King Ruddager Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 Anything to know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 Grind it into flour and make bread with it? No idea mate, never used it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 Given it hasn't gone through the malting process to produce alpha & beta amylase enzymes for use in conversion of starches into fermentable sugars, if added directly to a mash the unmalted wheat will only release starches into the mash volume. You would need to do a step mash with a beta gluc/protein rest & have enough base malt added to convert the starch this unmalted grain would release, or expect a fairly hazy beer as an end result. When reading about this subject a while ago, I found a comment made by a guy over on HBT quite funny... Quote ...you'd be better off baking a loaf of bread, eating it, and using that energy to walk to the LHBS and buy some malted grains. Cheers, Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Captain!! Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 I was about to mention that you’ll need plenty of base malt to convert any into usable sugars. Im on the same opinion that your probably better off using it to make bread or an Hazy IPA if you get my drift, that’s how they make the beer hazy right? Ha ha ha ha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ruddager Posted March 13, 2019 Author Share Posted March 13, 2019 Background story is that I had a very nice Belgian White Ale on the weekend and thought it'd be nice to brew something along those lines. Apparently they use 40-50% unmalted wheat and pilsner to make up the rest, plus maaaaaybe a small amount of oats and munich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Captain!! Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 Well sounds like a nice plan @King Ruddager I think you’ll have to do the rests as Lusty has pointed out and have a sufficient amount of base malt to convert. Youll be killing it then!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 I confess I've often wondered why some brewers still use unmalted grains in recipes. So I thought about it for a bit. Maybe they're used to 'fill out the beer' without compromising the overall flavour? Maybe the level of conversion is lower when using a mix of malted & unmalted grains in a mash? The FG of Ruddy's planned Belgian beer will be interesting. I'd suspect it will be higher than if malted wheat were used in place of the unmalted weight. Maybe to maintain a certain malt character in the beer where crystal & dextrin malts are not ideally suited, this is the way to go? Interesting when you start to think a bit deeper about it. Cheers, Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joolbag Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 I believe @headmaster has brewed with unmalted wheat. Burghul from memory ive brewed with rice use, I cooked it into a porridge and then added it to the mash. It was a Japanese lager style beer and I got the recipe and process from this forum. The masses loved it and quite a few of my “royal samplers” have asked me to brew it again they liked it that much. I found the cereal mash technique intriguing and it was a very cheap beer to make. A good challenge as a brewer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headmaster Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 Unmalted wheat adds something you can't get from malted wheat. Proper belgian witbiers use 30 to 50% unmalted wheat, as do quite a few other farmhouse style belgian ales, golden sours etc. It's kind of like a delicate bready doughy attribute. Usually will fall into the too hard basket for many people so they just say use the malted stuff. Fair enough. This includes many a craft brewery, that will make sell belgian wits and claim they are authentic but they have no unmalted wheat in them. If you are only using small percentages of unmalted wheat, or rice or corn or rye or spelt or whatever, like sub 25%, with a base malt that is relatively fresh and has good diastatic power, you should not need to run a protein rest to boost the enzymes to assist with full conversion. For higher percentages this is recommended. Unmalted wheat good for brewing can be bought as flaked wheat, which has been steamed and rolled, so gelatinised in that process, meaning the starches are accessible. Despite the wholesale cost of flaked wheat being similar to other brewing grains, it does appear to be quite expensive, often around $8/kg. I believe the wholesale price for this stuff in Australia is 1/6 to 1/7th of that.. I began to experiment with Burghul, a parboiled ground hard wheat product in these beers, because it's been partially cooked then dried then ground, it performs well in a mash. Not to be confused with 'cracked wheat', this is another product which is not pre cooked and therefore not gelatinised and will not convert quickly in a mash for this reason. I can buy the Burghul for $2/kg, which suits me as paying the LHBS $8 for the same thing effectively is not fun. Make sure to buy the fine Burghul though. I had some course stuff that I needed to use recently and it almost knackered my grain mill and drill trying to mill it down to a smaller size. I've made belgian witbiers using about 40% burghul that have scored well in comps, one of them got a 78 in a NSW state comp from memory and was the highest scoring witbier in that category, which was farmhouse ales that year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ruddager Posted March 13, 2019 Author Share Posted March 13, 2019 Well, the instructions in this article indicate a protein rest: https://byo.com/article/witbier-style-profile/ This guy, however, reckons he can't tell the difference: https://beerandbrewing.com/make-your-best-witbier/ Going to be an interesting process when I get around to this one, especially if I have to "top-up" the spice a little. I'm looking forward to doing something a little different! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headmaster Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 I would agree with the single infusion evaluation, it will likely just take the enzymes longer to convert when there are less of them. If you have some iodine or iodophor you can do a starch test to see if converted, or just leave it to mash for ages.. I do plenty of rests in my process, but only because I have built a HERMS and it's easy, and there is no risk of scorching on the electric element. If I didn't have that, I would not bother myself with the complication. That said though, I do love the way the protein rest got rid of my chill haze issues. The theory for this says that this rest chops the longer chain proteins into medium length chains. If you rest too low in the range, like 50c, you the enzymes can end up chopping the chains too short and you lose head retention. I've never seen this problem, but I do run closer to 54 to 55c. For my Wits I have used the traditional ground coriander seed and orange peel. Not the dried bitter curacoa peel but fresh peel. From memory may have tuned mine over three batches or so to about 10 to 15g seed and maybe 30g wet grated peel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headmaster Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Just looked up my recipe, to see what my final tune was, it was 20g peel, 11g seed. It will depend on strength of seed and peel of course. But my fist one had way too much peel Also used one chamomile teabag, Grains, Fermentables, Other kg Prop Ingredient 2.5 47% Belgian Pils (2 SRM) 2 37% Flaked Wheat 0.15 3% Munich (9 srm) 0.2 4% Acid Malt 0.5 9% Flaked Oats Boil Hops Hop Type (L/P) Grams Minutes AA% AA% Override IBUs Hersbrucker, German P 40 60 3.9 4.2 17.1 Hersbrucker, German P 10 5 3.9 4.2 0.9 Other Timed Boil Additions Ingredient Amount Minutes Coriander 11g 5 orange peel 20g 5 chamomile 5g 5 Rice Hulls 227g Mash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headmaster Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 BTW the flaked wheat was actually fine burghul wheat. My brewciper sheet does not have burghul of course.. so flaked wheat the closest thing. In fact I think it's almost unheard of, using this for making beer, but it works a treat and no ridiculous markup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ruddager Posted March 19, 2019 Author Share Posted March 19, 2019 Is it necessary to use rice hulls if I'm biabing this? Even if it's not completely necessary, will it have an effect? My rye batches are always super-sticky and it seems this is the same. How do you calculate how much to use? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ruddager Posted March 31, 2019 Author Share Posted March 31, 2019 Here's another question - how much zest (in weight) could you expect to get from one orange? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Captain!! Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 I’m going to try some raw wheat in one of my next brews to see how it goes. Sorry Ruddy, no idea about the zest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naughty Corner Brewing Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 On 3/31/2019 at 1:33 PM, King Ruddager said: Here's another question - how much zest (in weight) could you expect to get from one orange? Totally guessing around the 5 to 10 gram range. Lot of volume but not really much there really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ruddager Posted April 1, 2019 Author Share Posted April 1, 2019 Hmm, I just found a thing which reckons you get 2-3 tablespoons of zest from an orange, and another that reckons 1 tbsp of zest weighs 6g. So, to be safe I'm going to need 5 or 6 oranges to get 60g I reckon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ruddager Posted April 2, 2019 Author Share Posted April 2, 2019 5% rice hulls apparently ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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