Lack of Hoppiness

[Gazzala]

Hi All,

Looking for some advice on getting good hop taste / aroma in my pale ales... 

So far none of my pale ale have had any hoppiness (taste or aroma). My latest brew is the Shark Attack XPA (https://www.diybeer.com/au/recipe/shark-attack-xpa.html) recipe which uses the following hops:

• 12.5g Centennial @ 15mins
• 12.5g Citra + 12.5g Amarillo @ flameout
• 12.5g Citra + 12.5g Centennial + 12.5g Amarillo @ dry hop on day 8 (using the chux cloth method - placed on top of the brew)

Due to previously being disappointed with the hoppiness in my brews, I increased the dry hop to 40g Citra + 30g Centennial + 30g Amarillo - that's the only variance from the recipe...

I took a sample yesterday (dry hops had been in 4.5 days) and there is absolutely no hop aroma or taste.

Really not sure where I'm going wrong so any advice would be welcome.

Cheers, Gaz.

[Lab Cat]

I think the recipe dry hop amount is way too low, but you addressed that. I usually dry hop with around 100g, and Citra along should definitely crank out some flavour, I found it a 'big' hop. Make sure you give the chux a big squeeze when you take it out.

I would bottle when ready and see how it turns out. I don't recall any of my samples tasting particularly hoppy either.

[King Ruddager]

I dry hop my pales with about 4g/L

[King Ruddager]

6 minutes ago, Lab Rat said:

Make sure you give the chux a big squeeze when you take it out

Is this actually good advice? That is, does it really work?

I've never squeezed my hop bag, but if I were to I'd be careful to try and do it without touching it.

[Gazzala]

14 minutes ago, Lab Rat said:

I don't recall any of my samples tasting particularly hoppy either.

 

Good to know.  May just be that I'm expecting something that's not gonna happen. Cheers.

 

9 minutes ago, King Ruddager said:

I dry hop my pales with about 4g/L

 

OK cool - my 100g should be just over that then (23l batch).

 

[Lab Cat]

16 minutes ago, King Ruddager said:

Is this actually good advice? That is, does it really work?

I've never squeezed my hop bag, but if I were to I'd be careful to try and do it without touching it.

No idea if it's good advice, but I do it all the time after cleaning my hands with starsan. No beers have been harmed in the process so far.

[King Ruddager]

I usually let mine drip for a bit but don't squeeze. Might try tonight.

[Otto Von Blotto]

You probably would get more flavour by increasing the amounts of the short boil and flameout additions as well as the dry hop. It's somewhat limited with kits depending on the kit because you don't want to over bitter it, but if you use a kit with low bitterness then you can load up the late additions without that happening. 

With my pale ales (note these are AG not from kits) I usually use about 120g spread pretty evenly over a 10 minute, flameout and cube addition; these also provide most of the bitterness, and I use a small long boiled addition to top up the bitterness as well as give it a bit of bite. Dry hops are usually about 50-60g. I'm happy with the amount of flavour and aroma from this. 

[Lab Cat]

Yes, it may be a kit thing.

I only started bittering hops recently, notably with my L'il IPA, based on the Anarchy IPA recipe. I did 25g Chinook @ 20m, and DH 25g with 50g Simcoe. I got a well-bittered IPA style but not a lot of hop flavour.

My Tropic Ale was a basic pale can with no bittering, just 100g Mosaic 50 Citra dry hopped. I've done this twice with consistent results. This was a well flavoured, tropical hoppy beer. All my testers loved this. Next fave was the same with 100g Galaxy DH.

I'm making English Bitters at the moment, so bittering is needed, but when I go back to pales, I think I'll be sticking to dry hopping. I'm not a big IPA fan and prefer hop flavour over bitterness with this style. Dry hopping and going big might be the way to go for GAZ.

[Marty_G]

for what it is worth I think the regimes you are doing would be fine....but day 8 is late to dry hop ... most recipes i read are to dry hop ales on day 3 or 4 ... I have recently brewed some APA and IPA with similar hop additions ... approx 25g 15 minute boils and 25g 15 minute flameouts and 25g dry hop using, depending on the brew, amarillo, citra and/or centennial and I find them hoppy  enough for me ... maybe it is your taste buds or the hops you are using are crap or a bit from column A and a bit from column B ...  also from reading i have done on other forums those that love hoppy beers go crazy on the hop addition and put in 100's of grams .... one fella was using 250g dry hop of cascade to make a NEIPA cant remember his boil ... to me that would be more passito than beer   ...  

[BlackSands]

It get's complicated. Aside from personal tastes and preferences there's many variables involved including of course your own taste bud sensitivity...   and that certainly declines with the passing of the years.   If you're a 20yr old then no worries!    

Looking at that recipe, it's a pretty lightweight malt base, there's certainly not much flavour in the Cerveza kit.  I've generally found you can use less hops to achieve a similar level of perceived hoppiness where you might otherwise require up to double the amount in a beer with a fuller, more complex malt profile.   75g total hops in the Shark Attack recipe would usually be enough for me with that lightweight base, particularly with those particular hops listed.  Your increase to 100g dry hop would probably be a bit OTT for me though would be more typical in a maltier recipe.

[Gazzala]

 

2 hours ago, MartyG1525230263 said:

but day 8 is late to dry hop

 

Day 8 was according to the recipe.  I've seen other recipes dry hopping on day 4/5 etc.. but being new to this I tend to follow the specific recipe as I just don't know enough to change it. I assumed day 8 was necessary to get the recipe correct.

 

2 hours ago, MartyG1525230263 said:

maybe it is your taste buds or the hops you are using are crap

 

Could be - but the hops were bought just a few days prior to brewing - and I can taste the hops in commercial pale ales - so I think I'm OK on both of those.

 

51 minutes ago, BlackSands said:

Aside from personal tastes and preferences there's many variables involved including of course your own taste bud sensitivity...   and that certainly declines with the passing of the years.   If you're a 20yr old then no worries!

 

As for personal tastes - I like most kinds of beers. My favourite beer is probably Bombardier which is an English Bitter so not hoppy, but in pale ales I like Little Creatures, Bridge Road, Moon Dog - if I could get hoppiness like any of those I'd be happy. 

Thanks for the input everyone.

[Norris!]

When I want big hop flavour and aroma and  I am using the cerveza as a base, I go with a 10 min and flameout addition and about 8g a liter dry hop. If you are searching for the hops you need more and also need to ensure you are keeping them in the freezer as airtight as you can make them and that they are fresh and stored properly at the store. If they keep the hops in the store window, keep walking.

The XPA looks like a fair recipe, it just needs more hops. I would double the flameout addition. If the current beer is slightly under bittered, I would keep the 10min addition. If It is the right bitterness or overbittered I would drop the 10 min addition for about a 75g flameout with those three hops equally. Basically plug it into some software or whatever to ensure your bitterness is where you want it.

Hope that helps

Norris

[Norris!]

6 hours ago, Gazzala said:

• 12.5g Centennial @ 15mins
• 12.5g Citra + 12.5g Amarillo @ flameout
• 12.5g Citra + 12.5g Centennial + 12.5g Amarillo @ dry hop on day 8 (using the chux cloth method - placed on top of the brew)

 

Sorry meant this:

15 min 12.5g centennial

25g of citra, centennial and Amarillo at flameout for 10 to 15 minutes.

Then 7g a liter dry hop. If you are not getting good aroma and flavour similar to the Balter XPA I would be surprised.

[Marty_G]

3 minutes ago, Norris! said:

Then 7g a liter dry hop. If you are not getting good aroma and flavour similar to the Balter XPA I would be surprised.

What day the dry hop Norris? 

[Gazzala]

Cheers Norris. I will definitely make this again so next time will follow your hops schedule - if it comes out like the Balter XPA I will be a very happy chap! 

[Gazzala]

2 minutes ago, MartyG1525230263 said:

What day the dry hop Norris? 

 

Ah, yes - good point Marty!

[Norris!]

I like to dry hop when fermentation is almost done. So if I started at 1.045 I would dry hop when the gravity is about 1.02 or 1.016. That is just my preference.

[Norris!]

That is usually around day 4. Well I start taking gravity samples on day 4 and go from there. I want to taste the beer before I toss in $$ worth of hops.

[Marty_G]

14 minutes ago, Norris! said:

I like to dry hop when fermentation is almost done. So if I started at 1.045 I would dry hop when the gravity is about 1.02 or 1.016. That is just my preference.

And why is that ... i usually dry hop on day 4 but for no reason other i figure done by day 7 and then cold crashed for 3 days so hopped for 6 days or a week before bottled  ... how long do you hop for rather when do you hop ... 

[The Captain!!]

So when dry hopping during active fermentation some of the aroma oils are said to get driven off with the CO2. 

Depending on how much you dry hop I would wait till it’s just about finished then dry hop to contain all the aroma you have paid good dollars for. EG if your expecting an FG of 1.010 I’d dry hop at 1.012. Fermentation will eat up any oxygen should it enter and save all the precious aroma. 

[Marty_G]

1 minute ago, The Captain!! said:

So when dry hopping during active fermentation some of the aroma oils are said to get driven off with the CO2. 

Depending on how much you dry hop I would wait till it’s just about finished then dry hop to contain all the aroma you have paid good dollars for. EG if your expecting an FG of 1.010 I’d dry hop at 1.012. Fermentation will eat up any oxygen should it enter and save all the precious aroma. 

That makes so much sense ... hence why a recipe would say DH on day 8 ...  so my question if one dry hops with 3 days of ferment left do the hops add anything during the crash ... 

[Norris!]

I used to wait until it was finished but I have noticed some issues with large dry hops. But I would agree with Captain to wait until 1.012 if going for lower. I might try that, instead of 80% completion than dry hop.

 

[The Captain!!]

1 minute ago, MartyG1525230263 said:

That makes so much sense ... hence why a recipe would say DH on day 8 ...  so my question if one dry hops with 3 days of ferment left do the hops add anything during the crash ... 

They’ll still provide aroma, I’m just saying that a percentage of those aromas are going to be lost or driven out of solution while fermenting. 

When dry hopping, amount, contact time and temp are a few of main things, at fermentation temps hops oils will release quicker than cold and so if it’s colder you’ll require more hops to do the same thing. 

I believe you get different aroma characters from different temps too. So depending on if you sit at fermentation temps while you dry hop, or cold crash and dry hop you’ll get different aromas coming through. 

 

[Marty_G]

2 minutes ago, The Captain!! said:

They’ll still provide aroma, I’m just saying that a percentage of those aromas are going to be lost or driven out of solution while fermenting. 

When dry hopping, amount, contact time and temp are a few of main things, at fermentation temps hops oils will release quicker than cold and so if it’s colder you’ll require more hops to do the same thing. 

I believe you get different aroma characters from different temps too. So depending on if you sit at fermentation temps while you dry hop, or cold crash and dry hop you’ll get different aromas coming through. 

 

thanks .... this stuff is so interesting .... funny the way the learning goes when brewing ... .sort of got my head around temp control first ... then yeast second  .... now need to get a grip of the complexity of hop additions ...