Partial mash lager recipe - feedback please

[Tone boy]

Ok brewskis. 
Im after your collective brains because I’ve thought about this too much and now my brain hurts. 
Im going to put down a lager - partial mash. Something like this....

1.2 kg gladfield Pilsner malt. 

100g Carapils. 

Black rock lager tin (20 ibu) or Pilsner blonde (16 ibu) - leaning towards the lager

Extra LDME (200g) and dex (300g) to get to about 4.6% ABV  

25g Hersbrucker or saaz hops (late - maybe 5 min boil then steep for 20 minutes before cooling in ice bath?)

W34/70 or S189 yeast plus coopers European lager yeast. Ferment at 13 degrees C.

I mini mash the grains for 60 minutes then boil for 30 mins. 

Does anyone see any improvements here? All comments and suggestions welcome. Thanks beer legends!

[jamiek86]

I've been thinking about doing something similar for my next lager/pilsner but wasn't sure on how much alcohol usually comes from the grains. do you possibly think you could up the pilsner malt to 2kg if big enough pot and go 500 grams ldm and no dextrose or a smaller amount like 150 grams?

[Tone boy]

Hey @jamiek86 Jamie. The way I think it works out is 1 kg of grain is roughly equivalent to 600g LDME or 800g liquid malt. So if you used 2 kg and a kit can I think you would have enough fermentables for a 23 litre batch. 
My pot isn’t big enough for 2kg grain once you add your mash water plus the sparge water. So I’m limited to about 1.3 kg grain. 

[jamiek86]

so the sparging is getting those extra sugars out of grain? must be why when I.done partial a few times didn't notice much difference in abv just pulled bag out and gave light squeeze 

[Tone boy]

1 hour ago, jamiek86 said:

so the sparging is getting those extra sugars out of grain? must be why when I.done partial a few times didn't notice much difference in abv just pulled bag out and gave light squeeze 

Yep that’s right Jamie. It’s rinsing the grains to get all the sugar out as I understand it. I usually rinse with warm water, then give a good squeeze too. 
Im only learning about it so not an expert. Which is why I am on here looking for advice on the recipe 

[jamiek86]

6 minutes ago, Tone boy said:

Yep that’s right Jamie. It’s rinsing the grains to get all the sugar out as I understand it. I usually rinse with warm water, then give a good squeeze too. 
Im only learning about it so not an expert. Which is why I am on here looking for advice on the recipe 

probably wait for someone else for advice then I haven't done a partial lager yet but its in my dreams 

[ChristinaS1]

Looks good @Tone boy.

Personally I have never used Pilsner malt because of they say it is prone to DMS and needs a 60 minute boil, which I don't want to bother with. I like a combo of Vienna and Ale malt, for more flavour; I boil for 20-25 minutes.

Cheers,

Christina.

[Tone boy]

12 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

Looks good @Tone boy.

Personally I have never used Pilsner malt because of they say it is prone to DMS and needs a 60 minute boil, which I don't want to bother with. I like a combo of Vienna and Ale malt, for more flavour; I boil for 20-25 minutes.

Cheers,

Christina.

Haha Just been reading all about DMS. My goodness I have so much to learn. Didn’t even know that was a thing!

Anyway I’ve already purchased a 5kg bag of the stuff so it looks like I’ll be boiling it like a madman! And I read a higher fermentation temp helps too, so might aim for 14 rather than 12 degrees. Should be ok in a partial mash as only making up about 1/4 of the fermentables

Thanks for the heads up @ChristinaS1

[Pickles Jones]

13 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

Looks good @Tone boy.

Personally I have never used Pilsner malt because of they say it is prone to DMS and needs a 60 minute boil, which I don't want to bother with. I like a combo of Vienna and Ale malt, for more flavour; I boil for 20-25 minutes.

Cheers,

Christina.

Christina, what is DMS

[Tone boy]

30 minutes ago, Pickles Jones said:

Christina, what is DMS

Hey @Pickles Jones PJ. 
Christina is probably asleep as she’s on the other side of the planet. 
Its dimethyl sulfide. Apparently in higher concentration in pale malt and Pilsner malt. It’s supposed to impart a flavor close to corn, or cooked vegetables. 
you can rid of it by boiling without a lid on - the longer the better.  Warmer fermentation helps. Open fermentation helps too. Prolonged hop stands above 60 degrees C do not help. 
That was today’s learning for me - what I could glean from the interwebs anyway

Cheers

[jamiek86]

assuming that's only for partial as topic states because in all grain you would boil for at least 60 for the hop bitterness. assuming carapils would be different well I hope so I'm going to purchase some of this soon.

[ChristinaS1]

7 hours ago, Tone boy said:

Should be ok in a partial mash as only making up about 1/4 of the fermentables

I agree. That is one of the nice things about partial mashing. Even if you don't do everything perfectly, according to the rules, your beer will still turn out because 3/4 of the wort has been made "properly." Takes the pressure off.

I know you have 5kg of Pilsner malt on hand, but once it is used up remember that if your base kit is a Pilsner kit, using 1/4 ale malt won't ruin it.

If you are a purist and want to use all Pilsner malt, it may be available at your LHBS in DME form, which is another way to avoid the 60-90 minute boil. Briess makes a "Pilsner light" DME.

Cheers,

Christina.

Edited February 11, 2021 by ChristinaS1

[ChristinaS1]

On 2/9/2021 at 3:47 AM, jamiek86 said:

so the sparging is getting those extra sugars out of grain? must be why when I.done partial a few times didn't notice much difference in abv just pulled bag out and gave light squeeze 

That does not make sense. What is your mash temp? The wort will be more fermentable at the lower end of the mash range (65-66C), and less fermentable at the upper end (69-70C). I usually aim for in the middle (67C). How are you keeping your mash at your target temp? pH is also important. Do you know if your water is extra soft or extra hard, or is it just kind of average? If your water is kind of average you don't need to worry about pH. If it is really hard you might need to mix it half and half with soft water, such rain water, distilled water, or RO water....Rainwater is great for pilsners. Also what is your mash thickness?

Whether you need to rinse or not depends on how thick the mash is. My vessel is not that big so I can only use a 1:3 ratio (1kg grain to 3L water) which is on the thicker side; and I use another 3L of water to sparge. A lot of brew in a bag brewers use a 1:7 ratio, which is considered "thin"; then you don't need to sparge. But keep in mind that with a thick mash a 60 minute mash time is sufficient (some people only mash for 30 minutes), but if you are using a thin mash you need to mash for 90 minutes, as the enzymes are more dilute and have to travel further.

Cheers,

Christina.

Edited February 11, 2021 by ChristinaS1

[jamiek86]

@ChristinaS1 the last partial I done was years ago so cant remember the detailsdetails just remember was a tin of coopers something and 2.5kg of some sort ale malt at 65 degrees for 60 min and wasn't what I expected it to come out at. never tested ph in anything but the fish tank. I live on Murray River so water comes from there and has chlorine and fluoride added to some extent not sure on any more than that

[ChristinaS1]

@jamiek86 As I understand it, river water is generally soft (which is good for brewing), but it can change a lot depending on rainfall. During drought is can get harder, and during heavy rains, softer. Where are you at? Maybe someone in your area can give you an idea. 

If you are on a town system you might be able to get a report from your town's water treatment department. 

Cheers,

Christina.

Edited February 11, 2021 by ChristinaS1

[ozdevil]

58 minutes ago, jamiek86 said:

@ChristinaS1 the last partial I done was years ago so cant remember the detailsdetails just remember was a tin of coopers something and 2.5kg of some sort ale malt at 65 degrees for 60 min and wasn't what I expected it to come out at. never tested ph in anything but the fish tank. I live on Murray River so water comes from there and has chlorine and fluoride added to some extent not sure on any more than that

use a camden tablet     this will take out the chloride chloromine in your brews


don't get to hung up on the ph levels as ya not using much grain in partials or extract brewing to worry about to much , and if you don't know how to get the ph levels to what we want in brewing  then its pointless even trying for ph levels

if you was all grain brewing and for comps and ya brewing to style  with all the water additions etc  then  ph makes a difference in my opinion.

now if heated ya water to 65 degrees and added the grain your not mashing in at that temp as the grain will cool the temp down 2-3 degrees so you would have been around 62-63 degrees

you basicly need ya strike water to be about 2-4 degrees hotter then your mash temp  due to temp of grain when adding

if i am looking at 67 degree mash in i look at my strike water to be at 70-71degrees   

i honestly think  partials are a waste of time in my opinion and feel for your effort there is not an overall difference to what ya tasting in extract..

i feel people from extract brewing should go to straight to biab    and thats where you will start noticing alot of difference

 

 

 

[ChristinaS1]

2 hours ago, ozdevil said:

use a camden tablet     this will take out the chloride chloromine in your brews

Camden tablet will take out chlorine, not chloramine. Only 1/4 tablet is needed to treat the water for an entire brew. I don't bother with it when partial mashing.

I don't measure pH. My tap water is moderately hard. I got a water report from my city and found out it best suited to brewing amber coloured brews. As long as I have some coloured malts in my grist I use straight tap water for the mash. If my recipe has zero coloured malts then I use RO water. 

@ozdevil It is true that all grain brewing will make a bigger difference, but not everyone can manage full volume boils. In such cases partials are very useful in expanding the kinds of malts you can use.  You are not limited to those that don't require mashing.

Cheers,

Christina.

Edited February 12, 2021 by ChristinaS1

[jamiek86]

@ozdevil there was no temperature drop i stood at the pot for most of the hour turning heat on and off as required and measured temp with long thermometer probe but was years ago now maby I just expected too much and it actually came out normal 

[iBooz2]

On 2/9/2021 at 8:16 PM, Tone boy said:

I usually rinse with warm water, then give a good squeeze too.

As I understand it, the best practice is definitely give the grain bag a rinse with hotter water than your mash, say 75 C water from your kettle but a good squeeze is generally a No No.  If you do give it a good squeeze then you may extract too much unwanted stuff from your spent grains / husks etc.  Better to allow it to drain properly and maybe just a light squeeze to assist but just don't go overboard and try and wring it out.

 

[ozdevil]

22 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

Camden tablet will take out chlorine, not chloramine. Only 1/4 tablet is needed to treat the water for an entire brew. I don't bother with it when partial mashing.

I don't measure pH. My tap water is moderately hard. I got a water report from my city and found out it best suited to brewing amber coloured brews. As long as I have some coloured malts in my grist I use straight tap water for the mash. If my recipe has zero coloured malts then I use RO water. 

@ozdevil It is true that all grain brewing will make a bigger difference, but not everyone can manage full volume boils. In such cases partials are very useful in expanding the kinds of malts you can use.  You are not limited to those that don't require mashing.

Cheers,

Christina.

i agree partials are a great , i have done a few partial mashs in my time.

i honestly feel  though these days partial mashing is coming to extinction due to small batch brewing

where many are doing biab   and brewing 5 litre batches  and this is a great way to learn about malts  as well as trying  different style of beers so that your not wasting beer if you dont like the beer ya made to 23 litres.

Just for an example for a 5litre A.G   which can be done just in a 20litre Pot (which most of us Brewers would already have)

5litre  Amber Ale
Grains

Pale Malt, Maris Otter             1.021 kg
Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L     120.1 g
Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L     60 g
Black (Patent) Malt                  48 g

Hops

Columbus (Tomahawk)     3.3 g     90 min     Boil     
Amarillo Gold                   6.8 g     30 min     Boil     
Crystal                              7.7 g     20 min     Boil     
Simcoe                             2.6 g     20 min     Boil     
Amarillo Gold                  10.1 g     7 days     Dry Hop

Yeast    

Dry English Ale (WLP007)     White Labs

Mash in @ 69°c   for 40 min

Small batch brewing  would be much benificial to  those wanting to go from extract to A.G..

They still can do extract brewing   but small batches like i just said will teach them of grains etc  and will make jumping into bigger batches easier...


Dont get me wrong  partial mashing  does help the extract brewer  learn as well and they do get the 23l or what level wort they brew to..

 

 

[ChristinaS1]

@ozdevil You make some very good points. As you say, small batch is good for learning about all grain brewing, if that is your goal. But small batches won't keep a pipeline full. At the rate I drink I would have to brew a 5L batch every 5 days. Good grief.

I think partial mashing is good for people who, like me, can't go all grain, but want more than what kits and bits can give them. Partial mash brewing won't go extinct as long as I am brewing. 

Cheers,

Christina.

 

Edited February 13, 2021 by ChristinaS1

[Journeyman]

On 2/12/2021 at 9:31 AM, ozdevil said:

honestly think  partials are a waste of time in my opinion and feel for your effort there is not an overall difference to what ya tasting in extract.

I've done quite a few partials but have recently been trying K&K brews - I think the plainer K&K are OK but lack the complexities you get with a mash. I'm going back to partials - I've found what I needed to know so I can start playing with grains again.  

I think there is a considerable difference with partials, even over using a kit and can of LME.

[ozdevil]

42 minutes ago, ChristinaS1 said:

@ozdevil You make some very good points. As you say, small batch is good for learning about all grain brewing, if that is your goal. But small batches won't keep a pipeline full. At the rate I drink I would have to brew a 5L batch every 5 days. Good grief.

I think partial mashing is good for people who, like me, can't go all grain, but want more than what kits and bits can give them. Partial mash brewing won't go extinct as long as I am brewing. 

Cheers,

Christina.

 

yes i am the same  to me  5l batches are not worth the hassle  unless i am trying to experiment with a new beer...

your exactly spot on and i dont disagree  ... partials do make a difference and will improve the extract brewers beer

5l batches some love to brew to this   scale   but when i get  thirst up  i can easily drink 5l in a sitting and not thinking  anything of it

 

[ozdevil]

41 minutes ago, Journeyman said:

I've done quite a few partials but have recently been trying K&K brews - I think the plainer K&K are OK but lack the complexities you get with a mash. I'm going back to partials - I've found what I needed to know so I can start playing with grains again.  

I think there is a considerable difference with partials, even over using a kit and can of LME.

yep  i agree  and its great to learn what a particular grain  does to brew