Trub fluidity/stability

[Back Brewing]

1 minute ago, Kegory said:

You are right, the next line says "that doesn't mean you can't." Good idea, go straight to the source. I think you and @kmar92 are probably right, it's more related to the yeast but I will give them a ring when I get an opportunity.

[Shamus O'Sean]

2 hours ago, Kegory said:

Ok, cool.

I fermented it at around 14C for 14 days then raised it to 22C over 4 days. I backed it off to 18C for another day and then let it cool down to about 13C overnight. I didn't cold crash it because I'm bottling and I didn't want to have to use another yeast to carbonate it.

 

I think the lack of a cold crash contributed to the more liquid yeast cake.  Plus, sometimes I find a bit of inadvertent agitation, when tilting the fermenter, can resuspend the yeast.

Cold crashing does not kill yeast.  I cold crash all of my brews these days.  I usually bottle a couple every batch.  I never have issues with carbonating in bottles caused by yeast.

[Kegory]

46 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

I think the lack of a cold crash contributed to the more liquid yeast cake.  Plus, sometimes I find a bit of inadvertent agitation, when tilting the fermenter, can resuspend the yeast.

Cold crashing does not kill yeast.  I cold crash all of my brews these days.  I usually bottle a couple every batch.  I never have issues with carbonating in bottles caused by yeast.

Cheers @Shamus O'Sean. Yeah, I've always worried that tilting the fermenter would resuspend the yeast but this was the first time it actually happened.

[Aussiekraut]

10 hours ago, Kegory said:

Hmm, ok. I read something somewhere saying that cold crashing might kill of the yeast and you might need to use a champagne yeast if you are bottle conditioning. Of course I don't recall where I read that or the specific yeast or recipe it was talking about. Not that it matters at the moment as I don't have the capacity to cold crash yet. But that's something to keep in mind.

Nah mate, cold crashing and bottling are fine. I have never had to add yeast to bottle condition after cold crashing a batch. You get less sediment in the bottle if you CC but there are enough yeast cells floating around in the beer to do the job. Once the bottles warm up again, the yeast will wake up, looking for food.

[Classic Brewing Co]

9 hours ago, Back Brewing said:

No the fwk was designed for brewers who couldn't be bothered or didn't have time to AG also for beginners to brew a quality beer first up.

I bet there are plenty of brewers bottling fwk kits

Yeah, they are great when you want a quick good quality beer, they are far superior to any k & k however, you can jazz up them with 200gm carapils, extra malt etc.

FWK are dearer but there is one place in Adelaide that sells them cheaper than I have seen them online, then I would have freight on top. To make it more appealing you can place an order & they ship it to you buy a local parcel delivery service for $6,50 per kg.

[Kegory]

2 hours ago, Aussiekraut said:

Nah mate, cold crashing and bottling are fine. I have never had to add yeast to bottle condition after cold crashing a batch. You get less sediment in the bottle if you CC but there are enough yeast cells floating around in the beer to do the job. Once the bottles warm up again, the yeast will wake up, looking for food.

Thanks AK, very reassuring. When I eventually get my hands on my fermenting fridge I'll be cold crashing with gusto.

[Kegory]

Does cold crashing lead to a significant change in the residual CO2 levels or is it negligible? I found this article about Residual CO2 and Priming Sugar, but it only talks about fermentation temperature but it doesn't seem to take into account any changes in the levels from cold crashing.

[Otto Von Blotto]

14 hours ago, Kegory said:

Hmm, ok. I read something somewhere saying that cold crashing might kill of the yeast and you might need to use a champagne yeast if you are bottle conditioning. Of course I don't recall where I read that or the specific yeast or recipe it was talking about. Not that it matters at the moment as I don't have the capacity to cold crash yet. But that's something to keep in mind.

It's nonsense mate. I don't know where that myth started but cold crashing doesn't kill off the yeast. Consider that anyone who knows what they're doing stores liquid yeast in the fridge because it keeps it more viable for longer. I'd imagine that most of them harvest it at room temperature and stick it straight in the fridge. That works fine so I don't know why anyone would think that doing basically the same thing in a fermenter would kill it off. If the beer froze, perhaps some issues might arise, but a normal chilled for a week or whatever is fine. 

Unless you crashed it for something ridiculous like 6 months, which you wouldn't anyway, there will still be plenty of yeast in suspension to ferment the priming sugar and carbonate it, so don't take any notice of anyone saying it drops too much out. That is also nonsense. I actually chilled a lager for five weeks before bottling it years ago and it still carbonated perfectly fine. Probably not best practice, but the point is the yeast still did its job. 

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

1 hour ago, Kegory said:

Does cold crashing lead to a significant change in the residual CO2 levels or is it negligible? I found this article about Residual CO2 and Priming Sugar, but it only talks about fermentation temperature but it doesn't seem to take into account any changes in the levels from cold crashing.

Negligible at best. Most of it escapes the fermenter during fermentation, it's not coming back in. Whatever is in the headspace is probably mixed with air anyway, especially if there's been dry hops or finings added. It might add 0.1 volumes to the beer, which is not even worth worrying about. Prime the bottles at the normal level and they'll be fine. 

[Kegory]

5 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

It's nonsense mate. I don't know where that myth started but cold crashing doesn't kill off the yeast. Consider that anyone who knows what they're doing stores liquid yeast in the fridge because it keeps it more viable for longer. I'd imagine that most of them harvest it at room temperature and stick it straight in the fridge. That works fine so I don't know why anyone would think that doing basically the same thing in a fermenter would kill it off. If the beer froze, perhaps some issues might arise, but a normal chilled for a week or whatever is fine. 

Unless you crashed it for something ridiculous like 6 months, which you wouldn't anyway, there will still be plenty of yeast in suspension to ferment the priming sugar and carbonate it, so don't take any notice of anyone saying it drops too much out. That is also nonsense. I actually chilled a lager for five weeks before bottling it years ago and it still carbonated perfectly fine. Probably not best practice, but the point is the yeast still did its job. 

 

Thanks Otto, that's an excellent point about storing yeast in the fridge.

I'm not exactly sure where I read it but I was reading some Hobgoblin clone recipes on other forums last week and I suspect it was probably on one of those.

[Kegory]

5 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Negligible at best. Most of it escapes the fermenter during fermentation, it's not coming back in. Whatever is in the headspace is probably mixed with air anyway, especially if there's been dry hops or finings added. It might add 0.1 volumes to the beer, which is not even worth worrying about. Prime the bottles at the normal level and they'll be fine. 

My next question was going to be about finings. I'm guessing it's safe to assume there's still gonna be enough yeast for carbonation even with finings and cold crashing.

[Otto Von Blotto]

1 hour ago, Kegory said:

My next question was going to be about finings. I'm guessing it's safe to assume there's still gonna be enough yeast for carbonation even with finings and cold crashing.

Correctamundo! 

[Kegory]

On 8/13/2023 at 10:27 PM, Back Brewing said:

Yes but they are not saying you can't ferment normally and bottle

Give kegland a call tomorrow and ask

So I gave Kegland a call. There was no single, clear factor at play, according to Adam(?), but there are a number of factors at play. He didn't seem to think it was a yeast specific issue, though, more a combination of other things. He did make a few suggestions, though, saying adding finings would help clear the beer and compact the trub, and transferring to a secondary vessel and batch priming (and cold crashing would help).

He also said it was pretty normal to leave 1 and a half to 2 litres behind, and I was actually around that mark (I don't think the last bottle of this particular batch will be very drinkable). So, perhaps I've just been getting higher than normal yields on my previous brews.