Using Spreadsheet with mash

[Journeyman]

Is there a way to use IanH's SS with a partial mash? Maybe that section in centre bottom of the Main page?

I've now done 2 brews with grain, 1 with some light crystal which came in well under the expected OG; I still do not know why.

But now my latest brew, my 'Exbeeriment' one has also come in 6 points down AND the calc didn't have the brown sugar I added. When I add that in it's 12 points under the SS calc. 1.060 is healthy but the SS says 1.072.

The FV is looking healthy, abut a 3 cm Kraussen on it and I'm happy with how it smells - the sample tasted fine. But 2 in a row where the calc disagrees with measured is strange - I was extra careful this time to get everything right as it was my first mash.

I added the grains in on the Grains sheet as - 
Coopers Ale Malt    6    1.038
Golden Promise    3    1.038

Pretty sure about the GP as I found those figures - the Coopers Ale I couldn't find a 'Potential' figure so that's a bit of a guess based on:

"Cooper Premium Ale Malt carries sufficient enzymatic power to be used as a base malt with non-enzymatic specialty malts. All barley is sourced from Australian farms and is malted by Cooper’s Brewery Malting Moisture % Max 4.5 Extract % FG, Dry Basis Min 81.0 Colour EBC 4.5 - 7.0 Diastatic Power WK, Dry Basis Min 200 Total Protein %, Dry Basis 9.0 - 10.5 Soluble Protein %, Dry Basis 4.0 - 4.8 Kolbach Index %, Congress 42 - 48 Apparent Attenuation % 78 - 82 Free Amino Nitrogen mg/l Min 130 Friability % Min 80 Homogeneity % Min 95 Assortment % <2.2mm Max 1.0 Viscosity mPa.sec Max 1.58 Wort Beta Glucan mg/l Max 180"

I thought the 'Extract % FG' figure might be a clue to 'Potential' so I gave it the highest rating I could see in the Grains list. I couldn't find any figures I understand that might be 'Fermentability' and given nothing in the grains list has those figures I figure it isn't used for the calcs.

But then there's the issue of the Light Crystal steep - that IS in there. Might different light crystals have different figures? i.e. If my LC was Potential = 1.038 instead of 1.034 as shown in the grains list, would that mean a lower OG or would it just affect the SG AFTER fermenting?

I can be OK with just using the OG/FG as a comparative figure to get ABV and also not using the SS if I am partial mashing, but if possible, my mind would be quieter if I understood what is happening. Not a fan of waking at 3 in the AM with 'what ifs' and 'perhaps' rattling around in my head.  

Any help or advice would be very much appreciated. This is what went into the FV... 

Edited February 2, 2020 by Journeyman

[BlackSands]

I haven't used the SS for several years so can't comment on specifics,  but what I can tell you is the OG=1.072 & FG=1.016 correspond to the values a Beersmith partial-mash gives me for those same ingredients and quantities.    With your much lower than expected OG=1.060 though It's almost as if the mash didn't happen....    

Edited February 2, 2020 by BlackSands

[Journeyman]

17 minutes ago, BlackSands said:

I haven't used the SS for several years so can't comment on specifics,  but what I can tell you is the OG=1.072 & FG=1.016 correspond to the values a Beersmith partial-mash gives me for those same ingredients and quantities.    With your much lower than expected OG=1.060 though It's almost as if the mash didn't happen....    

OK... 

What I did was 600 g Ale malt, 300 g GP in a bag, boiled some rolled oats as per Palmer and then added them in to the bag. I did 30 mins at 55° then 50 mins at 68°. Should the grains be steeped or something prior to starting the mash?

Then ran a rolling boil for an hour adding the centennial for the last 15 mins.

Note - the mash liquid did not really change colour - maybe slightly darker. There was fine particles in the boil and a small amount of grey sludge at the end that meant I strained the wort through a hops bag. Looked a bit like oats (or porridge rather) but I wouldn't have eaten it.

Edited February 2, 2020 by Journeyman

[BlackSands]

Process looks fine to me.  I really don't know what else would account for for such a low OG - apart from completely forgetting to add some ingredient like the DME or whatever.  Odd.

[Journeyman]

10 minutes ago, BlackSands said:

Process looks fine to me.  I really don't know what else would account for for such a low OG - apart from completely forgetting to add some ingredient like the DME or whatever.  Odd.

So you don't need the hydrate the grain or anything like that - just into the mash container?

[King Ruddager]

Have you got IanH's BIAB spreadsheet? I use that for mini mashes.

[King Ruddager]

Oh hang on, you're using a kit. The BIAB one only has unhopped extracts. Nothing to see here. Move along ...

[BlackSands]

44 minutes ago, Journeyman said:

So you don't need the hydrate the grain or anything like that - just into the mash container?

Nope... it gets 'hydrated' when you throw it in your mash tun. 

An obvious (and possibly insulting question!)  -  I assume the grain was milled?  

[Smashed Crabs]

I used this one for Partials.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/calculator

Just work out how much IBU's / ABV etc you get on the SS your using then custom fill that in the fermentable section on the calculator.

[Journeyman]

1 hour ago, King Ruddager said:

Oh hang on, you're using a kit. The BIAB one only has unhopped extracts. Nothing to see here. Move along ...

It could be handy to have as I move further down the rabbit hole.  Link or is it on here somewhere?

[Journeyman]

48 minutes ago, BlackSands said:

Nope... it gets 'hydrated' when you throw it in your mash tun. 

An obvious (and possibly insulting question!)  -  I assume the grain was milled?  

Obvious is fine, but yes, it was milled.

[King Ruddager]

17 minutes ago, Journeyman said:

Link or is it on here somewhere?

You should be able to find it at AHB, like the other one

[Journeyman]

21 hours ago, King Ruddager said:

You should be able to find it at AHB, like the other one

Yep... Did. Haven't had a chance to look at it yet. Thanks for the heads up.

[BlackSands]

39 minutes ago, Journeyman said:

Yep... Did. Haven't had a chance to look at it yet. Thanks for the heads up.

Of course, using different software isn't actually going to solve your mystery because the calculated numbers given in the SS are already correct.  Out of curiosity I also verified this in the Brewers Fried online recipe builder, which you might want to check out also:   https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/calculator

 

[Journeyman]

1 hour ago, BlackSands said:

Of course, using different software isn't actually going to solve your mystery because the calculated numbers given in the SS are already correct.  Out of curiosity I also verified this in the Brewers Fried online recipe builder, which you might want to check out also:   https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/calculator

After years of a good head of hair I risk going bald scratching my head over this. 

I did have a thought during the night when I woke - the only difference I can think of from my previous processes is, I didn't boil the can. Previously I have actually boiled the can, malt and sugar prior to adding it to the FV. The last 2 brews I have just warmed the mix a bit to make it easier to mix it all - just lazy, I don't think warming it does much except thin the can contents a bit.

I cannot however, see how that could possibly make a difference as I don't know of anyone else who boils the can and dry malt contents. But all my other brews have been within a point or so of expected OG.

I played with the figures in the SS - if I reduce the Ale malt to 300 g I get smack on 1.060. No other changes get that close to the real measure. So I thought maybe the 1.038 figure I put into the grains page of the SS is incorrect? I played with that and it would have to be impossibly low to reduce the OG to 1.060.

So I thought... Does Rolled Oats actually HAVE a potential figure? I put 'malted oats' in the SS because it's the only oats there so I remove that and it's only reduced by 0.003 to 1.069.

So it looks like half my Ale Malt took a siesta instead of working in the mash.

 

[Smashed Crabs]

1 hour ago, Journeyman said:

I didn't boil the can. Previously I have actually boiled the can, malt and sugar prior to adding it to the FV.

Can I ask why you are boiling the can and for how long?

Also did you mill / crack the grain yourself or get it done at the LHBS?

[BlackSands]

2 hours ago, Journeyman said:

After years of a good head of hair I risk going bald scratching my head over this. 

I'm actually having related issues myself at the moment.  I've mentioned elsewhere that my efficiency figures have been all over the place with recent brews.  A figure you try to establish when brewing partials and AG is your efficiency.  This is a percentage figure that represents the amount of sugars you extract from the mash relative to a theoretical maximum.   This for me, with my gear and process is most often around 65% give or take a few percent.  And this of course directly impacts on your OG figures.  So when I design a recipe I adjust the quantities and numbers assuming an efficiency of around 65%.     Last brew was a miserably low 53% and the one prior to that was a crazy high 90%.  It makes absolutely no sense at all.  The only variable I don't control is the grain milling itself but I doubt that would account for little more than a few gravity points either way.   

Two things I'm going to check out are my digital thermometer.  I'm pretty sure it's right but it would be good to have a second opinion about it's readings around mash temperatures.  I've ordered another online.  The other thing I've been researching is mash stirring.  It's yet another debated topic with seemingly no hard evidence in support or otherwise. Some say there's no need, makes absolutely no difference, while other articles I've read suggest that it's almost essential to help minimise temperature gradients within the mash and the tendency for the mash to thicken near the bottom of the tun.  But again, I can't actually see this accounting for the kind of large OG disparities experienced.

Anyway, the good news is... I haven't gone bald!  

Edited February 4, 2020 by BlackSands

[Journeyman]

2 hours ago, Smashed Crabs said:

Can I ask why you are boiling the can and for how long?

Also did you mill / crack the grain yourself or get it done at the LHBS?

I think the 1st time it was concerns about sanitising - I didn't have the stellarsan yet & figured boiling the extract would help. And while I did that it made sense to add the BE3 etc. while doing it. Also gave me a chance to do hops boil - I didn't think about adding some malt or BE3 to some water and doing it that way.

The grain was cracked at beerbelly in Adelaide, while I waited. I still have some - is there something I should look for, like uncracked grain or something?

[Journeyman]

1 hour ago, BlackSands said:

The other thing I've been researching is mash stirring.  It's yet another debated topic with seemingly no hard evidence in support or otherwise. Some say there's no need, makes absolutely no difference, while other articles I've read suggest that it's almost essential to help minimise temperature gradients within the mash and the tendency for the mash to thicken near the bottom of the tun.  But again, I can't actually see this accounting for the kind of large OG disparities experienced.

I trust my sous vide temps, within 1° at least. Food wouldn't be cooked right if it was out by much.

The pot was so full I couldn't stir but a couple of times I kinda lifted the bag around a bit with a sanitised spoon, trying to make sure the liquid moved through the grain. I'm not sure how successful it was, so that's a possible cause for less extraction/conversion.

[Norris!]

When I did partial mashes I used 55% as efficiency. Sounds horrible but that was what I got on average. The issue could be many reasons, dough balls and did you stir enough when adding the grains? The crush of the grains and did you squeeze the bag or let it drain.

As a rough guide, I added .008-9 gravity points to my OG for every kg of base malt and completely ignored any specialty malt gravity point increases, just as a rough estimate before plugging it into beersmith.

As said by others, the process seemed alright, I don't suggest boiling the tins of pre bittered wort or any tin of wort in the can. It can cause carmelisation and off flavours. Just warm the tin up to get the hop out and add hot, hottest from the tap, water to get the rest out.

 

[Journeyman]

1 hour ago, Norris! said:

When I did partial mashes I used 55% as efficiency. Sounds horrible but that was what I got on average. The issue could be many reasons, dough balls and did you stir enough when adding the grains? The crush of the grains and did you squeeze the bag or let it drain.

As a rough guide, I added .008-9 gravity points to my OG for every kg of base malt and completely ignored any specialty malt gravity point increases, just as a rough estimate before plugging it into beersmith.

As said by others, the process seemed alright, I don't suggest boiling the tins of pre bittered wort or any tin of wort in the can. It can cause carmelisation and off flavours. Just warm the tin up to get the hop out and add hot, hottest from the tap, water to get the rest out.

 

Dough balls? The oats was kinda runny porridge, not sticky enough to form balls and the grain was already in the pot in water. It was a pretty solid bag of grains though and the pushing and lifting was pretty gentle so as not to spill liquid all over the bench. So stirring could be an issue.

Didn't really squeeze the bag - I read something about not doing that because (from memory) tannins and other unwanted possibilities. Once I had the liquid in the boil pot I poured a couple of litres water over it - from the RO tap, not heated.

The boil of extract wasn't in the tin, I poured it into RO water in the pot & added the LDME and any other ingredients as it came to boil. Boil was short except for my first hops boil of 15 mins. (not the last 2 brews, the one before)

[BlackSands]

8 hours ago, Journeyman said:

It was a pretty solid bag of grains though and the pushing and lifting was pretty gentle so as not to spill liquid all over the bench. So stirring could be an issue.

Didn't really squeeze the bag - I read something about not doing that because (from memory) tannins and other unwanted possibilities. Once I had the liquid in the boil pot I poured a couple of litres water over it - from the RO tap, not heated.

The boil of extract wasn't in the tin, I poured it into RO water in the pot & added the LDME and any other ingredients as it came to boil. Boil was short except for my first hops boil of 15 mins. (not the last 2 brews, the one before)

I've been using a 3:1 water:grain ratio.  So in my case I'm mashing 3kg of grain in around 9 litres of water.   It's said that efficiency can suffer if the porridge is too thick.   As for sparging I heat up a suitable amount of water, usually another 9 litres, to 76ºC in a separate pot.   

[Marty_G]

16 hours ago, Journeyman said:

The pot was so full I couldn't stir but a couple of times I kinda lifted the bag around a bit with a sanitised spoon, trying to make sure the liquid moved through the grain. I'm not sure how successful it was, so that's a possible cause for less extraction/conversion.

That could be the problem, as mentioned by Blacksands the water to grain ratio may not be sufficant, you may need a bigger pot. BigW have large stainless pots 19L for $20.00.   It is possible you maybe leaving some of those SG points in the mash as you are not using enough water to flush them out.   Also when doing grain there is not as big an emphasis on things being sanitised as once the mash is done it is boiled for the bittiering hop additions.  Also is the hop additions call for a 30 minute boil that is how long it is boiled for. There is no need to boil for 60 minutes then add the hop 30 minutes later.  If you want to boil for 60 minutes just add less hops and add when the rolling boil starts to get the desired IBU.  Hope that makes sense.   

 

https://www.bigw.com.au/home/kitchen/cookware/pots-pans/c/6517102103/

[Norris!]

11 hours ago, Journeyman said:

Dough balls? The oats was kinda runny porridge, not sticky enough to form balls and the grain was already in the pot in water. It was a pretty solid bag of grains though and the pushing and lifting was pretty gentle so as not to spill liquid all over the bench. So stirring could be an issue.

Didn't really squeeze the bag - I read something about not doing that because (from memory) tannins

Dough balls from the grains, not the porridge. You have to ensure all the grains are wet or they won't extract the sugar.

You can squeeze the bag. Tannins are not that big an issue, but depends on the grain bill.

Good luck with the brew

[Journeyman]

@MartyG1525230263 - In previous brews the boil was short. This one was (I thought) as needed to give time for the malt conversion to sugars to happen. (just to clarify)

Just took a read of the OG sample (sitting on the bench) and it's close to 1.010 already. (Started 2/2/20) So I think, being well below the expected FG from the SS, that points to the lack of water-grain ratio as cause... right? I started below and finish below the expected means less convertibles in the wort?

Time for BigW visit once I get back from Melb next week.

Edited February 4, 2020 by Journeyman