DMS in an uh-hopped mini-mash

[King Ruddager]

I'm planning an mini-mash brew soon, but instead of the usual practice of topping up a mini-mash with unhopped extract, I'm actually topping up a kit beer with un-hopped wort.

That means no need to boil anything for an hour, but was wondering whether I should anyway to drive off DMS?

Not a big deal either way because I would boil for 15 minutes anyway to kill any buggies that might try and ruin the party, so it just means an extra 45 minutes of sitting around drinking beer which ... well I can handle that.

[Journeyman]

1. Is a 'mini-mash' AKA 'partial mash'?

2. Kit beer with unhopped wort - will a 15 min boil of the kit extract increase the IBU's to balance the malt from the wort?

3. You 'usual practice' - wouldn't that require some boiling of hops to balance? Or is that assumed as normal?

 

[King Ruddager]

1. Yes

2. Kit is not being boiled

3. Usually I would do a full boil with hops and specialty malt. This time I'll only be mashing some base malt.

[Journeyman]

49 minutes ago, King Ruddager said:

3. Usually I would do a full boil with hops and specialty malt. This time I'll only be mashing some base malt.

So the only bittering would come from the kit? Wouldn't that make a rather malty beer? Is that what you are after?

[King Ruddager]

The kit will have plenty of bitterness.

What I'm basically making here is a "kit and kilo" brew, except I'm replacing the "kilo" with my own mash. The kit is doing the heavy lifting in terms of flavour and bitterness.

[Hairy]

Ale malt or pilsner malt?

If Pilsner malt then I would definitely boil for an hour.

Technically you should boil pilsner for 90 min and ale malt for 60 min to drive off DMS (or DMS precursors) but have I boiled pilsner malt for only 60 minutes a few times with no perceived DMS.

If you are using ale malt then I would give it a 30 min boil.

But it depends on how risk averse you are.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Hairy

[Journeyman]

41 minutes ago, Hairy said:

But it depends on how risk averse you are.

Is there any down side to boil ale malt for (say) 2 hours?

[Hairy]

6 minutes ago, Journeyman said:

Is there any down side to boil ale malt for (say) 2 hours?

You will just have less wort.

[Hairy]

2 hours ago, Hairy said:

You will just have less wort.

With a higher gravity.

[King Ruddager]

And darker colour 

[King Ruddager]

Actually, on those last two points, if you were to make up the volume (lost after the extra hour) again by adding water, would you expect the gravity and colour to then be the same as a 1 hour boil? I’m inclined to think yes for gravity, but no for colour. 

[Hairy]

28 minutes ago, King Ruddager said:

Actually, on those last two points, if you were to make up the volume (lost after the extra hour) again by adding water, would you expect the gravity and colour to then be the same as a 1 hour boil? I’m inclined to think yes for gravity, but no for colour. 

I think if you add Adelaide water then the wort becomes darker.

[ChristinaS1]

19 hours ago, King Ruddager said:

I'm planning an mini-mash brew soon, but instead of the usual practice of topping up a mini-mash with unhopped extract, I'm actually topping up a kit beer with un-hopped wort.

That means no need to boil anything for an hour, but was wondering whether I should anyway to drive off DMS?

I make partials all the time, using around 1.25kg and I have never noticed any DMS, but I never use Pilsner malt. I typically boil for 20-25 minutes. I put the on the lid at flameout, but have experimented with keeping it off until the temp drops to 70C, but I did not noticed a difference. Keeping the lid on is safer from an infection control perspective. Sometimes I leave the lid open just a crack. 

Long story short: I wouldn't worry about DMS. 

Cheers,

Christina.

[Journeyman]

11 hours ago, Hairy said:

I think if you add Adelaide water then the wort becomes darker.

OTOH, Adelaide water is bad enough it might solve any infection issues.

[King Ruddager]

@ChristinaS1, have you ever done what I'm describing, or do you mostly use un-hopped extract to make up the balance of whatever other recipe you've hand-designed?

[Journeyman]

35 minutes ago, King Ruddager said:

@ChristinaS1, have you ever done what I'm describing, or do you mostly use un-hopped extract to make up the balance of whatever other recipe you've hand-designed?

I forgot to respond to your original Q.

I do it quite often. A partial mash with a can, although mostly I also add some LDME.

I'm not sure if this also counts but on occasion I have added a hop tea before pitching as well.

Edited September 29, 2020 by Journeyman

[BlackSands]

2 hours ago, King Ruddager said:

... have you ever done what I'm describing, or do you mostly use un-hopped extract to make up the balance of whatever other recipe you've hand-designed?

I've brewed using this approach a number of times in the past in the past.   I think the last one was the Dark Ale can supplemented with fresh wort from 2kg of Gladfield Ale malt.  I think I also used some of their sour grapes malt (acidulated malt) just to help bring the mash pH down.   I boiled the wort for about 15 minutes I think.   AND, I've also done this with pilsner malt.  Personally I think DMS is generally a non-issue, even with short boils.

[ChristinaS1]

2 hours ago, King Ruddager said:

@ChristinaS1, have you ever done what I'm describing, or do you mostly use un-hopped extract to make up the balance of whatever other recipe you've hand-designed?

I always use one of the light coloured Coopers kits. Which one depends on what IBUs I am targeting. I probably use the APA kit about 75% of the time, but also the Mexican Cervesa kit, and occasionally the Lager or Blonde kits. 

At the end of the hop stand I add 1.5kg light LME to the kettle, and then the Coopers kit. This helps dissolve the extract and also cools the mini-mash wort. Then the lid go back on the kettle for the remainder of the cool down time.

Making beer this way I can get away with using a rather small kettle and can prepare everything indoors, on my kitchen stove. 

Cheers,

Christina.

Edited September 29, 2020 by ChristinaS1

[King Ruddager]

So mini-mash + kit + LME? How big a batch do you make?

[Journeyman]

20 minutes ago, ChristinaS1 said:

At the end of the hop stand I add 1.5kg light LME to the kettle, and then the Coopers kit. This helps dissolve the extract and also cools the mini-mash wort. Then the lid go back on the kettle for the remainder of the cool down time

Sounds a lot like my normal process. At the start I used to put the LDME and can in earlier in the boil but it makes for darker beers. Now it goes in after the heat is off.

 

5 minutes ago, King Ruddager said:

So mini-mash + kit + LME? How big a batch do you make

Depending on what grain amounts, mine are usually between 6 and 8 litres. With the can and LDME it gets me to roughly half the 20L volumes I make.

[BlackSands]

On 9/28/2020 at 1:49 PM, King Ruddager said:

Not a big deal either way because I would boil for 15 minutes anyway to kill any buggies that might try and ruin the party...

Because you're doing a 15min 'sterilising' boil anyway it's also a good opportunity to add some late (only) hop additions if desired.  

[King Ruddager]

I really want to do as close a comparison to a K&K as possible, so while tempting it'll just be straight ale malt

[ChristinaS1]

10 hours ago, King Ruddager said:

So mini-mash + kit + LME? How big a batch do you make?

That is right. Batch is 23L, about 5.3% ABV. I almost always add some finishing hops to the mini-mash wort during the 20 minute boil.

Edited September 29, 2020 by ChristinaS1

[ChristinaS1]

5 hours ago, King Ruddager said:

I really want to do as close a comparison to a K&K as possible, so while tempting it'll just be straight ale malt

Highly recommend using flavourful base malts, like Maris Otter, Vienna, and some Munich. Makes a kit taste more like all grain.

[Shamus O'Sean]

13 hours ago, King Ruddager said:

I really want to do as close a comparison to a K&K as possible, so while tempting it'll just be straight ale malt

Last year I did a mini-mash/partial using 2kg Pilsner Malt and 200g Carapils and added it to the Coopers Golden Crown Lager.  23L batch.  OG 1.045.  ABV 5.0% with bottle carbonation. 

Did a 70 minute boil for fear of DMS.  Added some Saaz at 10 minutes and at flameout.

I loved this beer.

Edited September 29, 2020 by Shamus O'Sean