Is it time to consider an alternative sanitiser/steriliser?

[Otto Von Blotto]

*Bangs head up against wall* Starsan isn't meant to be used by itself, it's not a cleaner, it's a sanitiser. It's meant to be used as a final sanitising step after you've already cleaned your equipment with something else like bleach or one of the other sodium based cleaners. No wonder you had problems if you were only using Starsan on its own.

[sansnom]

*Bangs head up against wall* Starsan isn't meant to be used by itself' date=' it's not a cleaner, it's a sanitiser. It's meant to be used as a final sanitising step after you've already cleaned your equipment with something else like bleach or one of the other sodium based cleaners. No wonder you had problems if you were only using Starsan on its own.[/quote']

 

Well, I wouldn't consider bleach, iodophor or even metabisulphite to be a "cleaner". I mean, I use bleach (sodium hypochlorite) in my laundry, but I still use a laundry soap along with it. I don't think its any better at cleaning than starsan; it's a disinfectant and bleaching agent only.

 

I generally use sodium percarbonate or PBW for cleaning purposes, followed by a disinfectant like bleach or metabisulphite. I often use starsan at the end, just to keep stuff sanitary. I was using "cleaners" prior to starsan when I ran into issues with it. No need to bang your head against a wall.

 

Like I said, it doesn't do a good enough job for some people, but it works for others. If it doesn't work, try something that's more effective at killing bugs, like bleach.

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

It's fine if it's used after other cleaners, but if you use Starsan by itself without anything else then it won't be enough to do the job, and it was never designed to be used that way. It sounds like that's what some people are doing.

 

I also use sodium percarbonate for the main cleaning, then rinse with hot water and spray with Starsan and haven't had any problems at all. I avoid bleach because if it isn't completely rinsed off then it could lead to off flavors in the beer and that's not a risk I'm willing to take. I already remove chlorine/chloramines from my brewing water with potassium metabisulphite.

[sansnom]

It's fine if it's used after other cleaners' date=' but if you use Starsan by itself without anything else then it won't be enough to do the job, and it was never designed to be used that way. It sounds like that's what some people are doing. [/quote']

 

I'm not 100% sure why I've had issues with it, my best guess is that there's some bugs living in my house that are resistant to starsan, I live in a house built in 1896, so it seems probable.

 

I also use sodium percarbonate for the main cleaning' date=' then rinse with hot water and spray with Starsan and haven't had any problems at all. I avoid bleach because if it isn't completely rinsed off then it could lead to off flavors in the beer and that's not a risk I'm willing to take. I already remove chlorine/chloramines from my brewing water with potassium metabisulphite. [/quote']

 

The smell can be an issue, but if you're careful and rinse it properly you shouldn't have an issue. I like bleach because of it's proven effectiveness at removing bioflims. Even using it occasionally to "shock" your equipment might be beneficial. It's highly reactive, so the smell will off gas from non-porous surfaces very quickly. It's also great at removing stains.

 

As for chlorine/chloramines, I don't have that issue, because I'm on a well and I don't use the water from it for brewing, it's full of iron and very hard (400+ppm), so I only use store bought water.

[BlackSands]

Boiling does not eliminate the need for cleaning. You still need to disassemble' date=' use an alkaline cleaner, and physically scrub. If the inner workings of the tap have biofilm built up on them, and they are not removed first, you end up "cooking" the deposits in place with the hot water, creating even more hiding places. Don't you? [/quote']Well.... I wonder, even if there's a 'biofilm' residue surely the boil will have killed anything living within that residue? Also bear in mind that the tap is being used a very short time after it's been 'heat-treated' and sanitised. I concede though that if there is indeed some residue remaining inside the tap, that over time, that may well be a potential breeding ground.

 

As far as disassembly goes... I'm not sure I can do that with the tap on the FV I use as my priming bucket? Might go have a closer look now!

[Phil_McGlass]

Certainly, if you don't clean effectively, using any sanitiser is just a waste of time. I have had to work at improving my cleaning and being more conscientious, I've had a bit of a running battle.

 

But in my opinion, based on what has happened to me, using bleach as my insurance policy has worked well, better than using Tsarsan (Russian sanitiser?!), in my house and with my equipment. Millions of people testify to the effectiveness of Starsan, so I am not going to take them all on. I am sure it is effective in most circumstances. I live in a house that is about 120 years old, in a damp climate, and I'm not the biggest house cleaner in the world, and neither is the daughter who lives with me. Maybe that's the issue.

 

It never occurred to me to use heavily diluted thin bleach and distilled vinegar as a no rinse sanitiser but I decided to give it a go after reading the article linked above, and it has worked really well, for me, in combination with better cleaning. I was a bit dubious about the no rinse aspect, but I am getting really good results, and my problems have gone away. I get no trace of any effects of bleach in my brews. I allow everything to drain and dry well.

 

 

[BlackSands]

I've just boiled my taps, THEN given them a lengthy soak in a bleach solution followed by a starsan bath. If that doesn't kill off any damn bugs then I give up!

 

 

[lennyking]

Reading this with a lot of interest and thought i will add the method that seems to work best for me. After bottling ,empty FV and blast it with the hose,fill with tap water and 1/4 cup or more with bleach include the stirring spoon etc , leave at least overnight as the bleach cleans any remaining crap .Empty FV and rinse again .When im ready to throw down another brew i simply fill FV with tap water ,60ml of bleach and 60 ml of vinegar ,fill empty bottles with this also, then turn upside down to drain for the time it takes me to have my brew ready and NO rinsing .Still have a load of starsan which i use to give my empty bottles a squirt after drinking and rinsing them .Easy as cheap and 100% effective ,no more off tasting beer .

Cheers Gary

 

[ChristinaS1]

Think of cleaning like washing dishes. You wouldn't spray a dirty plate with Starsan (or bleach) and then want to eat off it. There would still be chunks of food stuck to it.

 

With dishes we use hot water, physical scrubbing, and detergent (to emulsify grease etc). But detergent is bad for head retention, so for brewing equipment we use alkaline / oxidizing products (Napisan, Oxyclean, PBW, sodium percarbonate etc) instead. They loosen biofilms, and hop matter and oil residues, which can then be rinsed away. Physical cleaning methods like blasting with a hose, soaking with plain water followed by scrubbing with a soft cloth can be added to the above if necessary.

 

Bleach, bleach and vinegar combos, boiling, sodium metabisulphite, Iodophor, Starsan, these are all sanitizing methods. The point of them is to reduce microbial counts in something that is already clean.

 

Fellas you have to do your dishes first, then sanitize. A sanitizer will not clean. Using three different sanitizing methods without cleaning? You could be wasting your time. Don't count on being able to sanitize something dirty.

 

Cheers,

 

Christina.

 

[Phil_McGlass]

I don't think anyone has said anything about not cleaning. And most people have talked about the need to clean effectively. The OP was about alternative sanitiser/sterilisers. Which is what has mostly been discussed. People trying to suggest alternatives to Starsan, to help the opening poster.

[Beervis]

I take the point about elbow grease and scrubbing like your life depends on it, but evidently with gear like PET bottles that is more difficult. Personally, I don't clean, I just soak. Remove any obvious dirt deposits, rinse off with hot water - that goes for FV, spoons, bottles, bottling wand etc - take apart anything that can be taken apart and then soak overnight, drain rinse and starsan.

 

I still get the odd dud PET bottle, but I don't think I can be any more thorough than I am without making the process boring and painful. Not to mention damaging the lining of the PET bottles.

 

One reflection I've got on this topic is potential for soaking solutions to not be strong enough? We're all trying to save money on brewing, and the branded cleaners can be expensive, possibly the solutions just aren't strong enough or left to soak for long enough?

[ChristinaS1]

One reflection I've got on this topic is potential for soaking solutions to not be strong enough? We're all trying to save money on brewing' date=' and the branded cleaners can be expensive, possibly the solutions just aren't strong enough or left to soak for long enough? [/quote']

 

Good point Beervis. That might be an issue in certain cases.

[lennyking]

I don't think anyone has said anything about not cleaning. And most people have talked about the need to clean effectively. The OP was about alternative sanitiser/sterilisers. Which is what has mostly been discussed. People trying to suggest alternatives to Starsan' date=' to help the opening poster. [/quote'] Nobodys listening except the crickets

[Phil_McGlass]

We could learn a thing or two from the crickets.

[BlackSands]

While the main focus of this discussion was more to do with the sanitation phase I would like to challenge this, based on my experience:

 

...so for brewing equipment we use alkaline / oxidizing products (Napisan' date=' Oxyclean, PBW, sodium percarbonate etc) instead. They loosen biofilms, and hop matter and oil residues, which can then be rinsed away. [/quote']

 

I found that sodium percarbonate (oxy cleaners) and TSP-based cleaners definitely do not loosen biofilms or oily hop residue. On several occasions in the past I've soaked bottles that had a very obvious residue on the inside surface for up to 24 hours with one or both of these and found the film to be completely untouched by these products. Brushing is the only way I know of to get rid of this residue and is what I currently rely on - until such time as I come across a less labour-intensive alternative! I have yet to try PBW...

[ChristinaS1]

While the main focus of this discussion was more to do with the sanitation phase I would like to challenge this' date=' based on my experience:

 

...so for brewing equipment we use alkaline / oxidizing products (Napisan, Oxyclean, PBW, sodium percarbonate etc) instead. They loosen biofilms, and hop matter and oil residues, which can then be rinsed away.

 

I found that sodium percarbonate (oxy cleaners) and TSP-based cleaners definitely do not loosen biofilms or oily hop residue. On several occasions in the past I've soaked bottles that had a very obvious residue on the inside surface for up to 24 hours with one or both of these and found the film to be completely untouched by these products. Brushing is the only way I know of to get rid of this residue and is what I currently rely on - until such time as I come across a less labour-intensive alternative! I have yet to try PBW...

 

I tend to agree with you actually. I find PBW does a better job due to also containing emulsifiers. I find it too expensive to use exclusively though. I mix PBW with my oxy-pro cleaner, which usually is good enough / works. If the FV is particularly gunky I will use a larger percentage of PBW.

 

Cheers,

 

Christina.

[Otto Von Blotto]

I found sodium perc didn't really remove this film crap from some of my bottles on its own either, however once the film was removed, regular soaking in perc (i.e. after each use) prevented it from re-appearing.

 

I often soak frying pans in it after use to loosen some of the grease before I wash them properly in detergent, and find it to be quite effective at this. Sometimes the pans appear totally clean of any oil and grease even before I wash them.

[Prang]

For cleaning not steralising.

I use Tricleanium whenever my kettle or fermentors get that film.

After a soak for an hour I give it a sponge out, it seems to work really well on stainless, plastic and glass.

I also make sure I rinse well you can buy it in Bunnings https://www.bunnings.com.au/tricleanium-1kg-all-purpose-all-purpose_p1670019.

 

I also replace my 1 piece taps regulary.

 

cheers Pete

[Otto Von Blotto]

I just use citric acid in my kettle, boiling and a bit of steel wool once it cools down enough to touch. Gets that scale right off. Doesn't really need thorough rinsing either.

[Graculus]

For cleaning not steralising.

I use Tricleanium whenever my kettle or fermentors get that film.

After a soak for an hour I give it a sponge out' date=' it seems to work really well on stainless, plastic and glass.

I also make sure I rinse well you can buy it in Bunnings https://www.bunnings.com.au/tricleanium-1kg-all-purpose-all-purpose_p1670019.

 

I also replace my 1 piece taps regulary.

 

cheers Pete[b'][/b]

 

I quite happily use that stuff when I'm decorating or cleaning things. But there's no way I'd use it with anything to do with food.

[BlackSands]

Just thought I'd update this thread with a couple of things:

 

Since boiling and bleaching my taps my suspected wild yeast-contamination problems now appear to be a thing of the past. However, I suspect it's the heat that is doing the sanitising rather than the bleach. What I believe now is that liquids whether that be starsan or bleach or whatever don't effectively penetrate the inner workings of the tap and, as has been suggested earlier, disassembly is probably the best way... however, it does look like heat from boiling water may well be effective without the need to disassemble. My last four batches have been free of any sign of over-attenuation post-bottling.

 

And here is what I suspect could be the final word on the question - "Does starsan kill yeasts?". It would appear from this scientific explanation that it does:

 

 

[ChristinaS1]

On 5/1/2018 at 8:14 AM, BlackSands said:

Just thought I'd update this thread with a couple of things:

 

Since boiling and bleaching my taps my suspected wild yeast-contamination problems now appear to be a thing of the past. However, I suspect it's the heat that is doing the sanitising rather than the bleach. What I believe now is that liquids whether that be starsan or bleach or whatever don't effectively penetrate the inner workings of the tap and, as has been suggested earlier, disassembly is probably the best way... however, it does look like heat from boiling water may well be effective without the need to disassemble. My last four batches have been free of any sign of over-attenuation post-bottling.

 

And here is what I suspect could be the final word on the question - "Does starsan kill yeasts?". It would appear from this scientific explanation that it does:

 

 

 

But there is a big "if" at the end of the video: the process happens "over time." What period of time? Is it the same length of time as for bacteria? And using the same concentration? And to how many log? The Devil is in the details. 

The maker of Starsan, Five Star Chemicals, also makes an iodine based cleaner called IO-Star (which is the same as Iodophor). They provide detailed directions for use here: http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/IOStarTech2.pdf As you can see, it outlines different concentrations and contact times for different end uses, as well as instructions as to whether it needs to be rinsed or not for the use in question.  When I wrote to the Five Star Chemicals company to ask them if Starsan is effective against yeast they replied that they had not tested its efficacy against yeast, so you have nothing to guide you, which leads me to believe that while Starsan may well be able to knock the yeast population back a notch, when used in the manner recommended for bacteria, it is not good enough for commercial purposes. I suspect this is why Five Star Chemicals, who know how to test for this, is silent on the subject....It's efficacy against yeast might be good enough for non-mission critical / home use though. 

I once poured wort into my Starsan storage container instead of the FV by accident. The mix was probably half wort, half diluted Starsan. I threw some yeast in anyway, just out of curiosity. It started fermenting within four hours, and had a huge krausen. Unfortunately the beer tasted like soap, so I threw it down the drain. 

Cheers,

Christina.

[BlackSands]

11 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

But there is a big "if" at the end of the video: the process happens "over time." What period of time? Is it the same length of time as for bacteria? And using the same concentration? And to how many log? The Devil is in the details. 

The maker of Starsan, Five Star Chemicals, also makes an iodine based cleaner called IO-Star (which is the same as Iodophor). They provide detailed directions for use here: http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/IOStarTech2.pdf As you can see, it outlines different concentrations and contact times for different end uses, as well as instructions as to whether it needs to be rinsed or not for the use in question.  When I wrote to the Five Star Chemicals company to ask them if Starsan is effective against yeast they replied that they had not tested its efficacy against yeast, so you have nothing to guide you, which leads me to believe that while Starsan may well be able to knock the yeast population back a notch, when used in the manner recommended for bacteria, it is not good enough for commercial purposes. I suspect this is why Five Star Chemicals, who know how to test for this, is silent on the subject....It's efficacy against yeast might be good enough for non-mission critical / home use though. 

I once poured wort into my Starsan storage container instead of the FV by accident. The mix was probably half wort, half diluted Starsan. I threw some yeast in anyway, just out of curiosity. It started fermenting within four hours, and had a huge krausen. Unfortunately the beer tasted like soap, so I threw it down the drain. 

Cheers,

Christina.

Ok, in that case here is what I suspect could be the final word on the question - "Does starsan kill yeasts?"

 

   

[porschemad911]

But in that case Christina, you have effectively diluted Starsan with half water half wort. Wouldn't that leave the final PH outside its effective range?

[ChristinaS1]

5 hours ago, porschemad911 said:

But in that case Christina, you have effectively diluted Starsan with half water half wort. Wouldn't that leave the final PH outside its effective range?

Hi John. Yes, you are right. But my point is that we have no guidance from Five Star Chemical company regarding the concentration and contact time required to kill yeast. They only vouch for Starsan in terms of bacteria. As I said, I suspect that Starsan does knock the yeast population down a good notch, when used as directed for bacteria, but most likely not to the standard required for commercial use. I know it is a different chemical, but I think what the IO-Star directions for use show is that yeast are tougher to kill than bacteria. If you are a home brewer re-pitching yeast and get a wild yeast infection, you have only lost 23L and aren't likely to sue the company. But a commercial brewery, whose profits and reputation depend clean batches, could loose many times that volume; they might sue Five Star Chemicals.  

FWIW, I use Starsan for my brewing, but I am careful not to re-pitch my slurry more than one or two generations, also because I do not do full wort boils. Mostly this works fine but Just recently I did have a wild yeast infection. In the first batch it was just a hint, barely detectable, which is why I initially missed it, but the following batch, fermented with slurry from the first, I had to throw down the drain.  When I make hard apple cider from raw apples, from my orchard, I give them a bath in Iodophor before crushing and use a kill factor positive yeast strain for extra insurance. 

Cheers,

Christina.