Corksniffer Posted December 31, 2016 Author Share Posted December 31, 2016 I've had a thought. Wouldn't BIAB make more sense of you didn't really use the bag? Why not throw your grain into the mash. Mash, tip into a FV (or whatever really) which has the bag over it, pull the bag out, sparge and boil. Probably get better flavour and efficiency that way too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corksniffer Posted December 31, 2016 Author Share Posted December 31, 2016 I've been reading up on PH and already have calcium bicarbonate and gypsum for going the opposite way but have been reading gypsum might not be the best way to go, people seem to use lactic acid, which I can't find online from anywhere. Can I use gypsum to lower ph? Is it best to test ph 5 minutes into mashing? What about 'acid resting' how will this affect ph testing schedules? Hopping and alpha acids? Is ph crucial for extract and kit beers also? If so, that could explain a few things. I know I probably don't need to dig this deep just yet but I've got plenty of time before the grain arrives and enjoy learning about it. I want to do it properly Just ordered some brew ph test strips and "How to brew" by John Palmer EDIT* here's a good article on general ph http://beersmith.com/blog/2008/10/05/beer-ph-hard-water-treatment-for-brewing/ still not sure on the gypsum to lower ph, but from what I read, nothing seems to come recommended. Seems there may be some grey areas What about 5.2 stabilizer? https://www.morebeer.com/products/52-ph-stabilizer.html?a_aid=winninghomebrew instantly creates a 5.2 stability no matter what ph your mash, really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristinaS1 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 pH strips are okay but the gradations are coarse and they can be impossible to read if you are brewing something dark. I have a $20 pH meter which got good reviews on Amazon. It works reasonably well, but the thing with pH meters is that you need to calibrate them with pH 7.0 and pH 4.0 solution, and keep the sensor moist during storage. You are supposed to use storage solution for that, but I use pH 4.0 solution instead, which someone told me is a good substitute. The meter will come with a little bit of calibration powder, which you are supposed to mix with distilled water (RO is not good enough), but after that you will need more, and it can be hard to find. I eventually found some (reconstituted) for a reasonable price in a local hydroponics store, so check there, if you have one in your area. I'd stick to the strips if you can't find the calibration solutions locally. Kelsey is going to say don't bother with $20 meter and save up for an expensive one, but suit yourself. You'll probably get a year out of a cheap one. Regarding pH 5.2, its been discussed before on the forum and most have a negative opinion of it. Can you use gypsum to lower the pH of the mash? To a certain extent, but you have to keep your sulphate to chloride ratio in mind. A combo of gypsum and calcium chloride may work better and is used by many who use RO water for brewing, but you might still need some acidulated malt so as not to use too many salts. Gypsum is strongly flavoured. Cheers, Christina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corksniffer Posted January 1, 2017 Author Share Posted January 1, 2017 Cheers everyone This water stuff is doing my head in! It looks like I might be tipping the salt levels over recommended range if I use it to lower mash ph (?) And no one seems to be able to agree on one acid (apart from the one I can't find anywhere) what am I supposed to do? Not real keen on the acid malt, I just feel it's easier to add acid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morrie Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Cheers everyone This water stuff is doing my head in! It looks like I might be tipping the salt levels over recommended range if I use it to lower mash ph (?) And no one seems to be able to agree on one acid (apart from the one I can't find anywhere) what am I supposed to do? Not real keen on the acid malt' date=' I just feel it's easier to add acid[/quote'] You say "What am I supposed to do". Well this is what Kelsey wrote and I think you should follow it as all this shit is doing your head in mate as well as mine reading it: Kelsey Quote: "Knowing these will tell you what beer styles your untreated tap water is best for, but it will also allow you to make mineral salt additions to suit other styles. I wouldn't worry too much about it yet though, as I've said just get the basics down pat first". End of quote. If you make a beer to about a minimum of 12 to 14 EBC you shouldn't have to worry about trying to correct water PH. The darker malts will take care of it all provided you aren't doing stouts or porters, then you will need to increase the PH most likely. 5.2 is a crock of shit, forget about that stuff. Have you got Beersmith2 up and running? Without decent recipe building software you're flying blind. Just forget the water chemistry for a while mate and learn AG first. Don't think about any hair brained stuff like tipping all the grain in loose etc, just follow tried and proven methods to start out with. The advice Kelsey gave you about chloride / sulphate ratios was for taste of style and not PH, it won't matter all that much using tap water for a while. If you're buying a mash kettle from a HBS, they will probably give you plenty of advice if you ask. Martin @ National Home Brew and Anthony @ CraftBrewer really know their shit and are most helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark D Pirate Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Whats wrong with acidulated malt ? you do seem very keen but like Morrie says , don't try running before you can walk Have a good read of " How to brew " and get yourself some software Beersmith 2 is a good one , Brewers Friend is what i use and it's fine for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corksniffer Posted January 1, 2017 Author Share Posted January 1, 2017 Yea, got BSII but to be honest, I'm (so far) finding it completely un-useful with nothing I can't easily find on Google. Anyway, sorry to inconvenience you guys. You don't have to participate in the thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark D Pirate Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Beersmith takes some setting up , has features you may never use and will be intimidating at first but it is a very useful tool once you have it worked out . First challenge is to get your equipment profile entered , size of kettle ect , may take you a few brews to get it dialed in for boil off rates and losses to deadspace , trub and hops but will get there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morrie Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 With Beersmith the first thing you need to do is to set up an equipment profile to suit your system. If you've got a Grainfather or Braumeister or Crown Urn, or what ever you intend to buy, maybe ask someone on here if you're unsure of how to set up the equipment profile. Or even if you're buying a kettle from a HBS they will probably be kind enough to help you set it up over the phone. I bought the BS2 key from CraftBrewer and Anthony spent quite a bit of time on the phone helping me out with it. Needless to say I later bought a brew kettle from him. BS2 does need a bit of time and involvement to get fully acquainted with it and after a while you'll be plainsailing. You will know, estimated OG, estimated FG, mash efficiency, brewhouse efficiency,how bittter, what colour and how much ABV your beer will approximately end up at by the inputs of malt, hops, yeast and water into the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 Honestly, I'd forget the mash pH and water treatment and all that shit until you get a handle on the basic processes. They really don't matter that much at this stage. Yes, different water profiles suit certain styles and the mash should be within a range, but you're only starting out. These things are the icing on the cake of AG brewing. Besides, what's the point in adjusting mash pH when you don't even know what it is, or if it even needs adjusting? I still haven't bothered adjusting mine yet, and have no problem with efficiency or beer flavour. If I did have issues and that was the only thing that could be causing it, then I'd look into it. I would steer clear of that 5.2 stabiliser though, it doesn't get good reviews in many places. Acidulated malt is fine. It's not really any different to using normal malt and adding a little acid to the mash - the stuff is coated in the same acid. I'm not really sure what calcium bicarbonate is... it's not one of the brewing salts anyone uses anyway. The ones used are Calcium Sulfate (gypsum), Calcium Carbonate (chalk), Calcium Chloride, Magnesium Sulfate, Sodium Bicarbonate (baking soda) and Sodium Chloride (table salt). Overall though, you need to worry about your system first. Get the volumes worked out that you need. Boil off rate. Strike volume needed. Trub loss etc. Get your mashing technique sorted. You're trying to learn everything too quickly and it will only end up doing your head in and probably result in shitty outcomes from trying too many things at once. Basics first, when you learn them, then move on to the more intensive stuff. And no, it makes no sense to not use a bag and drain it into a fermenter if you are doing BIAB - you just lose volume. And then you have to clean out the urn of all the grain before you boil it anyway. Way more work for very very little gain. Cheers Kelsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corksniffer Posted January 3, 2017 Author Share Posted January 3, 2017 I have the PH test strips for checking the mash. Just a couple questions about Beersmith 2. I've read that it has an expected mash ph when you pump in a recipe but mine doesn't have this feature? I can find 'mash ph' inside the 'mash profile' tab but it's just set to 5.2 unless I manually change it, which means nothing. Doesn't matter what type of malt I have selected for a recipe or what type of water. I can't imagine that's right. People say you can also choose a water profile and have the app tell you what's required of yours to match it but this I can't find either. Apparently there's a version 2.3 but the app store just had 2 and 2 lite. It seems a good app but dissapointing all the good stuff seems to be missing. I go to design a test recipe so I can get used to using it but always end up disheartened by something missing. Even something as simple as priming sugar. Sure, you can choose from a great list and enter volume but I can't see anywhere that tells me how many grams I have to prime it with to reach the carb level I apparently selected. I must be doing something wrong, couldn't be this bad, could it..? Maybe a question for BS2 direct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 I dunno what the app is like as I use the desktop version on a proper computer. The mash pH feature comes up in the recipe design thing. You design a recipe then click on the mash tab and it usually has a predicted mash pH, measured mash pH etc. The predicted number does change depending on ingredients. The test strips aren't really all that useful though, a proper meter would be more accurate. I still think you'd be better off forgetting all that to begin with, and just brew a few batches to get the feel for it. This chemistry stuff is more advanced stuff that you worry about when you're already used to brewing AG and used to your system and all the basic stuff. I've been brewing AG for just over 4 years and only started seriously mucking around with water treatment in the last 6 months or so. It's not necessary to start off with, and you will just make it way more complicated than it needs to be while you are starting out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark D Pirate Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 This may be the single largest downfall of beersmith , it is targeted at AG brewers who already know what they're doing don't get me wrong it's a fantastic bit of software but can be intimidating for new brewers As far as trying to make your own recipes for now i'd skip it , get the equipment profile dialed in on some tried and proven ones for similar equipment , then start doing some SmaSh brews to get your head around what each malt and hop bring to the party and what YOU want to drink . i did all that before i started messing with my water so i may have led you astray there filling from a garden hose on a warm day will give you crap beer no matter how good the ingredients though , fermenting at wrong temp or with a massive underpitch will also give you crap beer These are the 1% things that stop beer being crap , they won't make a meh beer great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corksniffer Posted January 3, 2017 Author Share Posted January 3, 2017 Cheers mate, I'll forget about it then and just enjoy the AG process for a while in that case Still waiting for any grain to come :( stupid public holidays.. (first time I've ever said that) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corksniffer Posted January 5, 2017 Author Share Posted January 5, 2017 MY PILSNER KIT CAME!! I'm currently 20 minutes into the boil and still over the top excited. The ingredients include: 4.3kg Joe White exp pilsner malt 700g Joe White wheat malt 50g Saaz 60m 50g Saaz 20m 20g Saaz 0 1x whirlfloc 1x 34/70 yeast I'm yet to wring the bag because it's just too hot but hit 1.048 pre boil spot on! Instructions were: 10 mins @ 45, 10 mins @ 56, 45 mins @ 65, mash out @ 75 10 mins. This was painful but hear it's not actually necessary. Is that true? Would save time that's for sure I tipped the hops straight in because I couldn't use the hot bag :( but, gonna use the bag over the FV when siphoning in, straight into the brew fridge for cooling. Then pitch So cool.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corksniffer Posted January 5, 2017 Author Share Posted January 5, 2017 Transferred to FV with 4mm food grade hose. Dropped from 98 to 80 degrees. Was a 19l kit but mine came out at exactly 23 excluding trub. Used 27l total mash/boil. With the extra sparge and cooling water so I could use the grain bag FG is 1.048 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 I think you've messed up your gravity readings somewhere, or added more water or something. You can't boil for an hour or more and remain at the same gravity. Those steps aren't necessary with modern malts, no. You can just do a single step in the mid 60s if you like. Probably easier when just starting out, but I'd still mash it for a minimum of 60 minutes. Personally I mash for 90 minutes. Also a good idea to let the wort sit in the kettle for about 15-20 minutes after the boil is finished to let the trub settle out more before transfer. It won't drop in temp by too much, especially in Darwin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corksniffer Posted January 5, 2017 Author Share Posted January 5, 2017 Cheers Kels'! Just measured the hydro tube again (after it warped with boiling wort..) it's cool now and reads 1.050! I wrang the bag out to remove as much as I could. Mill was 'grainfather'. I used about 8-10 cups of water to sparge on top of the 27l start All up it's taken me 5.5hrs start to (almost) finish. Still have to pitch I thought my glass cooktop was going to break under all that weight. . Might look into an outdoorsie burner. I chose the thinner siphon tube in hope it would cool off faster which I think worked ok. Took 15 minutes just to transfer and I held it high so it had even more time to cool before hitting the FV. The bag over FV works an absolute treat in removing hops and trub Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 That's why I have borosilicate glass hydro test jars, so I can put hot wort into them without issue Did you take the pre-boil gravity before you sparged? If so it would account for the SG being overly close to the post boil SG. I am gonna try something different on my next batch. I'm gonna take the pre-boil SG sample just as it begins boiling. I feel this way the wort will be more evenly mixed from the action of the boil itself, even though I don't sparge myself. Plus you're getting the full pre-boil volume. You'll probably find it won't chill down to pitching temp until tomorrow morning most likely, given where it has started from. Get yourself a couple of cubes though, then you can do a couple more brews while this one ferments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corksniffer Posted January 5, 2017 Author Share Posted January 5, 2017 Good tip! You won't believe this but fg is 1.052 now.. still must have been a tadd warm before. Yes, I took the mash sample pre-sparge. I can tell you've done this a few times! I'm wondering: what'sup with the kit instructions saying 19l 1.048 starting gravity? Why is mine so high in 23l? yes, the fridge seems to be actually hot! Rather than cold :( will have to pitch in the morning Cube? = genius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 OG not FG . Yes, temperature will affect the SG reading. If you don't take it at 20C then you need to apply a correction factor to it, to account for the higher or lower temperature. I've got one on my phone, check the temp and reading now and I'll work it out if you like. You must have gotten a better extraction efficiency than the kit prediction, either that or your hydrometer is reading too high for some reason. Check the accuracy of it too, 20C water it should read 1.000. Yup, 23L of wort won't cool down all that quickly. That's partly why I store mine in sealed cubes, the other reasoning behind that is that they do sit there for anywhere from a day or two to a few weeks before being actually fermented. Saves using the fridge to chill them too. Cheers Kelsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corksniffer Posted January 5, 2017 Author Share Posted January 5, 2017 Sorry, too excited! OG.. I'm definitely grabbing a cube tomorrow. Got the day off with nothing to do. Maaaybe my IPA will arrive!! OG is sitting at 30.2 degrees at 1.052, now I'm imagining how far it's out after all these brews!? EDIT: Hydro reads 1.001 - 1.002 at tap temp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark D Pirate Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Let the break material settle out before you decide how much is beer and how much is crud If you tipped everything in theres still crap and hop matter included then your numbers will be way off volume wise otherwise happy brewday ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Sorry' date=' too excited! OG.. I'm definitely grabbing a cube tomorrow. Got the day off with nothing to do. Maaaybe my IPA will arrive!! OG is sitting at 30.2 degrees at 1.052, now I'm imagining how far it's out after all these brews!? EDIT: Hydro reads 1.001 - 1.002 at tap temp [/quote'] Ok, well tap temp is probably 30 degrees up there, which would mean at 20C it would read about 1.003-4, so we'll call it 1.049 to account for the error, for the temp it's corrected to 1.0516. Maybe you should just take hydro readings at 30C Edit: misread the following post. Yes you do want to let the crap settle out first. Not only for more accuracy with volume measurements, but fermenting on hot break (kettle trub) is a bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corksniffer Posted January 5, 2017 Author Share Posted January 5, 2017 Thanks fellas! Do you just watch the siphon and stop when the break starts coming? There's alotta crap in there isn't there.. mine literally stopped itself when it hit the 5mm hose, made a weird gurgling noise and stopped, luckily for me but I'll be wary of it from now on. There's ppssibly a tadd more 'crap' than normal in the hydro sample (comparing to extract anyway) but as it's fallen clear they look very similar. My bag is very fine and does a great job of filtering the fv too (thinner than paint strainers!) Came from Hong Kong too, as did my kettle. I remember walking past shops and shops full of them wondering why they had so many and what they were for.. I think now that they boil all those discusting animals with the bag so no gizzards get through. Soups are very common place over there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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