All Grain for Newbies

[Worthog]

I have question about a 'taste' in my AG beer which I  think could be a process driven taste rather than ingredients.

I do AG Biab with my mash beginning at 22L and my final FV base wort volume from my cube being 14L leaving the crap behind when syphoning first from mash pot to cube, then no-chill cube to FV, next day.

The taste I query in final beer, bottled and chilled after >4weeks, is best described as 'tannin' (like wine), a dry sensation/taste inside the cheeks, and back of of roof of mouth.

Is this residue "hot break" taste, or what?

Cheers

[Hairy]

I take it you don’t sparge so we can rule out temperature of the sparge water.

Perhaps it is a pH issue. What is your water like?

I doubt it is the hot break causing the issue.

[Worthog]

21 minutes ago, Hairy said:

I take it you don’t sparge so we can rule out temperature of the sparge water.

Perhaps it is a pH issue. What is your water like?

I doubt it is the hot break causing the issue.

No sparge. Tap water for mash, then 8 litre FV top up with rain (tank) water; always used char filtered tank water prior to beginning AG mashes.

The town water always seemed a bit chlorinated for me, but very drinkable obviously, and I boil for 1hr to complete mash.

I  am making 4%ABV pales.

Cheers

[Hairy]

Perhaps get some pH strips and measure the pH of the mash.

[The Captain!!]

I think it’s a water issue too, either ph or mineral. 

[Worthog]

Just now, Hairy said:

Perhaps get some pH strips and measure the pH of the mash.

I will get some strips and measure my mash pH to 5.2 to 5.5?

Could the problem come from my no-rinse phosphoric acid sanitiser (StellarSan) which I leave in the cube and FV between batches and just empty it out prior to use? Leaving the phosphoric acid mix in these pieces of equipment is not something I used to do. 

Cheers

 

[Hairy]

I don't think the small amount of sanitiser left behind would alter the pH very much.

Here is an article I found that you may find useful:

https://beerandbrewing.com/off-flavor-of-the-week-astringency/

[Otto Von Blotto]

Sounds like polyphenols. It could be a process issue leaving too many of them in the wort. 

Polyclar removes them if you're comfortable using such things in your beer.

[Worthog]

Thanks Hairy and Kelsey. 

That article indicated potential issues with parts of my process. That dry tannic polyphenolics seems to be the problem.

I've been mashing all base and specialty grains for 90m (too long) and the temp could possibly be as high as 66c at times. I also mash out at 78c; may be too high?

I  do need to check pH, and yes, Kelsey, I will use polyclar if it is going to improve my beer both tastewise and esthetically. 

This is all driving an early Crown Urn purchase for better process control.

Cheers and thanks.

[Hairy]

2 minutes ago, Worthog said:

I've been mashing all base and specialty grains for 90m (too long) and the temp could possibly be as high as 66c at times. I also mash out at 78c; may be too high?

 

This seems fine. It may be a factor if you have a large amount of dark/roasted malts.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Yeah I don't think there's anything wrong with the mash either. I use similar temperatures and always mash out around 78. Used to mash for 90 minutes and I suppose I still do, I just split it between a 70 minute main mash rest and a 15 minute rest at 72. 5-10 minutes for it to heat those few degrees adds up to about 90.

It could be an issue with the boil. I'll have to revisit the articles I've found on wort boiling as I can't remember it except for there being mention of something to do with polyphenols. 

[Worthog]

I've got pH strips coming (100 for $10 ebay).

What pH should I be looking at for a 4kg mash of pale malt grain?  5.2?

Cheers

[Otto Von Blotto]

The generally acceptable range is 5.2-5.6, and it's considered better at the low end of that range for the paler beer styles. I don't know exactly what mine are but the predictions in beersmith are always within that range and the beer turns out fine.

That said I think a decent pH meter would be more accurate than strips for measuring mash pH.

[Silmaril]

Slight hijack if I may...

For those experienced enough and prepared to advise, what would you suggest in terms of equipment for someone considering the potential possibility of maybe one day soon but not too soon but hey you never know getting into doing an all grain brew?

1. Robobrew
2. Crown urn/kettle
3. Other - please specify!

Thanks!

[Otto Von Blotto]

I wouldn't advise anything until you're certain on going all grain. I've only ever used a crown urn so it gets my vote. Built to last. It does have limitations with full step mashing for instance, so if you were to do a lot of that then something else might be better. I don't (not full step mashing anyway), so it suits me fine. 

[The Captain!!]

I think it all depends on personal preference as to how much time you want to spend on your brew day. And of course money. 

BIAB brewing is probably the next step up from extract. It does have limitations as pointed out by Kelsey. High gravity beers through malt alone for instance but there are ways around it like doing a reiterated mash. 

Full step mashing is probably the thing that is harder to work around. 

Robobrew or Grainfather can overcome these hurdles but lower volumes, however there are bigger versions out there now. 

I use a 40l crown urn and no chill.

One day I will get a 3v system after I move into my next house as I will build a brew shed next to my music studio. 

Another all in one system is a bruemeister, not sure on spelling. 

 

[Hairy]

There are also the Guten Brewing systems to consider now. 

[The Captain!!]

27 minutes ago, Hairy said:

There are also the Guten Brewing systems to consider now. 

I was trying to think of that name. Good man Hairy. 

[therealthing691]

The guten I have seen at keg king  they look ok much of a muchness to the RbV3 in looks 

 

[Smashed Crabs]

@Silmaril Do what I did, spend a cheeky pineapple get urself a 19L pot from Big W ($20) a 3 x pack of paint strainer bags for your grain ($7) Digital Thermometer from Bunnings ($20) and grab yourself a Snag while your there ($2.5). That's what I did to see if its something I want to venture into. So far iv made a full AG small batch to see if there is much taste difference and a 15 Partial. Like myself I am looking at a AG system like the Guten and the V3 just wanted to test drive before I took the plunge and help tweek my skills.

 

[Worthog]

On 11/5/2018 at 5:37 PM, Hairy said:

I take it you don’t sparge so we can rule out temperature of the sparge water.

Perhaps it is a pH issue. What is your water like?

I doubt it is the hot break causing the issue.

I have just tested my two different water sources, but I haven't tested a mash yet.

My tapwater is 5.75. My tank (rain) water is 4.5 using test strips.

Looks like I should use rain water for my mash in future as it has a better starting pH (?)

Cheers

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

That's quite acidic for tap water. Usually it's slightly alkaline. Our tap water is about 7.7-7.9 pH

[Worthog]

44 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

That's quite acidic for tap water. Usually it's slightly alkaline. Our tap water is about 7.7-7.9 pH

Yeah, I reckon kits n bits brewers would find it good as gold.

[Otto Von Blotto]

I don't think the pH of the water itself has much effect anyway, it's more the mineral composition of it that affects mash pH. To keep the mash pH lower you want a low carbonate content. 

[Worthog]

37 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

I don't think the pH of the water itself has much effect anyway, it's more the mineral composition of it that affects mash pH. To keep the mash pH lower you want a low carbonate content. 

I'll be using the rain water and I'll measure the mash pH 10m in. I'll know more then.