and the extract is in the can.  That is the process to dissolve and mix. 

 

 

Gotcha. Ta.

[DonPolo]

No views on the baker's yeast, the trub or the extra Brigalow yeast?

[Shamus O'Sean]

3 minutes ago, DonPolo said:

No views on the baker's yeast, the trub or the extra Brigalow yeast?

It seems to have kicked off in the photo.  I would not add any yeast at this time.  I have no experience with it, but even if you had issues, I would not pitch baker's yeast.

Check your SG in a couple of days to see how it is dropping.  Maybe add yeast if it stalls.

[DonPolo]

Thanks Shamus,

Getting the info on WHEN to add any yeast is very  useful.

The Krausen is OK. None of the Krausen on any of my beers have ever been that big. I don't know if it is because I have been adding primarily Light Dry Malt or what.

On occasion though, I was intrigued by the mostly dark beige Krausen with the ring of whiter puffier section in the middle. Any ideas?

[Shamus O'Sean]

7 minutes ago, DonPolo said:

On occasion though, I was intrigued by the mostly dark beige Krausen with the ring of whiter puffier section in the middle. Any ideas?

No idea really.  Maybe something to do with the shape of the bottom of the fermenter?

[DonPolo]

That's a reasonable guess but I haven't see it before. Maybe a product of a great deal of clumping of the LDM when I first pitched it. I could be coming off a great big ball of LDM!

[Shamus O'Sean]

6 minutes ago, DonPolo said:

That's a reasonable guess but I haven't see it before. Maybe a product of a great deal of clumping of the LDM when I first pitched it. I could be coming off a great big ball of LDM!

Yep.  You could be right.  At least the yeast is getting to it, which is what everybody says will happen.

[DonPolo]

So after 6 days the Krausen had died down but there still seems to be chunks of what I assume to be LDM floating on the surface.

Also to complicate things I went away from my place in Canberra from Tuesday to today. Being unheated at that time I think the brew dropped down to around 14C or less. The brew was showing around 21C at the time of leaving which I assume was at least partially due to the temperature of fermentation. 

With the heating on now I suspect the temperature will rise. I guess this has to happen because I understand that the type of yeast that Coopers supplies for it's "Lager" can struggles under about 14C. Now, I have seen on this platform before that it can be advisable to let the wort temperature rise to about 21C to allow the yeast to 'clean up' after the primary fermentation.

However, I 'm not sure what the sequence if for all of this.

Finally, I understand it is not advisable to let the wort temperature to fluctuate too much so I feel in a bit of a dilemma here.

I don't have any great expectations for this batch but any suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[Lettucegrove]

2 hours ago, DonPolo said:

So after 6 days the Krausen had died down but there still seems to be chunks of what I assume to be LDM floating on the surface.

Also to complicate things I went away from my place in Canberra from Tuesday to today. Being unheated at that time I think the brew dropped down to around 14C or less. The brew was showing around 21C at the time of leaving which I assume was at least partially due to the temperature of fermentation. 

With the heating on now I suspect the temperature will rise. I guess this has to happen because I understand that the type of yeast that Coopers supplies for it's "Lager" can struggles under about 14C. Now, I have seen on this platform before that it can be advisable to let the wort temperature rise to about 21C to allow the yeast to 'clean up' after the primary fermentation.

However, I 'm not sure what the sequence if for all of this.

Finally, I understand it is not advisable to let the wort temperature to fluctuate too much so I feel in a bit of a dilemma here.

I don't have any great expectations for this batch but any suggestions would be appreciated.

 

Check the FG and go from there mate.