Mark D Pirate Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 There is a difference between hot break and cold break Hot break forms at the top of kettle as you bring it to the boil , foamy scummy looking stuff that loves to boil over if you're not careful and ruin your stove . Cold break occurs when you chill the wort , many of us use irish moss / whirlfoc to help these proteins clump together at the end of boil , a little bit in FV won't hurt much but really try to keep the bulk of it out There was a half arsed experiment run about the effect of kettle trub Vs clarity but my own experience has differed so now i brew clean and use polyclar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 I don't use a siphon, I have a 3 piece ball valve on my urn that a 12.7mm ID hose is connected to, which goes into the bottom of the cube. I only open the valve about 1/3 of the way, so that there is as little disturbance of the trub as possible while transferring. The lid sits slightly above the urn on the hop spider "legs" while the wort stands after flameout, and I only take it off when the wort level drops to near empty, so I can see when the hot break starts to move towards the outlet. As soon as the outlet area is completely covered with this crap, the transfer is stopped, so I guess a teeny tiny bit gets in the cube but nothing to be concerned about. Most of that foamy crap that forms on top of the wort as it comes to the boil apparently isn't hot break at all. Some of it is, but a lot isn't. I can't remember what it was that it is but yeah, anyway. The hot break is all the proteins and whathaveyou that are floating around in the wort. At the end of the boil, if the wort is left to sit kettle/pot/urn whatever for a short time (say 15-20 minutes), the hot break settles out in the bottom and becomes what we call kettle trub. At this point the wort is still sitting in the low 90sC so there's no cold break formed yet. The Irish moss, whirlfloc etc. finings are actually used to encourage this hot break crap to clump together and drop out of solution. Cold break forms as the wort is cooled, whether it be quickly chilled or left in a cube to slowly chill. I always transfer practically all clear wort to my cubes as mentioned above. After the wort cools down there is a lot more trub in there than was transferred (if any) so I can only figure this is cold break. This stuff isn't really a problem in the fermenter like hot break is, so I do allow a fair bit in. The only real problem with it is if there's too much and it gets up near the tap level, but so far it's always been well below it. I remember reading that experiment, and that was before I knew why hot break should be left behind. Now that I know why, I personally think they are idiots throwing all that crap into their fermenters and almost encouraging the practice. But, at the same time I'm not the one who has to drink potentially shitty beer because of blatantly lazy and bad brewing practice . Clear wort doesn't necessarily mean clear beer, but that's not the point. Hot break has the potential to cause premature staling among other problems, so to me it's rather silly to ferment on it. Cheers Kelsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corksniffer Posted January 6, 2017 Author Share Posted January 6, 2017 That cold break theory would explain why my hydro tube fell clear and left a little mess at the bottom Think I'm going to get a big outdoor burner today too. The stove was not only buckling under weight but didn't go to a nice boil without the lid on. The hot break was rolling around underneath that awesome still white film on the top though so still ok. I'm more worried about the weight and mess and steam/evap inside. There's a good 3 burn single one which is 32,000 IBU's for about $90 at Ray's outdoor who I'm hoping will also have the cubes. I notice the hops have already really stained the clear transfer hose and bag! Guess this is fine though long as they're clean. I'm a tadd worried that the hose will again impart flavouring. . Bloody well hope not Incredible how fast wild yeasts get into a wort. Sample on my kitchen bench is fermenting already without a pitch.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 It could be cold break in the hydro tube, it could also just be the hot break settling out. It's probably mostly the latter really. Good example of what happens in the brew pot after flameout too, and why it should be left to sit for ~20 minutes before transferring. You should never boil wort with the lid on. The steam needs to be allowed to escape as it takes volatile compounds with it that if left in the wort can negatively impact the flavour of the beer. It also allows a decent boil off rate to concentrate the SG and malt flavours more. Yes, you will get staining of the hose and bag from the wort. My transfer hose is quite browned, as is my grain bag. The hop sock/spider thing is rather a dark brown color now after 4 and a bit years of use It doesn't affect anything though, it is just aesthetic. I've had wild yeasts do that too, at one point I harvested it and fermented a couple of litres of leftovers from a batch with it. Didn't turn out anywhere near as nice as the rest of the batch that was fermented with the proper yeast though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joolbag Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Corksniffer, I got the Gasmate 3 ring burner from Bunnings, about $80. Probably same you can source from Ray's Outdoors. It has plenty enough juice to get a big ass pot on the boil. I also use it for outdoor cooking on a wok, and for lighting charcoal for the bbq/smoker. Seemed to chew through a lot of gas on my first BIAB. But I didn't have the vents set up right so it wasn't burning clean. All good now, will do another BIAB brew in a couple months time and see how much of the gas bottle is left over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corksniffer Posted January 6, 2017 Author Share Posted January 6, 2017 Yes, I've just checked the fermenter and there's a bunch of gunk (probably the hot break.. as K mentioned) at the bottom. Damn! I pitched this morning at 6am, yeast had been rehydrating since yesterday afternoon so I threw in a little sugar to kick them off after learning it would take the night to cool wort but no real signs of vigirous fermentation yet. Doing 15 degrees because I want it to ferment out a little faster cause I'm eager to try them(!) And it couldn't be great having that trub in FV so figure a slightly faster ferment might be better in this instance. There's about 3cm worth of non compacted trub sitting there Gets you thinking about the wild yeasts. Goes to show that they really don't need long to hop into your brew at all.. it'd be hard to actually keep them out 100% really so probably explains why every brew is a little different. Got a full-blown active fermentation going on not even 24hrs after sitting it on the bench and nothing inside FV. But that's a good thing, otherwise they'd be in there too! that's one good thing about AG, it's too hot for them to survive that potential window of opportunity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 By the morning it was probably a combination of hot and cold break. It doesn't sound like you got much hot break in there so I suspect it's mostly cold break. Not a good idea to re-hydrate yeast overnight although in this instance it can be forgiven. In future though, about 20 minutes is all it needs. The speed of the fermentation doesn't make any difference to the potential bad effects of fermenting on hot break, unfortunately. However, as I said it doesn't sound like much got in there so you've probably got nothing to worry about anyway. As for wild yeasts, that's where the cubes have an advantage. You can put the wort into them around 90 degrees and seal them up so the wild yeasts have no chance at all. Letting it slowly cool inside a fermenter is a bit more risky, although when you're pitching it the next morning it's not so bad. I use that method with my yeast starters. The wort is boiled in the flask and then just left on the stove with its foil covering to cool down overnight, before being pitched with yeast. In winter I boil them on my shift break and pitch at night, because they cool down quicker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corksniffer Posted January 6, 2017 Author Share Posted January 6, 2017 Excellent trub experiment here http://brulosophy.com/2014/06/02/the-great-trub-exbeeriment-results-are-in/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corksniffer Posted January 6, 2017 Author Share Posted January 6, 2017 Thanks Kels'! I'll turn the fridge down. Good to hear I did ok with the hot break. I was wondering how the F it made it through my bag actually! Saving the cube shopping for the weekend cause I had a last minute job come in and now I'm under the pump again Yes, I was nervous last night about yeast sitting there all night with only glad wrap between it and the nasties! To top it off, I had the wort cooling in the fridge with no airlock on!!.. maaan what a noob mistake. I really hope there's nothing bad in there that will take hold. I suddenly realized at about 10pm before sterilising a lock and installing. It had cooled to about 40 degrees by that point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 That experiment is the one referred to a few posts back in the thread. I find it a rather redundant one though, because they don't give the beer anywhere near enough time to develop the problems that fermenting on hot break can potentially cause. Aside from that, it's terrible brewing practice and there are much better ways to achieve a clear beer in the glass than potentially ruining it like that. One problem I have with Brulosophy is the implied advocating of shitty brewing practices that newbies like yourself wouldn't know were bad or not. You'd be surprised at the hot break being able to get through the bag. I know it looks lumpy and solid but it's actually not, so some will sneak through. I have a plan to make a short cylinder to sit in the urn after flameout. This cylinder will sit just in front of the tap outlet like a second urn wall, with the intention being that most of the hot break settles inside the cylinder and kept separated from the tap outlet by the cylinder. One day I'll get around to it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corksniffer Posted January 6, 2017 Author Share Posted January 6, 2017 I almost mentioned, is this the one you were talking about? But been reading so much lately I couldn't quite remember if it were here or some other thread you were talking about it. I've been told by Little Creatures that any vegetal or protein type matter is no good too so they also recommend keeping it out fwiw. Well my wild yeast hydro sample brew is going off! Funny thing is, it smells just like some weird breakfast cereal I had not long ago called something 'ancient grains' between that and a hefe again. Maybe we have great hefe yeasts in the house, who knows. Ha. I think the cereal smell is just the 'graininess' of real, well grain I suppose. It's made from grain, probably gonna smell like grain too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Yeah, well they would, because currently that is the consensus among professional brewers and brewing scientists and there wouldn't be a commercial brewery in the world that is fermenting on hot break. They would be doing everything they can to ensure it doesn't end up in the fermenting tanks. Just because we are brewing at home on much smaller scales doesn't change the chemical reactions that take place... even though some like to think it does. Whether it improves clarity or not can't be decided by a single garage experiment anyway, but the biggest problem with throwing hot break into the fermenter is that it has the potential to cause premature staling of the beer. I imagine it takes longer than the 2 or 3 weeks that these clowns* waited before doing the taste testing, though, hence why the whole thing was essentially a pointless exercise. Some proteins are beneficial, for head formation and retention etc. but these usually aren't in the hot break. You might get lucky with the wild yeast but if you do plan to try it in a proper beer I probably wouldn't do a whole batch straight away.. just do a couple of bottles worth of leftovers or something to see how it goes. Obviously it likes fermenting at ambient temps, I guess the unknown is how low it could go. *I call them clowns because I've read other experiments since that one and often see lines like "...made sure I added the right amount of kettle trub to the carboy". Obviously, the right amount is none, but that's not what they're doing, otherwise they wouldn't even mention it. It's one thing to do a one off experiment with this stuff, even it was largely a waste of time taste wise, but to continue on doing bad brewing practice and effectively encouraging others to follow suit is not very useful to the homebrew community, to be quite honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corksniffer Posted January 7, 2017 Author Share Posted January 7, 2017 Had the 3-ring burner in the hand ready to go until I saw this! https://www.snowys.com.au/mega-jet-outdoor-power-cooker boils 1litre per-minute 104,000 BTU it's the same type I've seen a few other YouTube brewers using and wondered where you get them. There you go. Gonna be excellent to have that sort of power, which will cut alot of time too. They only had light duty cubes for water though, it wouldn't handle heat so I'll keep looking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 All cubes are designed for water. Look underneath them, if they have a triangle with a 2 in it, they're HDPE and good for hot wort too. You don't want something that boils off a litre a minute for brewing. You only want to be boiling off about 3L per hour or thereabouts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corksniffer Posted January 7, 2017 Author Share Posted January 7, 2017 It's capable of bringing 1 litre of water to the boil per minute, not boils off 1p/-m Cool, thanks for the info, I'll go back and check next time I'm out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corksniffer Posted January 7, 2017 Author Share Posted January 7, 2017 Just popped the top off one of my experimental pilsner malt beers from the 100g sachet I did a few weeks ago. Remembering I assumed the weight was 300-400gms (what a noob!) It's a tadd undrinkable because there's very little body to it and undercarbed (og was 1.010 or so) but the general taste and aroma is glorious. . Wow. So looking forward to this first ag batch! I'm on my kit brew pilsners now so this fresh one really threw me for six Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 OK fair point. Taking that up to a full size batch boil of 30ish litres should theoretically take about half an hour to bring it to boiling. It probably takes about that long for my urn to bring 33ish litres to the boil from the mid-high 60s and then boils about 3L and hour off. The boil off rate is the more important figure. For a normal sized batch around 3L an hour is a pretty good rate to aim for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corksniffer Posted January 8, 2017 Author Share Posted January 8, 2017 You know, something really strange has happened to my wild yeast fermenting hydro sample. It appears 'finished' at 1.044.. from vigorously frothing a few days ago it's dropping clear without a bubble in sight. Could it be the extra trub creating a false reading? I think it'd have to be. Not game enough to take a swig. It's sitting right next to the microwave, maybe radiation killed them or something. Maybe heat. I don't know Meanwhile, the real deal is in full swing! Nice, high krausen, Bubbling away. The trub/cold break has gone, there's some of it floating because of active fermentation and the usual yeast crud compacting on the bottom. Got a great feeling about this, been there from conception and I just know it's going to be great Also taking the opportunity to begin my first batch prime. I'm so sick of some bottles exploding while others are perfectly carbed. I'd say it's because some bottles get a little trub with unfermented bits which adds up. Using a little sugar 'measure' is far less than ideal to start with because some bottles get more or less. Plan is to boil the sugar (go for 2.2ish on a calc for pilsner?) Tip that into a clean fermenter. Transfer brew to that fermenter, stir but not oxygenate and bottle. Sound ok? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corksniffer Posted January 8, 2017 Author Share Posted January 8, 2017 Interesting article on no chill http://brulosophy.com/2015/11/09/cooling-the-wort-pt-1-no-chill-vs-quick-chill-exbeeriment-results/ It doesn't sound ideal to be honest. Considering a chiller or something to keep them clean now, but I'm probably just worrying myself for no reason again. Interesting result anyway. I have a pool, could cube it up and dump it in but the water's only ever as cool as 30 degrees, not sure if that would really achieve much I dropped 20 degrees transferring from kettle to fermenter. Thinking I could pick up a couple of steel water bottles to keep in the freezer and just dump them into the kettle while waiting for the trub to settle out. Probably work a treat EDIT: Thanks to Kels', I've just noticed 2l milk bottles are HDPE 2! Thanks mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 I wouldn't read too much into that experiment. It's one dude who had problems. I've been no-chilling all different styles for a few years and they all turn out really well, except when the recipe itself isn't very good. Plenty of others are using it to great effect as well. Point is, I get where he's coming from with the bitterness and all that, but all you've gotta do is work out a hop schedule that works with the method to give you the end result you're after. If it means a small addition at 60 mins for bitterness then the rest in the cube, or at flameout, or whatever, that's all part of the experimentation. I've settled on a schedule of either FWH or a 60 min addition, plus late additions at 5 mins and flameout, and a dry hop. This works to give me what I want in my pale ales. I do change it for other styles as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenyinthewestofsydney Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Read this article as well. As a rule now I quick chill my lagers for two reasons. I find it is the single best way to reduce chill haze and also yes I think it tastes different (Better) than a no chilled ones. Ales I'm not so sure about. Anyway each to there own. No chill is definitely a shit load easier than chilling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corksniffer Posted January 8, 2017 Author Share Posted January 8, 2017 Nice work on the hop scheduling Kels', I'll have to play around with this too and see what different adjustments yield Cheers for chiming in too Greeny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 No problem mate. It's the best way to do it with no-chill. I know there's this blanket "shift everything back 15 minutes" mantra, but I think it's a load of nonsense to be honest because it doesn't work for everybody. The FWH/60-5-FO schedule I use, at least for APAs, just came about by experimenting. It works for my tastes, but it might not work for someone else. 60 minute additions don't need to be moved anywhere because the increase in IBUs contributed by these additions by no-chilling is really 4/5 of FA. It doesn't even warrant consideration. It's the later additions that are more affected, and that's where you need to work it out yourself. I've said it for a while, the best way to approach hop additions for no-chilling is to ignore these supposed timing rules - simply experiment and work out what kind of hopping schedule works best to suit your tastes. It'll probably take a few batches, but that's half the fun of it anyway Cheers Kelsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corksniffer Posted January 9, 2017 Author Share Posted January 9, 2017 MY AIPA CAME!! I rushed home from the post office and got straight into it. Hit OG bang on 1.060 again so my mash efficiency is good. I actually ordered a BIAB bag with this order but it's much less fine than the one I bought from Hong Kong. Not much gets through it because straining the wort into fv and pulling that bag out took forever with all those hops I had 1.5 2 litre milk bottles on hand. 1x fully frozen and one half frozen. I also turfed some ice in the hot wort too. Got it down to 50 degrees within 20 minutes so I'm sure that simply freezing more will get it right down close to pitching This kit did actually come with minerals very close to those Kels' mentioned earlier, with the addition of 2g epsom salts Wort tastes incredible. . Looking forward to this one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 OG is part of the efficiency calc, the actual volume of wort is the other . If you're talking about the SG of the wort in the fermenter then you're referring to overall efficiency rather than mash efficiency (which is measured pre-boil), and if the volume of wort is e.g. 3L less than it should be and the OG is the same as the recipe then the efficiency is lower. I'm guessing you're mashing the grains in the bag and then using it or the other bag as a strainer of sorts into the FV after the boil? Just trying to work out your process. I hope the next thing on your shopping list is a ball valve and silicon hose. It will make life a lot easier. By the way, I did a brew day today as well. I left the wort sit in the urn undisturbed for 20 minutes after the boil finished, which allowed the hot break crap to settle out nice and compact in the bottom and then transferred the wort slowly to the cube. The wort was still sitting at 90C in the cube once it was filled. Pitching yeast into that one tomorrow arvo and expecting about 26L into the fermenter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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