Guest Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 Hi guys. As my adventures into improving the quality of my home-brewing continue, you come across odd bits of information along the way. As an open question, what do you guys know/think about throwing portions of yeast into a boil/cook 10 minutes before it's completion to act as a nutrient for your pitched yeast? Is it really that beneficial? Can it effectively substitute for "upping" a yeast volume before pitching? If so how do you measure the efficency of the amount you throw into the boil 10mins out from completion as a viable nutrient for your eventual pitched yeast? How does this compare to making a decent "starter"? All views welcomed. Anthony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisF9 Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 I've just done it on a brew, no scientific basis as to why apart from I saw it mentioned on here a few times, it made sense and I had spare kit yeast packets in the fridge. I figure I'm just giving my little friends their two fruit and five veg [biggrin] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordEoin Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 i think that boiling a fist full of raisins will do the same thing, but i could be wrong on that one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 19, 2012 Author Share Posted November 19, 2012 what do you guys know/think about throwing portions of yeast into a boil/cook 10 minutes before it's completion to act as a nutrient for your pitched yeast? Is it really that beneficial? Yes there are a lot of benefits in it. Some of which are: 1/ You will reduce lag time which in turn provides less chance of infection or unwanted flavors. 2/ It will also improve your viable yeast so instead of being like Clark Kent they will go into the phonebox and come out like Superman. 3/ It increases yeast activity 4/ It can help reduce any Diacetyl 5/ It will help with attenuation 6/ It will benefit yeast growth 7/ you will have less chance to get a stuck fermentation Can it effectively substitute for "upping" a yeast volume before pitching? If so how do you measure the efficency of the amount you throw into the boil 10mins out from completion as a viable nutrient for your eventual pitched yeast? No. Although it will aid in the yeast growth rate, you should still pitch the correct amount of viable yeast. How does this compare to making a decent "starter"? How does it compare??... Second rate imo. A starter will always be better but we aren't comparing apples with apples here though. Providing nutrient and creating a starter are 2 entirely different things/processes. A starter also needs time to create and then if you need to step it up, then even more time. A yeast as a nutrient maybe at hand and is quick and easy to use if need be as a nutrient. Using yeast as a nutrient is usually done with yeast you are more than likely won't use. Therefore, you now have a second option as to what to do with it. If you want to use nutrient regularly then buy a nutrient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 19, 2012 Author Share Posted November 19, 2012 i think that boiling a fist full of raisins will do the same thing' date=' but i could be wrong on that one[/quote'] LMAO... I don't think I should even comment on that LordEoin [alien] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 19, 2012 Author Share Posted November 19, 2012 That's 'Super' knowledge there BillK & very helpful to now know. Thank you. [happy] Out of sheer curiosity, does the yeast you throw into the boil have to be a brewing yeast? As for the line about the raisins... I'm putting that down to some sort of weird Irish/Tasmanian thing. [lol] Anthony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 19, 2012 Author Share Posted November 19, 2012 I would suggest that you do need brewers yeast, I doubt if bakers yeast is packaged with the same nutrient. Happy to be corrected if anyone has evidence to the contrary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne (Captain Yobbo) Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 I would suggest that you do need brewers yeast, I doubt if bakers yeast is packaged with the same nutrient. Happy to be corrected if anyone has evidence to the contrary I was reading on John Palmers website about yeast hulls Yeast Hulls - This is essentially dead yeast, the carcasses of which act as agglomeration sites and contain some useful residual lipids. It is useful but as it seems needs to be supplemented with zinc etc so killing baking yeast will give you the Hulls but not the other goodness that yeast require. Link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordEoin Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 i think that boiling a fist full of raisins will do the same thing' date=' but i could be wrong on that one[/quote'] LMAO... I don't think I should even comment on that LordEoin [alien] I'm serious, google it. I've used it for wine and cider and it does the job. Couldn't be bothered for beer, but if I did I'd just use a commercial nutrient. They're very cheap (6euro for enough to do 1000liters of beer) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 21, 2012 Author Share Posted November 21, 2012 Out of sheer curiosity' date=' does the yeast you throw into the boil have to be a brewing yeast?[/quote'] I would say not unless you want a decent beer at the end of the day.... baker's yeast make bread, brewer's yeast make beer. The idea of using yeast as a nutrient is that you are in fact doing this. i.e. brewer's dried yeast come packed with all the goodies (in search for a better word)it needs to help kick start the yeast. By boiling these packs you are in fact killing the actual yeast but retaining their goodies to pitch into your wort. I stand to be corrected now but, as far as I am aware, baker's yeast is just yeast. If you boil this then you will kill it, simple really. Therefore, by adding this to your wort will provide no benefit at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisF9 Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Out of sheer curiosity, does the yeast you throw into the boil have to be a brewing yeast? Anthony. If you look in the brewers yeast you can see the powdered nutrient stuff mixed in with the yeast, you don't see the same thing in bakers yeast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I thought that yeast feed off dead yeast so using bakers yeast will have some benefit. However, brewing yeast naturally has more vitamins etc than bakers yeast and also comes packed with nutrients (as Bill mentioned). So I guess you can use bakers yeast but brewing yeast would be better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne (Captain Yobbo) Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Yeah the only benefit of using bakers yeast is you get the yeast hulls might as well put the money you spend on bakers yeast towards some proper brewers yeast nutrient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tropico Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Our kiwi friends who distill may more knowledge on this subject. Basically they ferment white sugar and distill it. Just sugar, yeast and nutrient. Part of the nutrients they add may include boiled yeast cake from previous ferments, and as already mentioned includes a few compounds the live yeast will consume, which may otherwise be missing from the rest of the nutrients added (like DAP). From memory this process doesn't smell very nice at all as terrible odours are released when the yeast cells burst, and I wouldn't add it to a beer brew. Distillers can get away with it because any off smells are cleaned up by distilling and subsequent filtering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 22, 2012 Author Share Posted November 22, 2012 There have been extensive tests with olive oil as a substitute, will try and dig up The link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tropico Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 You could also try: Epsom Salts: for magnesium (use in moderation because of after effects of any remaining Epsom salts) Calcium Carbonate: for Calcium (but mainly as a pH buffer) Citric acid or Lemon juice for acidity (lemon juice has a wider range of nutrients) tomato paste (no added salt) Vegemite or Vitamin B tablet or maybe a pinch of trace elements. But the beer kit and yeast pack should have all the required nutrients. (Hmmm, maybe hold the Epsom salts) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Eh!L Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 No need to buy or make up a nutrient recipe. I suggest getting a high quality yeast to use with your Cooper's kits and soon enough you will have stockpiled several packets of Kit yeast that you can chuck in at the end of a boil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristinaS1 Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Out of sheer curiosity' date=' does the yeast you throw into the boil have to be a brewing yeast?[/quote']I would say not unless you want a decent beer at the end of the day.... baker's yeast make bread, brewer's yeast make beer. The idea of using yeast as a nutrient is that you are in fact doing this. i.e. brewer's dried yeast come packed with all the goodies (in search for a better word) it needs to help kick start the yeast. By boiling these packs you are in fact killing the actual yeast but retaining their goodies to pitch into your wort. I stand to be corrected now but, as far as I am aware, baker's yeast is just yeast. If you boil this then you will kill it, simple really. Therefore, by adding this to your wort will provide no benefit at all. Hi. Just resurrecting an old thread. I have been doing some reading on the subject of yeast hulls, DAP, and commercial yeast nutrient. I believe that while commercial yeast nutrient, like Fermaid K, has added vitamins and minerals, and often DAP too, brewer's yeast, like your spare pack of Coopers dry yeast, does not. I too stand to be corrected, but I think that the only other thing in a package of dry brewer's yeast is emulsifier. Yeast hulls do not supply an appreciable amount of FAN but, as John Palmer says, does supply some lipids and "agglomeration sites," whatever they are? Baker's yeast and brewer's yeast are the same species. The only difference is that brewer's yeast is more highly purified, and it has been selected for greater flocculation. (Note: you can make beer from baker's yeast if you put some effort into clearing it through cold crashing and using gelatin etc.) In short, I don't think there is any benefit in using brewer's yeast over baker's yeast. Boiling them just results in yeast hulls, so use whatever you have. In addition to being used at the beginning of fermentation as "yeast food," boiled (then cooled) yeast can be used like commercial yeast hulls to restart a stuck fermentation (not something I have tried myself). Here are the instructions for commercial yeast hulls (from the Morebeer website http://www.morebeer.com/view_product/15485/Yeast_Hulls_50g): "Yeast Hulls are usually the first action when you have a stuck or sluggish alcoholic or malolactic fermentation. Yeast Hulls are essentially dead yeast cells that absorb auto toxic yeast by-products that could be inhibiting your active yeast or ML culture from doing their job - finishing your fermentation! Yeast Hulls are then typically followed by Pro-Desert in the case of a stuck alcoholic fermentation or Acti Ml in the case of a stuck ML ferment. As a side note, Yeast Hulls are included in the Fermaid K mix of nutrients to help prevent problem ferments from the onset. The reason you would not use Fermaid K for most stuck ferments is that Fermaid K contains DAP. If DAP (Diammonium Phosphate) is added to the ferment past the point of metabolization by the yeast it could potentially leave an unwanted, residual flavor. Use (yeast hulls) at the rate of .5 to .9 grams per gallon....A rough approximate of weight is 1 tsp = 2 grams." This brings up the subject of DAP (Diammonium Phosphate), about which I am still unclear. John Palmer says all-extract brews, and extract plus sugar brews, can lack FAN. DAP is a ready and cheap source of FAN, so I am puzzled why we don't hear more about it on this forum? (Note: Palmer actually prefers commercial yeast nutrients containing DAP, yeast hulls, biotin and vitamins.) The time to use DAP (1/2 tsp/5 gallons) appears to be at the beginning of fermentation (but not in starters or during the rehydration process, when it is toxic; there are specialized commercial yeast nutrients designed for use in starters, like Goferm, and they don't contain DAP). Repeated small doses can also be used to help finish high gravity brews, but not after the 48 hour point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 (Note: you can make beer from baker's yeast if you put some effort into clearing it through cold crashing and using gelatin etc.) That's an evil word around these parts it seems. It should never be mentioned in the same sentence as beer. I'm actually experimenting with it at the moment, not with baker's yeast though of course, but many are not fans of it for some reason. I'd guess we don't hear much about DAP on here because the Aussie attitude seems to be, "She'll be right mate"; we just throw the wort in and pitch the yeast and let it do its thing, and pretty well every time it does do its thing. In saying that, I think a fair few are aware of yeast nutrient but perhaps haven't seen a glaring reason to bother using it - I know I certainly haven't. Having said that, if I start to experience problems that could be associated with yeast health, then I will certainly look into getting some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristinaS1 Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 I hear a lot of people on this forum have problems with S-04 finishing high. If there is an issue I wonder if adding some boiled and cooled yeast would help? Using the calculation from the yeast hulls product on the Morebeer website, the rate would be 3-5.4gm/23 liters (roughly 1.5-2.5tsp/23 liters)....Or maybe adding a teaspoon at the beginning of fermentation would help prevent problems from ever arising (and might as well add 1/2 tsp DAP at the same time). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristinaS1 Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Here is some more info on the benefits of using boiled yeast from BYO magazine: "Healthy yeast contains within its cell walls all of the nutrients it needs to survive for a short time in stasis. When yeast is boiled in the kettle the nutrients are released for the next generation. Those nutrients include amino acids, which are a source of assimilable nitrogen, and vitamins such as niacin, thiamin, pantothenate, riboflavin, folic acid, pyridoxine, and biotin. Yeast also contains minerals such as potassium, iron, copper, zinc, phosphorous, magnesium, and calcium....All of the nutrients in yeast are thermo-stable, even though the yeast cells themselves will be killed in the boil." https://byo.com/videos/item/950-keeping-your-yeast-healthy In other words, these nutrients are not added to a package of brewer's yeast, they are part of the yeast cell itself, whether brewer's yeast or baker's yeast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 So I've learned a couple of things here & come up with a proposal moving forward... 1). If I go to the fridge & all I have is a sachet of S-04 (highly unlikely btw!) & a sachet of kit yeast, I'll do the smart thing & throw the S-04 into the last 10-15mins of the boil to act as nutrient, & ferment the brew with the kit yeast! Healthy yeast contains within its cell walls all of the nutrients it needs to survive for a short time in stasis. When yeast is boiled in the kettle the nutrients are released for the next generation. Those nutrients include amino acids' date=' which are a source of assimilable nitrogen, and vitamins such as niacin, thiamin, pantothenate, riboflavin, folic acid, pyridoxine, and biotin. Yeast also contains minerals such as potassium, iron, copper, zinc, phosphorous, magnesium, and calcium..[/quote']2). All these years I've been eating Nutri-Grain, I've actually been eating a box of dead yeast bricks! As a proposal to avoid the production of underwhelming & under-performing yeasts I reckon we should involve KFC in yeast product development. Hey, look what they've done with chickens! All kidding aside, that's some great info you've dug up there Christina. It's certainly confirmed a few suspicions (albeit slightly misguided & misunderstood ones) that I had back then. Cheers, Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnaman Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 All these years I've been eating Nutri-Grain' date=' I've actually been eating a box of dead yeast bricks! [img']pinched[/img] And a Sh!t load (technical term) of sugar. "a spoon full or 6 of sugar make the medicine go down in the most delightful way" Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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