I'm Disappointed

[Malter White]

My Coopers order that travelled more than Mike & Mal Leyland before it arrived contained European Lager, Australian Pale Ale and Innkeepers Daughter Sparkling Ale. I popped the plastic lids so I could refrigerate the yeast sachets. To my disappointment I noticed the Euro Lager no longer has a lager yeast with it but comes now with R3426 ale yeast, the same as the APA. The Innkeepers has R3555 yeast.
A little bemused I thought I'd check the Coopers Product Info section and surprise, surprise the yeast specifications are no longer in that section.
I know inflation is a world wide problem and Coopers increased their prices quite heavily to account for this last year but to also skimp on the yeast for a premium (in price) lager is disappointing. Combined with the change in the Product Info section I find this a bit underhanded and I feel somewhat duped.  

[Classic Brewing Co]

1 hour ago, Malter White said:

My Coopers order that travelled more than Mike & Mal Leyland before it arrived contained European Lager, Australian Pale Ale and Innkeepers Daughter Sparkling Ale. I popped the plastic lids so I could refrigerate the yeast sachets. To my disappointment I noticed the Euro Lager no longer has a lager yeast with it but comes now with R3426 ale yeast, the same as the APA. The Innkeepers has R3555 yeast.
A little bemused I thought I'd check the Coopers Product Info section and surprise, surprise the yeast specifications are no longer in that section.
I know inflation is a world wide problem and Coopers increased their prices quite heavily to account for this last year but to also skimp on the yeast for a premium (in price) lager is disappointing. Combined with the change in the Product Info section I find this a bit underhanded and I feel somewhat duped.  

Malter, I have a heap of yeast that has always been stored in the fridge, you are welcome to as many of these as you want.

I do use the odd one, but I often buy specific yeasts for different brews.

If you want them let me know & I will send them to you or better still come & have a beer 

[Malter White]

@Classic Brewing Co Thanks for the offer, Phil. I have quite a bit of yeast on hand. The reason for posting was mainly to voice my concern over the changing of product. It's a bit like shrinkflation, where the price stays the same but the size decreases but Coopers already had a hefty price increase. You'd think they could have kept the lager yeast as an inclusion.

Edited January 1, 2023 by Malter White

[Classic Brewing Co]

Just now, Malter White said:

@Classic Brewing Co Thanks for the offer, Phil. I have quite a bit of yeast on hand. The reason for posting was mainly to voice my concern over the changing of product. It's a bit like shrinkflation, where the price stays the same but the size decreases.

Yeah, like when Coles & Woolies downsize stuff like 1kg bag of Steakhouse Beer Battered Chips, my favourite when I don't make my own. They were $2.70 for 1kg for ages, next thing the bag was 750gm for $3.50, now I think even dearer, 

McCains bag now is 600gms & pushing $6.00.

Of course, too many other products to mention have suffered the same but when you consider wages & pensions don't increase that often either.

At least we can save money on our beer. 

[Shamus O'Sean]

4 hours ago, Malter White said:

My Coopers order that travelled more than Mike & Mal Leyland before it arrived contained European Lager, Australian Pale Ale and Innkeepers Daughter Sparkling Ale. I popped the plastic lids so I could refrigerate the yeast sachets. To my disappointment I noticed the Euro Lager no longer has a lager yeast with it but comes now with R3426 ale yeast, the same as the APA. The Innkeepers has R3555 yeast.
A little bemused I thought I'd check the Coopers Product Info section and surprise, surprise the yeast specifications are no longer in that section.
I know inflation is a world wide problem and Coopers increased their prices quite heavily to account for this last year but to also skimp on the yeast for a premium (in price) lager is disappointing. Combined with the change in the Product Info section I find this a bit underhanded and I feel somewhat duped.  

Please explain @Coopers DIY Beer Team.  And remember what happened to VB when they changed it to 4.6%.

[Malter White]

2 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

Please explain @Coopers DIY Beer Team.  And remember what happened to VB when they changed it to 4.6%.

Yes, Shamus. Changing recipes is fraught with commercial dangers. There are dozens of examples of products losing market share after changing recipes. Arnotts BBQ Shapes springs to mind.

[Tricky Micky]

Just noticed this also.

Now there are two different style labels for what seems like the same product - but that of course may signify a difference between these two products but I'm yet to discover what that could be.

The price is certainly different. 

Can anyone clear this up for me? The Goop at the Coopers online store for non members is marked as $24.00 per unit

The other mob are selling what is  described as the same product albeit with a different style label for $17.95.

Is it the same product or is the Coopers can a premium brand or some such?

If they are the same product seems a huge difference -  I guess it could just be older stock with an older style label and some retailer running it out.

 

 

 

[Shamus O'Sean]

1 hour ago, Mickep said:

Just noticed this also.

Now there are two different style labels for what seems like the same product - but that of course may signify a difference between these two products but I'm yet to discover what that could be.

The price is certainly different. 

Can anyone clear this up for me? The Goop at the Coopers online store for non members is marked as $24.00 per unit

The other mob are selling what is  described as the same product albeit with a different style label for $17.95.

Is it the same product or is the Coopers can a premium brand or some such?

If they are the same product seems a huge difference -  I guess it could just be older stock with an older style label and some retailer running it out.

 

 

 

AFAIK they are the same product.  Although, with the change in yeast for the European Lager, who knows if something may have changed with any of the other cans.

The bottom image with the black lid is the newer labelling.  Coopers changed it sometime this year.  

[ben 10]

3 hours ago, Mickep said:

Can anyone clear this up for me?

The other one is old stock.

 

On 1/1/2023 at 9:32 AM, Malter White said:

To my disappointment I noticed the Euro Lager no longer has a lager yeast with it but comes now with R3426 ale yeast

I would not be happy at all with that

[Uhtred Of Beddanburg]

On 1/1/2023 at 10:32 AM, Malter White said:

My Coopers order that travelled more than Mike & Mal Leyland before it arrived contained European Lager, Australian Pale Ale and Innkeepers Daughter Sparkling Ale. I popped the plastic lids so I could refrigerate the yeast sachets. To my disappointment I noticed the Euro Lager no longer has a lager yeast with it but comes now with R3426 ale yeast, the same as the APA. The Innkeepers has R3555 yeast.
A little bemused I thought I'd check the Coopers Product Info section and surprise, surprise the yeast specifications are no longer in that section.
I know inflation is a world wide problem and Coopers increased their prices quite heavily to account for this last year but to also skimp on the yeast for a premium (in price) lager is disappointing. Combined with the change in the Product Info section I find this a bit underhanded and I feel somewhat duped.  

The Euro Lager was my go to for my brewing kits, I even felt it superior over the Top range 86 days pilsner and GCL regardless of the price. I had also just got a whole lot of the new look tins to find the same when opening the top. When I emailed coopers and complained I got a reply from someone a lovely lady I think. It was because the half Lager half Ale yeast blend which is what it is. It was to make brewing easier and more enjoyable for people who do not have proper temp control. She then told me I could buy straight lager yeast from the online store in 15 gram packets. 

Although I'm sure the product had been selling fine and users happy with it before the change. I now only brew FWK and have a bunch of coopers tins I spent good money on sitting in the cupboard. They will eventually get used in maybe something like a Raspberry Lager but not the point and I feel you're pain. I used to brew a couple of brews with a specialty yeast and slurry why saving 2 or 3 packets of the Euro Lager yeast for a brew.

I understand companies sometimes have changes they feel they need but when it comes without warning that's the part that hurts. If I had found out before opening I would have returned it for a full refund.

[Malter White]

6 hours ago, Uhtred Of Beddanburg said:

The Euro Lager was my go to for my brewing kits, I even felt it superior over the Top range 86 days pilsner and GCL regardless of the price. I had also just got a whole lot of the new look tins to find the same when opening the top. When I emailed coopers and complained I got a reply from someone a lovely lady I think. It was because the half Lager half Ale yeast blend which is what it is. It was to make brewing easier and more enjoyable for people who do not have proper temp control. She then told me I could buy straight lager yeast from the online store in 15 gram packets. 

Although I'm sure the product had been selling fine and users happy with it before the change. I now only brew FWK and have a bunch of coopers tins I spent good money on sitting in the cupboard. They will eventually get used in maybe something like a Raspberry Lager but not the point and I feel you're pain. I used to brew a couple of brews with a specialty yeast and slurry why saving 2 or 3 packets of the Euro Lager yeast for a brew.

I understand companies sometimes have changes they feel they need but when it comes without warning that's the part that hurts. If I had found out before opening I would have returned it for a full refund.

The email reply sounds like corporate spin to me, which is also worrying. It lacks integrity.

We all know businesses need to make money, why not just tell the truth and say, "It's a cost cutting move because lager yeast is dearer."  If Coopers expect us to believe the "brewers without temp control" story, then what's the explanation for removing the yeast specifications from the Product Info section? By removing that information it affects those that do have temperature control because they will be under pitching lager yeast if the ale yeast in the blend doesn't take off at the lower temps.

Here's the yeast product info that used to be relevant for anyone interested:

 

 

Edited January 2, 2023 by Malter White

[Shamus O'Sean]

7 hours ago, Uhtred Of Beddanburg said:

It was to make brewing easier and more enjoyable for people who do not have proper temp control.

Interesting.  I am not sure how critical temperature control is to make a nice beer from the European Lager.  I have a soft spot for this kit.  It was the second brew I ever did.  I brewed it in March 2017.  No temperature control at all, not even a wet towel and a fan.  I did lager it to a certain degree.  It was left to condition in the top of the kitchen cupboard for 3 months between April and July.  I tried a bottle each month of the conditioning duration and they were all very good.  I am not sure that it actually got better with age, but it was great to start with.  So, yes, I am sceptical about that reasoning.

[Classic Brewing Co]

13 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

Interesting.  I am not sure how critical temperature control is to make a nice beer from the European Lager.  I have a soft spot for this kit.  It was the second brew I ever did.  I brewed it in March 2017.  No temperature control at all, not even a wet towel and a fan.  I did lager it to a certain degree.  It was left to condition in the top of the kitchen cupboard for 3 months between April and July.  I tried a bottle each month of the conditioning duration and they were all very good.  I am not sure that it actually got better with age, but it was great to start with.  So, yes, I am sceptical about that reasoning.

I brewed quite a few of those at ambient temps & never had a problem, it was never my favourite but went down well & enjoyed by all that tasted it.

I wouldn't have bothered to age it too much as in those days I didn't have the amount of FV's I have today, it's nice to have 3-4 brews going at once, makes it a lot easier to put a few away.

[Uhtred Of Beddanburg]

@Malter White yes you are correct a standard reply they would have been told to use when someone complained. They would have been trained and ready for it well in advance. This is really what annoyed me.

@Shamus O'Sean you are correct I even pointed out that a steam beer would still have more of a Lager feel. Closer to what they were saying the product was compared to adding half ale yeast.

Also most people brewed the OS Lager to start off with and if done research and found out was an Ale the Euro Lager was usually the next step. I didn't get a reply after that. 

If not a fruity beer I may use remaining tins as a kind of pale ale brew with heaps of hops brewed as an ale. I may even use the half/half yeast if I hop it up a bit. 

I'm sure coopers know they would get push back from long time brewers but probably crunched numbers knowing the newer brewer wouldn't know the difference.

As long as we are on the subject it was actually this change that pushed me into FWK through research. Before this I thought the box had all the grain and everything in it for me to come home and brew it.

I had always been told about the cubes and knew what they were but was happy doing what I was with tins for the size to store etc. 

I love coopers commercial and buy it all the time but yes having to buy a specialty Lager yeast every brew compared to saving a few for the next lot pushed me off the tins. I had just filled up a huge basket at big w during a sale to discover the change.

Edited January 3, 2023 by Uhtred Of Beddanburg

[Shamus O'Sean]

6 hours ago, Uhtred Of Beddanburg said:

I may even use the half/half yeast if I hop it up a bit. 

There is nothing wrong with the hybrid yeast.  It goes fine in the Australian Pale Ale and the Cerveza.  It's also in all of the Mr Beer kits. 

The European Lager extract will be fine to use in another brew of some sort.  With a can of Wheat Extract and a Wheat Yeast for a Wheat Beer or with a Philly Sour for a Berliner Weisse.  Or brew with the hybrid yeast for a Summer Ale.

However, the point is, when you buy the European Lager you are expecting to be able to brew one.  And you pay a premium for the European Lager over the OS Lager or OS Draught because they only have an Ale Yeast.

[Uhtred Of Beddanburg]

52 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

There is nothing wrong with the hybrid yeast.  It goes fine in the Australian Pale Ale and the Cerveza.  It's also in all of the Mr Beer kits. 

The European Lager extract will be fine to use in another brew of some sort.  With a can of Wheat Extract and a Wheat Yeast for a Wheat Beer or with a Philly Sour for a Berliner Weisse.  Or brew with the hybrid yeast for a Summer Ale.

However, the point is, when you buy the European Lager you are expecting to be able to brew one.  And you pay a premium for the European Lager over the OS Lager or OS Draught because they only have an Ale Yeast.

Exactly why I was disappointed not that I can't use the tin at all now. More that I can't use it for the purpose I bought it, making a true Lager. As Yeast seems to be running out of stock in shops now I will be using the true Lager strains for my FWK Lagers. I will still also be buying the APA tins of coopers for my Hoppy Pale Ales when I have No FWK on hand. But more than anything it's the principal of doing it without telling anyone and is now a product I used heaps that will not again.

[Malter White]

8 hours ago, Uhtred Of Beddanburg said:

But more than anything it's the principal of doing it without telling anyone and is now a product I used heaps that will not again.

This is my thinking too.

If I want a lager with ale yeast I'll get the Original Series Lager.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Shamus O'Sean]

8 hours ago, Uhtred Of Beddanburg said:

Exactly why I was disappointed not that I can't use the tin at all now. More that I can't use it for the purpose I bought it, making a true Lager. As Yeast seems to be running out of stock in shops now I will be using the true Lager strains for my FWK Lagers. I will still also be buying the APA tins of coopers for my Hoppy Pale Ales when I have No FWK on hand. But more than anything it's the principal of doing it without telling anyone and is now a product I used heaps that will not again.

That's a really great point you make.  The key point of difference between the European Lager kit and say the APA and Mexican Cerveza and even the Canadian Blonde was that the European Lager kit came with a Lager yeast.  It was the reason to buy that kit instead of any of the other three.  Now that the European Lager has the same yeast as the APA and the Cerveza, why would you buy a can of European Lager.  Maybe Coopers want a reason to kill off that line.  Or are they trying to push us toward the even more expensive Thomas Coopers 86 Days Pilsner or the TC Golden Crown Lager.  Gee, I wonder if they have changed those kits to a hybrid yeast too? 

[Red Chester]

13 hours ago, Uhtred Of Beddanburg said:

But more than anything it's the principal of doing it without telling anyone and is now a product I used heaps that will not again.

Agree completely! TBH, it's the members of this community that keep me coming back to read the discussions , not anything the owners of the forum do (or don't do, as is the case) .

Edited January 4, 2023 by Red Chester

[Uhtred Of Beddanburg]

@Malter White @Shamus O'Sean @Red Chester

I would also wonder about the other tins now they have removed the information completely as malter pointed out. I tried looking for it everywhere and could not find it.

Yet they still leave up the old invalid yeast details in the forum post? Unless they are just modifying it before adding it again and it all ends up being hybrid or ale yeast?

 

 

[Classic Brewing Co]

16 minutes ago, Uhtred Of Beddanburg said:

@Malter White @Shamus O'Sean @Red Chester

I would also wonder about the other tins now they have removed the information completely as malter pointed out. I tried looking for it everywhere and could not find it.

Yet they still leave up the old invalid yeast details in the forum post? Unless they are just modifying it before adding it again and it all ends up being hybrid or ale yeast?

 

 

There has to be a genuine reason for this, I am sure Coopers Admin can shed some light on this.

[Malter White]

10 hours ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

 Thomas Coopers 86 Days Pilsner or the TC Golden Crown Lager.  Gee, I wonder if they have changed those kits to a hybrid yeast too? 

The Innkeeper Daughter Sparkling yeast was still the same - R3555. However that doesn't mean the two you mention haven't changed.

[Coopers DIY Beer Team]

On 1/1/2023 at 10:02 AM, Malter White said:

To my disappointment I noticed the Euro Lager no longer has a lager yeast with it but comes now with R3426 ale yeast, the same as the APA.

 

On 1/1/2023 at 10:02 AM, Malter White said:

A little bemused I thought I'd check the Coopers Product Info section and surprise, surprise the yeast specifications are no longer in that section.
I know inflation is a world wide problem and Coopers increased their prices quite heavily to account for this last year but to also skimp on the yeast for a premium (in price) lager is disappointing.

The change to a BLEND of ale and lager yeast in the European Lager was made due to the fact that most brewers don't have fermentation temperature control and the results for many were less than palatable, resulting in them not purchasing this brew again. The cost of different strains is very similar across the board, so there’s no great benefit in changing a yeast purely to save money; that is to say, cost saving did not come into it.  The recent cost increases on the shelf have been driven by well documented factors affecting most of the world. For those who have temperature control, Coopers ale yeast (supplied in the Original Series and others) will ferment much like a lager yeast when pitched at 18C and drawn down to 16C over 24 hours; so you can still ferment European Lager with the yeast BLEND supplied and get the lager flavour profile you expect from this kit. At the end of the day, we want our DIY brewers to make the best beer possible and to keep coming back. These decisions have been made with that principle front of mind at all times. Cheers, Frank.

[Malter White]

6 hours ago, Coopers DIY Beer Team said:

 

The change to a BLEND of ale and lager yeast in the European Lager was made due to the fact that most brewers don't have fermentation temperature control and the results for many were less than palatable, resulting in them not purchasing this brew again. The cost of different strains is very similar across the board, so there’s no great benefit in changing a yeast purely to save money; that is to say, cost saving did not come into it.  The recent cost increases on the shelf have been driven by well documented factors affecting most of the world. For those who have temperature control, Coopers ale yeast (supplied in the Original Series and others) will ferment much like a lager yeast when pitched at 18C and drawn down to 16C over 24 hours; so you can still ferment European Lager with the yeast BLEND supplied and get the lager flavour profile you expect from this kit. At the end of the day, we want our DIY brewers to make the best beer possible and to keep coming back. These decisions have been made with that principle front of mind at all times. Cheers, Frank.

Thanks for the reply, Frank. It's appreciated.

However with the yeast change combined with the removal of the yeast specifications from the product info page I'm calling the response "corporate spin" because I'm too polite to say, "bullsh".

Keep coming back? There's already two brewers in this thread alone that probably won't be buying Euro Lager again. I appreciate we aren't the total market but it's anecdotal evidence of sales lost.

It's Coopers' business. They can do as they like. I'm just offering a little feedback.

Cheers, Malter. - (the artist formerly known as Muzz)

 

Edited January 6, 2023 by Malter White

[Uhtred Of Beddanburg]

@Malter White perfect response I was going to reply to coopers before but it is you're thread. I had previously already been through this with them so no point going on with it. 

I would have thought if coopers wanted more people to brew their product as it was intended to be. They would be putting  more effort into making it an important thing with different options for people without a fridge to brew it the way it should be. 

And at high temps a hybrid yeast will still make a beer not so great so the spin they try to put on it doesn't sit well. Yes if brewed at 16 degrees both yeasts will work but if in high 20s like coopers quote? not much different than making a steam ale with straight lager.

Edited January 6, 2023 by Uhtred Of Beddanburg