S-04 Yeast and Carbonating Bottles

[AussieBottler]

I have recently tried brewing a few Coopers Pale Ale kits with Safale S-04 to see what difference it made to the flavour profile. I put the brew into Coopers bottles with 2 x carbonation drops. After 14 days the brew was still flat. I thought the Winter temperatures might be to blame so I moved the bottles into a room that sits in the low to mid 20C all the time. Still no carbonation after 14 days more. Previously, I used Safale US-05 and had no problem with carbonation. I haven't changed anything but the yeast so I'm assuming the S-04 doesn't like carbonating bottles. The sachets are in date and the yeast works as expected in the fermenter. The FG is certainly lower than the OG and foam forms on the top of the fermenter. Has anyone else had carbonation issues with S-04 in bottles?

[Popo the Reprobate]

Is there any change at all in carbonation? Just checking - Is the temperature in the room mid to low 20s all through the night also? This can really make a difference.

I have had batches that take longer to carbonate if they are not at the right temperature in the first couple of weeks. The yeast take a bit more time to get going. They eventually come good though - at least in my experience.

[Shamus O'Sean]

8 hours ago, AussieBottler said:

I have recently tried brewing a few Coopers Pale Ale kits with Safale S-04 to see what difference it made to the flavour profile. I put the brew into Coopers bottles with 2 x carbonation drops. After 14 days the brew was still flat. I thought the Winter temperatures might be to blame so I moved the bottles into a room that sits in the low to mid 20C all the time. Still no carbonation after 14 days more. Previously, I used Safale US-05 and had no problem with carbonation. I haven't changed anything but the yeast so I'm assuming the S-04 doesn't like carbonating bottles. The sachets are in date and the yeast works as expected in the fermenter. The FG is certainly lower than the OG and foam forms on the top of the fermenter. Has anyone else had carbonation issues with S-04 in bottles?

Hi AussieBottler and welcome to the Forum.  I do not use S-04 anymore because I had several cases where the fermentation stalled.  1.018ish instead of 1.012ish.  Having said that, when the brews were bottled, they still carbonated.

My understanding is S-04 likes it a bit warmer.  I brewed them around 18°C.  Maybe if your brew was a bit cooler when you bottled, it may have stalled, even though you primed the bottles with carb drops.  I would give the bottles a bit of a swirl up and put them somewhere at least 20°C.  However, it sounds like you have tried that already.

The other option, if they are that flat might be to open the bottles, drop in another carb drop and quickly close the bottle, before it foams up.  Then leave for another 2 weeks.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Shamus O'Sean

[Classic Brewing Co]

22 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

Hi AussieBottler and welcome to the Forum.  I do not use S-04 anymore because I had several cases where the fermentation stalled.  1.018ish instead of 1.012ish.  Having said that, when the brews were bottled, they still carbonated.

My understanding is S-04 likes it a bit warmer.  I brewed them around 18°C.  Maybe if your brew was a bit cooler when you bottled, it may have stalled, even though you primed the bottles with carb drops.  I would give the bottles a bit of a swirl up and put them somewhere at least 20°C.  However, it sounds like you have tried that already.

The other option, if they are that flat might be to open the bottles, drop in another carb drop and quickly close the bottle, before it foams up.  Then leave for another 2 weeks.

Great answer @Shamus O'Sean I agree with your comments, I have used S-04 in a couple of Stout Kits, one was fine, but the other was brewed in colder temperatures & that is when my heat belt died (which I have now replaced) I had to throw out 1/2 keg of the stout as the yeast had stalled.

I haven't experienced bottling with that yeast due to kegging, but I won't use it again.

 

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

3 hours ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

Hi AussieBottler and welcome to the Forum.  I do not use S-04 anymore because I had several cases where the fermentation stalled.  1.018ish instead of 1.012ish.  Having said that, when the brews were bottled, they still carbonated.

My understanding is S-04 likes it a bit warmer.  I brewed them around 18°C.  Maybe if your brew was a bit cooler when you bottled, it may have stalled, even though you primed the bottles with carb drops.  I would give the bottles a bit of a swirl up and put them somewhere at least 20°C.  However, it sounds like you have tried that already.

The other option, if they are that flat might be to open the bottles, drop in another carb drop and quickly close the bottle, before it foams up.  Then leave for another 2 weeks.

I love S04 but only use it at 20c. I would not go lower as it doesn't like it colder than that in my experience despite what fermentis says. It's always quick to ferment and no issues with carbonation if you keep it at 20c or above. 

The other thing I like is it is not prone to continued slow fermentation in the bottle like other english yeasts are.

[RDT2]

2 hours ago, Greenyinthewestofsydney said:

I love S04 but only use it at 20c. I would not go lower as it doesn't like it colder than that in my experience despite what fermentis says. It's always quick to ferment and no issues with carbonation if you keep it at 20c or above. 

The other thing I like is it is not prone to continued slow fermentation in the bottle like other english yeasts are.

+1 to the green man I use it in all my stouts and porters and never had a stall but keep it at 20 also! When I bottled I also never had any problems!

[Classic Brewing Co]

1 hour ago, RDT2 said:

+1 to the green man I use it in all my stouts and porters and never had a stall but keep it at 20 also! When I bottled I also never had any problems!

As I posted above the first Stout I made with it was great, but the second one was ruined by the heat belt failing & of course the temperature dropped below 20c so I probably shouldn't write it off altogether.

[AussieBottler]

10 hours ago, Popo the Degenerate said:

Is there any change at all in carbonation? Just checking - Is the temperature in the room mid to low 20s all through the night also? This can really make a difference.

I have had batches that take longer to carbonate if they are not at the right temperature in the first couple of weeks. The yeast take a bit more time to get going. They eventually come good though - at least in my experience.

Thanks Popo, I will keep the heat up and give the bottles a bit more time. 

[AussieBottler]

9 hours ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

Hi AussieBottler and welcome to the Forum.  I do not use S-04 anymore because I had several cases where the fermentation stalled.  1.018ish instead of 1.012ish.  Having said that, when the brews were bottled, they still carbonated.

My understanding is S-04 likes it a bit warmer.  I brewed them around 18°C.  Maybe if your brew was a bit cooler when you bottled, it may have stalled, even though you primed the bottles with carb drops.  I would give the bottles a bit of a swirl up and put them somewhere at least 20°C.  However, it sounds like you have tried that already.

The other option, if they are that flat might be to open the bottles, drop in another carb drop and quickly close the bottle, before it foams up.  Then leave for another 2 weeks.

Thanks, Shamus. Yes the batch was brewed quite cool so the yeast probably did stall. It was below 18C for a lot of the time.  I will add another drop and keep the bottles in a warmer place. Strange that English ale yeast likes it warm. I have learnt something new today. 

[Kegory]

Jumping on this thread as it seems near enough.

In my eagerness to give my new fermenting fridge a run I put in a Pan Handle Caramel Cream Ale on Cup Day. Due to having too many job sheets on the day I forgot to add any yeast nutrient. The OG was pretty high due to the amount of lactose (900g), the (unadjusted/raw) readings: 1.055 plastic hydrometer, 1.070 glass hydrometer.

I pitched one packet of US-04 at 19.1C according to my thermometer and 19.8C according to the Inkbird. I have read about US-04 stalling at around 20C so I let it sit at 19C for around 12 hours for the growth phase and then over the next 24 hours I raised the temperature slowly up to 22C. By 36 hours it had formed a nice 10mm krausen.

I took a bit of inspiration from @Shamus O'Sean and took a sample on day 8 which I have kept in the fridge alongside the fermenter.

My day 8 raw gravity readings were 1.024 plastic and 1.035 glass (adjusted 1.029 plastic, 1.031 glass). My day 10 readings from the same sample were 1.023 and 1.035 (1.028/1.031). The target FG is 1.020-1.025.

It looks like it may have stalled.

I'm raising the temp to 23C and I'll give the FV a bit of a swirl/rock to rouse the yeast. I'll take another reading from the sample on day 12 and if it's still the same I'll draw another sample from the FV and test that.

If it hasn't moved I'm considering making a trip to the LHBS and getting some yeast nutrient to add in (previously I have just been adding some spare yeast packets to the boil). I can also raise the temp another degree without too much concern. Throwing in another packet of yeast is another option (US-05, Nottingham?). I can also wait a bit longer, it's not a race.

Any thoughts, suggestions?

[Classic Brewing Co]

37 minutes ago, Kegory said:

Jumping on this thread as it seems near enough.

In my eagerness to give my new fermenting fridge a run I put in a Pan Handle Caramel Cream Ale on Cup Day. Due to having too many job sheets on the day I forgot to add any yeast nutrient. The OG was pretty high due to the amount of lactose (900g), the (unadjusted/raw) readings: 1.055 plastic hydrometer, 1.070 glass hydrometer.

I pitched one packet of US-04 at 19.1C according to my thermometer and 19.8C according to the Inkbird. I have read about US-04 stalling at around 20C so I let it sit at 19C for around 12 hours for the growth phase and then over the next 24 hours I raised the temperature slowly up to 22C. By 36 hours it had formed a nice 10mm krausen.

I took a bit of inspiration from @Shamus O'Sean and took a sample on day 8 which I have kept in the fridge alongside the fermenter.

My day 8 raw gravity readings were 1.024 plastic and 1.035 glass (adjusted 1.029 plastic, 1.031 glass). My day 10 readings from the same sample were 1.023 and 1.035 (1.028/1.031). The target FG is 1.020-1.025.

It looks like it may have stalled.

I'm raising the temp to 23C and I'll give the FV a bit of a swirl/rock to rouse the yeast. I'll take another reading from the sample on day 12 and if it's still the same I'll draw another sample from the FV and test that.

If it hasn't moved I'm considering making a trip to the LHBS and getting some yeast nutrient to add in (previously I have just been adding some spare yeast packets to the boil). I can also raise the temp another degree without too much concern. Throwing in another packet of yeast is another option (US-05, Nottingham?). I can also wait a bit longer, it's not a race.

Any thoughts, suggestions?

I have ha S-04 stall on me before while brewing a Stout, Fermentis say 18-26c is ideal, but it should be brewed at the higher temp & kept steady IMO.

I had to tip the Stout eventually but while it was in the keg it poured & looked great, but the taste was foul. I will never use that yeast again. 

[Otto Von Blotto]

51 minutes ago, Kegory said:

Jumping on this thread as it seems near enough.

In my eagerness to give my new fermenting fridge a run I put in a Pan Handle Caramel Cream Ale on Cup Day. Due to having too many job sheets on the day I forgot to add any yeast nutrient. The OG was pretty high due to the amount of lactose (900g), the (unadjusted/raw) readings: 1.055 plastic hydrometer, 1.070 glass hydrometer.

I pitched one packet of US-04 at 19.1C according to my thermometer and 19.8C according to the Inkbird. I have read about US-04 stalling at around 20C so I let it sit at 19C for around 12 hours for the growth phase and then over the next 24 hours I raised the temperature slowly up to 22C. By 36 hours it had formed a nice 10mm krausen.

I took a bit of inspiration from @Shamus O'Sean and took a sample on day 8 which I have kept in the fridge alongside the fermenter.

My day 8 raw gravity readings were 1.024 plastic and 1.035 glass (adjusted 1.029 plastic, 1.031 glass). My day 10 readings from the same sample were 1.023 and 1.035 (1.028/1.031). The target FG is 1.020-1.025.

It looks like it may have stalled.

I'm raising the temp to 23C and I'll give the FV a bit of a swirl/rock to rouse the yeast. I'll take another reading from the sample on day 12 and if it's still the same I'll draw another sample from the FV and test that.

If it hasn't moved I'm considering making a trip to the LHBS and getting some yeast nutrient to add in (previously I have just been adding some spare yeast packets to the boil). I can also raise the temp another degree without too much concern. Throwing in another packet of yeast is another option (US-05, Nottingham?). I can also wait a bit longer, it's not a race.

Any thoughts, suggestions?

What volume is the batch? One pack isn't really enough for that OG if it's a ~20 litre batch. 

The readings being rather different is odd too. Which one is correct?

[Kegory]

10 minutes ago, Classic Brewing Co said:

I have ha S-04 stall on me before while brewing a Stout, Fermentis say 18-26c is ideal, but it should be brewed at the higher temp & kept steady IMO.

I had to tip the Stout eventually but while it was in the keg it poured & looked great, but the taste was foul. I will never use that yeast again. 

Thanks Phil

[Kegory]

1 minute ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

What volume is the batch? One pack isn't really enough for that OG if it's a ~20 litre batch. 

The readings being rather different is odd too. Which one is correct?

Thanks Otto. It is a 20L batch.

Usually my adjusted readings wind up quite close, within a point or two, but, yeah, this time there is a pretty big discrepancy. One day I plan to repeat my hydrometer calibrations across a broader range of temperatures but not until I get a better thermometer.

I used a can of Mexican Cerveza and a can of Amber Malt, so 3.2kg of liquid malt which by my calculation gives me 48PKL. 900g of lactose according to my information and calculations should give me another 13PKL - 15PKL. Maybe another point or two from the steeped grains and I have an expected OG of 1.062-1.065. So, just to confuse matters, the plastic hydrometer's adjusted readings are closer to the lower end of the predicted OG and the glass hydrometer's adjusted readings are closer to the upper end of the predicted OG.

Note, the lactose contributes considerably to the OG and the FG. Given that it's unfermentable do you still use it's gravity points when calculating yeast pitch rates?

[RDT2]

19 minutes ago, Classic Brewing Co said:

I have ha S-04 stall on me before while brewing a Stout, Fermentis say 18-26c is ideal, but it should be brewed at the higher temp & kept steady IMO.

I had to tip the Stout eventually but while it was in the keg it poured & looked great, but the taste was foul. I will never use that yeast again. 

You said your heatbelt broke down when you used it???

[Classic Brewing Co]

Just now, RDT2 said:

You said your heatbelt broke down when you used it???

Yeah, well the funny thing is I brewed 2 identical batches & the first one was at ambient temperature & it was fine, the second was put in the fermenting fridge, towards the end of the fermentation I noticed the heat belt had kicked it, I did blame it at the time, but I can't be absolutely sure it was the cause, as the temperature in the fridge wouldn't have varied that much in the final days before kegging.

The brew started getting worse with each pour & eventually I had to chuck it.

[Otto Von Blotto]

40 minutes ago, Kegory said:

Thanks Otto. It is a 20L batch.

Usually my adjusted readings wind up quite close, within a point or two, but, yeah, this time there is a pretty big discrepancy. One day I plan to repeat my hydrometer calibrations across a broader range of temperatures but not until I get a better thermometer.

I used a can of Mexican Cerveza and a can of Amber Malt, so 3.2kg of liquid malt which by my calculation gives me 48PKL. 900g of lactose according to my information and calculations should give me another 13PKL - 15PKL. Maybe another point or two from the steeped grains and I have an expected OG of 1.062-1.065. So, just to confuse matters, the plastic hydrometer's adjusted readings are closer to the lower end of the predicted OG and the glass hydrometer's adjusted readings are closer to the upper end of the predicted OG.

Note, the lactose contributes considerably to the OG and the FG. Given that it's unfermentable do you still use it's gravity points when calculating yeast pitch rates?

Good question lol. I have not used lactose so I don't know, but in saying that there are always unfermentable sugars in wort made from malt and I always base the pitch rate on the OG and volume, regardless of the expected FG. 

The best way I've found to calibrate hydrometers is to measure distilled water at 4°C. It should read 1.000. I've tested mine this way and it does, so any brew readings I take I temperature adjust to 4°C. I have an app on my phone called convert everything which does a great job of this. 

[Kegory]

9 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Good question lol. I have not used lactose so I don't know, but in saying that there are always unfermentable sugars in wort made from malt and I always base the pitch rate on the OG and volume, regardless of the expected FG. 

The best way I've found to calibrate hydrometers is to measure distilled water at 4°C. It should read 1.000. I've tested mine this way and it does, so any brew readings I take I temperature adjust to 4°C. I have an app on my phone called convert everything which does a great job of this. 

Yeah, I tried mine at 4C and 20C in distilled water and at 20C in a 15 degrees Plato solution. I posted a thread about it. Frank said the Coopers hydrometer (plastic) should read 0.098 in distilled water at 20C and the glass hydrometer is meant to be calibrated to 20C according the the chart that came with it.

I hadn't anticipated such a high OG although I probably should have. I guess there's a bit of a lesson in that.

I've also had conflicting information on the PKL/PPG of lactose. If I use the highest figure Palmer provides (340-350PKL) the adjusted glass hydrometer derived OG comes very close to my calculations. But on another forum some while ago I was told by someone that usually seems pretty reliable that Palmer's numbers were wrong and the true figures are considerably lower (46PPG vs 35-41PPG, 35 being the recommended number).

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

3 hours ago, Kegory said:

Jumping on this thread as it seems near enough.

In my eagerness to give my new fermenting fridge a run I put in a Pan Handle Caramel Cream Ale on Cup Day. Due to having too many job sheets on the day I forgot to add any yeast nutrient. The OG was pretty high due to the amount of lactose (900g), the (unadjusted/raw) readings: 1.055 plastic hydrometer, 1.070 glass hydrometer.

I pitched one packet of US-04 at 19.1C according to my thermometer and 19.8C according to the Inkbird. I have read about US-04 stalling at around 20C so I let it sit at 19C for around 12 hours for the growth phase and then over the next 24 hours I raised the temperature slowly up to 22C. By 36 hours it had formed a nice 10mm krausen.

I took a bit of inspiration from @Shamus O'Sean and took a sample on day 8 which I have kept in the fridge alongside the fermenter.

My day 8 raw gravity readings were 1.024 plastic and 1.035 glass (adjusted 1.029 plastic, 1.031 glass). My day 10 readings from the same sample were 1.023 and 1.035 (1.028/1.031). The target FG is 1.020-1.025.

It looks like it may have stalled.

I'm raising the temp to 23C and I'll give the FV a bit of a swirl/rock to rouse the yeast. I'll take another reading from the sample on day 12 and if it's still the same I'll draw another sample from the FV and test that.

If it hasn't moved I'm considering making a trip to the LHBS and getting some yeast nutrient to add in (previously I have just been adding some spare yeast packets to the boil). I can also raise the temp another degree without too much concern. Throwing in another packet of yeast is another option (US-05, Nottingham?). I can also wait a bit longer, it's not a race.

Any thoughts, suggestions?

A couple of things. If your gravity reading is 1.023 and the recipe has 900gms of lactose I'd say it's done. S04 finishes about 1.014 to 1,016 on a full malt brew. S04 I have never had stall if kept at 20c constantly. Anything below that you do run a risk of a stall.

[Kegory]

6 minutes ago, Greenyinthewestofsydney said:

A couple of things. If your gravity reading is 1.023 and the recipe has 900gms of lactose I'd say it's done. S04 finishes about 1.014 to 1,016 on a full malt brew. S04 I have never had stall if kept at 20c constantly. Anything below that you do run a risk of a stall.

Cheers. 1.023 is the unadjusted/raw reading. The true SG is almost certainly four or five points higher (my post calibration rule of thumb is add 5 points to the reading). I've had beers finish with raw readings below 1.000 with that hydrometer.

Food for thought, though. I'll see what readings I get tomorrow and probably draw another sample to test if the numbers haven't moved.

[Shamus O'Sean]

7 hours ago, Kegory said:

Jumping on this thread as it seems near enough.

In my eagerness to give my new fermenting fridge a run I put in a Pan Handle Caramel Cream Ale on Cup Day. Due to having too many job sheets on the day I forgot to add any yeast nutrient. The OG was pretty high due to the amount of lactose (900g), the (unadjusted/raw) readings: 1.055 plastic hydrometer, 1.070 glass hydrometer.

I pitched one packet of US-04 at 19.1C according to my thermometer and 19.8C according to the Inkbird. I have read about US-04 stalling at around 20C so I let it sit at 19C for around 12 hours for the growth phase and then over the next 24 hours I raised the temperature slowly up to 22C. By 36 hours it had formed a nice 10mm krausen.

I took a bit of inspiration from @Shamus O'Sean and took a sample on day 8 which I have kept in the fridge alongside the fermenter.

My day 8 raw gravity readings were 1.024 plastic and 1.035 glass (adjusted 1.029 plastic, 1.031 glass). My day 10 readings from the same sample were 1.023 and 1.035 (1.028/1.031). The target FG is 1.020-1.025.

It looks like it may have stalled.

I'm raising the temp to 23C and I'll give the FV a bit of a swirl/rock to rouse the yeast. I'll take another reading from the sample on day 12 and if it's still the same I'll draw another sample from the FV and test that.

If it hasn't moved I'm considering making a trip to the LHBS and getting some yeast nutrient to add in (previously I have just been adding some spare yeast packets to the boil). I can also raise the temp another degree without too much concern. Throwing in another packet of yeast is another option (US-05, Nottingham?). I can also wait a bit longer, it's not a race.

Any thoughts, suggestions?

Hi Kegory, I agree with Greeny, I suggest it is very close to, if not already done.  The IanH spreadsheet says an OG of 1.067 and a FG of 1.030 - See the screenshot below.

The spreadsheet allows for the gravity that Lactose brings and the fact it does not ferment. 

Your thoughts that, if Lactose does not ferment, it does not need to be included in yeast pitching rate calculations, sounds logical.   Plus your SG readings indicate the brew is close to done.  That indicates you used enough yeast.

I did a brew with 1kg of Lactose in it and it turned out good to my tastes.  It was only meant to have 500g of Lactose.

[Kegory]

9 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

Hi Kegory, I agree with Greeny, I suggest it is very close to, if not already done.  The IanH spreadsheet says an OG of 1.067 and a FG of 1.030 - See the screenshot below.

The spreadsheet allows for the gravity that Lactose brings and the fact it does not ferment. 

Your thoughts that, if Lactose does not ferment, it does not need to be included in yeast pitching rate calculations, sounds logical.   Plus your SG readings indicate the brew is close to done.  That indicates you used enough yeast.

I did a brew with 1kg of Lactose in it and it turned out good to my tastes.  It was only meant to have 500g of Lactose.

Cheers. I really should play around with that spreadsheet a bit more.

I punched the numbers into an ABV calculator and it does look like it's almost done, it's getting fairly close to what the recipe predicted. I'll give it a bit more time and a little more encouragement and see what happens.