Pimping Coopers ROTM

[PaddyBrew2]

So my Anarchy IPA pack arrived today. It comes with 75 gms of hops. 25 each of chinook ( boil 30 mins ) simcoe and cascade ( dry hop)

recipe states that should come out at 40 ibu’s. 

Coopers APA is the base

now I know Coopers are cost constrained so I went off and bought me 100 gms of  azacca hops. 14-16% alpha acid. First time ever using but comes highly recommended from LHBS bloke. 

I want to get my IBUs up to up around 60 mark and also add some more flavour and aroma. 

Anyone care to advise me on adding some hop additions to the already added 25gms chinook to hit the desired bitterness and also add some lovely flavour and aroma 

cheers

 

[Hairy]

I love Azacca. Use it late, flame out and dry hop.

[Beerlust]

Hi Paddybrew.

I had a good look at the recipe & the hop schedule. I have a problem with a number of points listed in the recipe. The boil volume & malt concentration for one. After the grain strain, you might have just over 2 litres of wort that you are being asked to add 250gms of dry malt extract to for the beginning of a 30min boil. This SG wort will give smoother, but lower returns of noticeable bitterness that may in fact produce something as a final level near 40 IBU. I worry about the isomerisation of the Chinook hops over 30mins in this boil, & the potential for creating excessive maillard reaction of the wort being boiled at this consistency. This aspect may be intentional on Coopers part, but I've not seen anything like this in previous listings for beers like this.

Given that this is an IPA, I'd feel more comfortable with the eventual IBU having some bite, & being closer as a BU:GU to the OG figure. 

Just my 2 cents.

Lusty.

[PaddyBrew2]

Cheers Lusty.  I just finished it there and sprinkled the yeast.  I kind of winged it as I went along. I went with 25 gms chinook 30 mins , 25 gms azacca 10 mins , 10 gms cascade 5 mins and 25 gms azacca , 10 gms simcoe At flame out. Just for $hits and giggles. The brew day couldn’t have gone any smoother. I even used 15 litres of refrigerated Britta filtered water I prepped yesterday. Yeast was sprinkled as soon as I reached 21 litres , wort was 19 degrees.  Took an OG and it was 1.063 as I added some dextrose. Fingers crossed it’s a good one 

[Beerlust]

How many litres do you end up boiling the hops in?

[PaddyBrew2]

About 4.  I liberally applied half the DME and some dextrose 

[Beerlust]

The boil volume has a large effect on how hops isomerise in it. The higher the specific gravity of the wort you begin the boil in, the less "bite" (for a better word) you gain from the hops boiled in it. In an IPA it is an important factor how the bitterness presents at the glass.

I'm glad you upped the boil volume & will be interested in how the brew turns out.

Feel free to tag me once you have it on the pour.

Best of luck with the brew,

Lusty.

[PaddyBrew2]

So with isomerisation, in order to extract bitterness what is more important. The larger the boil volume or the gravity of that boil volume ?  I’m learning as I go and always keen to assimilate new info 

[Beerlust]

1 minute ago, PaddyBrew2 said:

So with isomerisation, in order to extract bitterness what is more important. The larger the boil volume or the gravity of that boil volume ?  I’m learning as I go and always keen to assimilate new info 

Primarily, the gravity of that boil volume you begin with.

Because traditionally bittering hops are added at a point where they are boiled for 60-90mins. As you boil wort the specific gravity (SG) increases due to the evaporation of liquid from boil off increasing the percentage of malt to the percentage of water in the boiling wort.

One thing that is rarely mentioned these days on the forum is that kit, extract & partial extract brewers can start with a very specific gravity of their choice to begin their boil at regardless of the beer style they are making. All-grain brewers are very restricted in this area due to having to make the entire wort from a grain base & usually boil it at full volume.

Cheers,

Lusty.

[The Captain!!]

12 minutes ago, Beerlust said:

One thing that is rarely mentioned these days on the forum is that kit, extract & partial extract brewers can start with a very specific gravity of their choice to begin their boil at regardless of the beer style they are making. All-grain brewers are very restricted in this area due to having to make the entire wort from a grain base & usually boil it at full volume.

I see where your going with this Lusty but I think your taking away from all grain being a blank canvas and you can do whatever you want to do with a blank canvas.

Yes, you need gravity/volume/time to extract bitterness. Full volume boils has a better extraction of the bittering compounds. Only makes sense if your doing smaller boils then “diluting” in the FV. If that makes sense.

I find that for an IPA I get a better bitterness feel from doing a FWA and a 30-20 min addition. The 30-20min Rounds out the bitterness. Rather than being just bitey from the 60min plus boil.  Which is obviously what lusty was saying in his previous post. 

Im not saying Lusty is wrong or anything like that, just think that as an all grain brewer you can manipulate your wort however you like, you just need to know how to.

[Beerlust]

11 hours ago, The Captain1525230099 said:

I see where your going with this Lusty but I think your taking away from all grain being a blank canvas and you can do whatever you want to do with a blank canvas.

In this scenario an AG brewer generally doesn't. An example...

If I am producing a 100% AG based wort for say a higher gravity brew like an IPA where I require an OG of approx. 1.065, to account for boil-off etc. you might have to produce a post mash/pre-boil gravity wort of (purely guessing) approx. 1.060 prior to the commencement of the boil. So your pre-boil gravity is dictated to you by the intended original gravity of the beer you are making.

As an extract/partial mash brewer I can pick whatever pre-boil gravity I want with whatever type of beer I'm making as it does not matter what final gravity I end up with post boil due to the fact I top up with extract directly in the fermenter to attain my intended OG prior to pitching the yeast.

11 hours ago, The Captain1525230099 said:

...Full volume boils has a better extraction of the bittering compounds.

This is centered around a somewhat defunct science that today largely no longer applies. The premise for it comes from the restriction (at the time) where only low alpha hops were available. Thus in a small volume boil creating higher levels of bitterness had a cap based on overcrowding issues of too much weight of hops in a smaller liquid volume. Since the development of high alpha hops, this is largely no longer an issue for smaller volume boils.

11 hours ago, The Captain1525230099 said:

...Only makes sense if your doing smaller boils then “diluting” in the FV. If that makes sense.

I don't always have to "dilute" in the FV. If I want, I can increase the specific gravity above what I produced from the boil.

11 hours ago, The Captain1525230099 said:

...Im not saying Lusty is wrong or anything like that, just think that as an all grain brewer you can manipulate your wort however you like, you just need to know how to.

The fermentability of my wort is the only thing I've run into that I cannot manipulate a great deal due simply to not being able to mash enough base malt.

Cheers,

Lusty.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Most AG brewers are using software to construct recipes which accounts for the predicted pre boil gravity when calculating IBUs from boil additions. Sure you will use more hops than you would with a lower boil gravity but for long boiled additions it probably only equates to a few grams especially using high alpha hops. 

I generally start with a boil gravity in the high 1.030s to low 1.040s to wind up with an OG around 1.045-1.050 for most of my beers so it's not really any different to an extract boil. When I brewed that big stout the pre boil gravity was about 1.070, OG was 1.0855. I think I used 100g of Magnum to hit the required IBU. I'll have to check the recipe but I think it was around 100 in that beer. 

[Beerlust]

2 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

...I generally start with a boil gravity in the high 1.030s to low 1.040s to wind up with an OG around 1.045-1.050 for most of my beers so it's not really any different to an extract boil. When I brewed that big stout the pre boil gravity was about 1.070, OG was 1.0855. I think I used 100g of Magnum to hit the required IBU. I'll have to check the recipe but I think it was around 100 in that beer. 

That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. Using your "big stout" as an example, I can make my pre-boil gravity whatever I want for that brew.

You full volume AG'ers can't. 

Cheers,

Lusty.

[The Captain!!]

16 hours ago, Beerlust said:

One thing that is rarely mentioned these days on the forum is that kit, extract & partial extract brewers can start with a very specific gravity of their choice to begin their boil at regardless of the beer style they are making. All-grain brewers are very restricted in this area due to having to make the entire wort from a grain base & usually boil it at full volume.

Like I said lusty, I’m not saying your wrong.

I just think your detracting from the blank canvas AG brewers have. 

Like the question was

16 hours ago, PaddyBrew2 said:

So with isomerisation, in order to extract bitterness what is more important. The larger the boil volume or the gravity of that boil volume ?  I’m learning as I go and always keen to assimilate new info 

If we are talking Isomerisation of bittering units, the bigger the volume and gravity (to a point) the better the extraction of bittering units.

Beersmith is calculated on a 100% extraction rate due to the “ standard” batch size boiling 30 odd litres. If I had a system of 300l my extraction percentage goes up, let’s say to 150%. Therefore larger volume, better extraction of bitterness.

Your point being that smaller volume with a gravity of whatever you choose can extract bitterness, of coarse it can, however I don’t think primarily, I think they work hand in hand. 

[Beerlust]

6 minutes ago, The Captain1525230099 said:

I just think your detracting from the blank canvas AG brewers have. 

Not at all. It's the main reason a lot of home brewers end up there. 

I'll stick my neck out here & say many make the shift to full AG without fully understanding the processes involved & what are the limiting factors in the extract/partial world measured against full AG brewing. I do, & have educated myself around many of the difficulties associated with some of the gaps between extract/partial & full blown AG brewing. Probably further than most have persevered with.

My comments here are purely centered around the ability of an extract based brewer to be able to manipulate their pre-boil gravity where a full volume AG brewer would have to step outside their usual processes to do the same (& with some difficulty). That's all.

Cheers,

Lusty.

[Otto Von Blotto]

1 hour ago, Beerlust said:

That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. Using your "big stout" as an example, I can make my pre-boil gravity whatever I want for that brew.

You full volume AG'ers can't. 

Cheers,

Lusty.

That's true but I think overall we have more control over the end product by being able to make up any grist we like, influence its fermentability etc. Extract brewers are somewhat limited in that regard. 

I don't mind not being able to choose a specific pre boil gravity. This minor disadvantage is far outweighed by the benefits I like about AG brewing.

[Beerlust]

3 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

That's true but I think overall we have more control over the end product by being able to make up any grist we like, influence its fermentability etc. Extract brewers are somewhat limited in that regard. 

I don't mind not being able to choose a specific pre boil gravity. This minor disadvantage is far outweighed by the benefits I like about AG brewing.

Agreed, & I've already conceded that aspect in my above comments & many times over many threads over the years. No argument there.

Unfortunately this response from full AG'ers comes up as a generic answer to many questions posed by non AG'ers as THE solution. In a practical sense it isn't for all home brewers given their current circumstances across a wide variety of areas of expenditure that they can commit to with their home brewing.

I try to offer suggestions to home brewers outside the easy answer of shifting to full AG that according to current AG'ers will miraculously solve all their current woes.  Many that take this "worldly" advice of brewing AG pre-maturely in their home brewing venture often suffer more pain than gain initially due to being under-educated across a broad range of areas prior to the shift.

I defend a very important area of a brewers knowledgeable transition phase between extract & full AG & try to explain many facets of the differences, & cop a lot of $#@% from you AG'ers along the way, & undeservedly so.

I get tired of defending that interim space & the learning you should have before moving forward sometimes. Many of you AG'ers forget where you came from.

Lusty.

[Ronnie Dale]

I would love to help you out Lusty, but my request for help on the Old Milwaukee thread has gone unanswered

[ChristinaS1]

Thanks Lusty. As a partial masher myself, I appreciate your trying to carve out a space for it on the forum. I agree that spending some time partial mashing before going all grain could be a very useful for a lot of people and ought to be encouraged. In fact, going all grain doesn't have to be the final destination.

All grain isn't for everyone. I simply can't do full size all AG batches, for a variety of reasons. While I could do half size AG batches, I can't be bothered to put that amount of work in for just half of the end product. Unlike many on the forum, I find brew days a PITA and still somewhat stressful. For me home brewing is a way of saving money and getting access to better beer.

A partial mash of 900gm-1.5kg can make a big difference to a kit; some of my partial mash brews are at least as good or better than the craft beer made in my small city.  While it takes quite a bit more time than steeping a few specialty grains, the taste is much better, and many more styles are possible. Give it a try and you may find there is no need to go AG. 

Cheers,

Christina.

[Otto Von Blotto]

My point originally wasn't about going AG solving all problems, more that the pre boil gravity being a direct result of the target OG rather than being chosen by the brewer, isn't really a problem. 

I'm not saying partial mash brewing is useless, or that everyone who does it should move to AG because they're already practically taking that long anyway or whatever else. Personally, I skipped it and went straight from extract brewing to AG. I didn't really see the point at the time and looking back I still don't. 

But if someone was explaining to me the pros and cons of both methods and the only real pro they could come up with for partial mashing was the ability to choose your own pre boil gravity, well, honestly it's not much of a selling point. 

[Hairy]

I did partial mash brewing for about 12 months before shifting at AG. Nothing wrong with it and I made some awesome beers.

I moved to AG because I had the capacity and capability and the partial mash beers were taking almost as long to make.

Just make what you want and enjoy it (and move to AG ).

[The Captain!!]

I have no affiliation to the way anybody makes beer. If that’s the way you want to make it, then sweet. Doesn’t bother me. I commend anyone who makes their beer the way they want to and I’ll always give positive feedback to encourage more development to that brewer.  

I make my beer the way I want to.

My point was that to extract bitterness from hops more effectively you need gravity, volume, heat and time. They all work together in simultaneous unity to extract the wonderful bitterness to our sweet worts.  That’s all my point was, I don’t believe one is more important than the other. That’s all. 

Captain. 

[Otto Von Blotto]

Boiling hops in plain water is the most effective way to extract bitterness, unfortunately it doesn't taste very good hence boiling hops in wort along with the other reasons wort is boiled.

[The Captain!!]

1 hour ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Boiling hops in plain water is the most effective way to extract bitterness, unfortunately it doesn't taste very good hence boiling hops in wort along with the other reasons wort is boiled.

Yep, completely agree, however for brewing beer you want wort. 

 

[Beerlust]

13 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

My point originally wasn't about going AG solving all problems, more that the pre boil gravity being a direct result of the target OG rather than being chosen by the brewer, isn't really a problem. 

I'm not saying partial mash brewing is useless, or that everyone who does it should move to AG because they're already practically taking that long anyway or whatever else. Personally, I skipped it and went straight from extract brewing to AG. I didn't really see the point at the time and looking back I still don't. 

But if someone was explaining to me the pros and cons of both methods and the only real pro they could come up with for partial mashing was the ability to choose your own pre boil gravity, well, honestly it's not much of a selling point. 

As you stated above, You've NEVER partial mashed, so how can you possibly know the benefits of doing it in some capacity with the inclusion of extract malt(s)? 

Christina makes some very good points in her last post that I agree wholeheartedly with. 

In no manner have I said I have stayed a partial mash brewer because I can manipulate my pre-boil gravity as a "selling point". It's just a fact I bothered to mention because very few others take notice of such things.

The extract world has moved on in leaps & bounds in what is available over the last 5 or so years to the point where an extract brewer has access to a much wider spectrum of malt derived flavours (in extract form) than were available prior.

Just to put this conversation into perspective, to this day, kit based brewers occasionally still win categories in home brewing competitions.

I know this stuff, because I've stayed in this space. 

Cheers & good brewing,

Lusty.