BlackSands Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 I'm becoming more and more convinced now that I'm suffering from a persistent brett (or similar) contamination in my brews. Slow-developing symptoms after some weeks in bottle is excessive foam production even with relatively low carb'd beers - something that I've discussed here at length in the past! I checked the bottle SG on the latest batch and it's clearly attenuated further. I can detect a slight shift in the flavour of the beer - perhaps a slight souring? Hard to describe but I know it's not the same as it was when it was say at 2 -3 weeks conditioned. I can't find a definitive answer as to whether starsan is capable of killing off yeats - some say it can't, some say it can: e.g. Jess Caudill, microbiologist and brewer at Wyeast: "No. It is as easy to kill as any Saccharomyces cerevisiae strain of yeast. No crazy chemical cocktails are necessary... just your normal alkaline cleaning and acid sanitization." My main suspect is the FV I use as my priming bucket as this is quite old and is common to all brews. While I bathe the tap each time in boiling water prior to dosing the entire FV with starsan I now wonder if 'nuking' the FV with something more brutal is in order? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben 10 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 I now wonder if 'nuking' the FV with something more brutal is in order? Throw it away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beervis Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 Yeah I agree, you could probably soak it in bleach or something but sounds to me like it's time for a new one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_McGlass Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 This happened to me. I tried all sorts of things and eventually cracked it it when I stopped relying on Starsan. I went back to using cheap thin household bleach, which costs about 30 pence for two litres here in the UK. I use 4ml per litre of water. My brews have been fine ever since. Bleach kills everything. What's more is that I have stopped rinsing the bleach solution too. So I still benefit from no rinse. This may sound wrong but I read about other brewers doing it with no ill effects. The bleach is highly diluted, and I allow everything to drain/dry well. Some people add a little white vinegar to the solution. I have also become much more fastidious on the bottle cleaning department. My bottles get soaked for an hour in water containing soda crystals, and rinsed. Sometimes I use a little of the liquid used for washing clothes, which is remarkably effective! Don't soak for too long with either of these things, or they leave a thin residue. I came close to giving up brewing, this regime has saved me, and my beers are better than ever. I'd still chuck the FV though, some things can't be sterilised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gag Halfrunt Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 Sodium metabisulphite is what I use, no bugs can possibly survive that shit. It almost knocks us humans out when you sniff it. Couple of FVs approaching I reckon 3 to 4 years old and never a faulty brew to be had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSands Posted February 26, 2018 Author Share Posted February 26, 2018 I now wonder if 'nuking' the FV with something more brutal is in order? Throw it away I had considered that... I'm moving house soon so it would be one less thing I have to relocate! But the idea does challenge my 'reduce waste' sensibilities I went back to using cheap thin household bleach' date=' which costs about 30 pence for two litres here in the UK. I use 4ml per litre of water. My brews have been fine ever since. Bleach kills everything. What's more is that I have stopped rinsing the bleach solution too. So I still benefit from no rinse. This may sound wrong but I read about other brewers doing it with no ill effects. The bleach is highly diluted, and I allow everything to drain/dry well. Some people add a little white vinegar to the solution. [/quote'] Sodium metabisulphite is what I use' date=' no bugs can possibly survive that shit. It almost knocks us humans out when you sniff it. Couple of FVs approaching I reckon 3 to 4 years old and never a faulty brew to be had.[/quote'] Interestingly that's exactly the regime I used WAY back in 1982! Both products - bleach and sodium metabisulphite seem to be out of favour these days... But... I have both on hand so I might give them a shot next bottling day (about a week away) and then of course wait 3 - 5 weeks to see if it's been effective or not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gag Halfrunt Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 Maybe its because sodium met seems to be quite toxic when breathed in is why its no longer popular. If you stuck your head into fermenter when soaking in this stuff and breathed in I reckon the next person you would be looking at would be a paramedic. Thats why I like it, if it can knock out a human then it surely will kill any foreign bugs or yeasties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beervis Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 Most of what I've read about sodium met is that its been superseded by the no rinse style sanitisers, not that it doesn't work or anything. I suppose any extra rinsing is a PITA but it's not like you're doing it every day. I use the spray on stuff, some variant of star san from the LHBS. But I make sure I soak the sh*t out of everything including bottles, overnight or for almost a full day in alkaline salts . I don't know for sure, but I think that might be close to PBW in terms of brand names. I've been considering going back to Napisan to save money, but after reading threads like this I'm not sure it's worth saving a few bucks if it might compromise the brew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gag Halfrunt Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 Most of what I've read about sodium met is that its been superseded by the no rinse style sanitisers' date=' not that it doesn't work or anything. I suppose any extra rinsing is a PITA but it's not like you're doing it every day. [/quote'] No need for extra rinsing, just drain solution and hang fv upside down for about an hour before brewing to drip dry, never had a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_McGlass Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 Returning to bleach was strange for me, it was down to the fact that Starsan wasn't working and to stuff I read online, including this article below about using bleach as a no rinse sanitiser. All I can say is that it's worked for me, I haven't looked back since. Something in my house is not killed by Starsan, but thin bleach seems to kill everything. And it's dirt cheap. And I use it in a no rinse as described, with no ill effects. https://beerliever.com/bleach-no-rinse-sanitiser-home-brewing-beer/ There's a link in the article to a podcast in which the guy who founded the Five Star Chemical company, which makes Starsan, talks about how good bleach is - it is the gold standard against which everything else is measured. He also says that cleaning is the most important bit, using sanitising solutions like Starsan and bleach is just an insurance policy. If you clean really effectively they are not necessary. I guess this doesn't account for some environments where yeast/wild bacteria need to be dealt with? Like my house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristinaS1 Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 Hi Blacksands. I doubt switching sanitizers will solve the problem. As you read yourself, Brett is not that hard to kill. Plus sanitizing is just the icing on the cake; the cake is cleaning. Taps are difficult to clean. I have a hunch the tap might be the weak link in your system. If you are already completely disassembling the tap and soaking it in an alkaline cleaner, and scrubbing it with a soft cloth, after each use, I'd try replacing the old bottling bucket with something that doesn't have a tap. I avoid taps myself. If you do decide to abandon the use of taps, maybe stick with Starsan initially, as it is so easy to use. Cheers, Christina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_McGlass Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 The bleach/vinegar solution can be used in exactly the same way, as it is only a teaspoon of each in a gallon of water. And it kills everything, Starsan doesn't. Sorry if I'm being overly persistent, I just got evangelical cos I was in a bad place and then I heard some wisdom and I saw the light! And my life has been completely changed. It may well be more a cleaning issue though, as you say. Some items are difficult to clean effectively, like taps. I got better at cleaning too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 Relying on Starsan to clean everything in place of a proper cleaner isn't how it's meant to be used anyway. The idea is that you clean the equipment first, either bleach, sodium met, sodium perc whatever your choice, then rinse it and spray it with Starsan. On the contrary to others' experiences I've been using sodium percarbonate to clean my fermenter/kegs/anything else in my brewery and Starsan afterwards to sanitise. Had the same FV for 6 years, the tap rarely comes apart because it cleans effectively in place anyway. None of my beers has ever ended up infected once in the bottle or keg. Mustn't be any bugs in either of the two houses I've been brewing in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RepSpec Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 ive been using the product called "miltons" Its sold as a baby bottle disinfectant/cleaner and has worked for me...I use half a bottle in a 40ltr tub and soak everything for 15 mins or more and *touch wood* havent had an issue in just over a year of brewing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSands Posted February 27, 2018 Author Share Posted February 27, 2018 As you read yourself' date=' Brett is not that hard to kill.[/quote'] I just read this in an article today: "Wild yeasts are not killed by acid washing" http://www.probrewer.com/library/yeast/contamination/ Yet more contradiction. It really makes me wonder - does anybody actually know the truth?? Hi Blacksands. I have a hunch the tap might be the weak link in your system. If you are already completely disassembling the tap and soaking it in an alkaline cleaner' date=' and scrubbing it with a soft cloth, after each use, I'd try replacing the old bottling bucket with something that doesn't have a tap. I avoid taps myself.[/quote']Well, as mentioned I do actually boil my taps prior to use so I would have thought that would have dealt to anything that may be lurking in its inner workings? On the contrary to others' experiences I've been using sodium percarbonate to clean my fermenter/kegs/anything else in my brewery and Starsan afterwards to sanitise. Likewise. I actually give my FV the sodium percarbonate treatment immediately after use and then again on brew day before dosing with starsan. Anyway... I think I'll start with sodium metabisulphite as I have a surplus of campden tablets on hand anyway so might as well make up a sanitising-strength solution and try that out on this next batch which is soon to be packaged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_McGlass Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 "Starsan is not effective against wild yeasts and molds" ... https://club.coopers.com.au/coopers-forum/topic/16003/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristinaS1 Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 As you read yourself' date=' Brett is not that hard to kill.[/quote'] I just read this in an article today: "Wild yeasts are not killed by acid washing" http://www.probrewer.com/library/yeast/contamination/ Yet more contradiction. It really makes me wonder - does anybody actually know the truth?? Hi Blacksands. I have a hunch the tap might be the weak link in your system. If you are already completely disassembling the tap and soaking it in an alkaline cleaner' date=' and scrubbing it with a soft cloth, after each use, I'd try replacing the old bottling bucket with something that doesn't have a tap. I avoid taps myself.[/quote']Well, as mentioned I do actually boil my taps prior to use so I would have thought that would have dealt to anything that may be lurking in its inner workings? Boiling does not eliminate the need for cleaning. You still need to disassemble, use an alkaline cleaner, and physically scrub. If the inner workings of the tap have biofilm built up on them, and they are not removed first, you end up "cooking" the deposits in place with the hot water, creating even more hiding places. Don't you? Sort of like if you burn the potatoes, adding water to the pot and boiling it does not get rid of the crusts on the bottom. You need to use some elbow grease. Cheers, Christina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beervis Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 This isn't very scientific, but if I'm in doubt, I soak and soak again. preferably with something that smells like it'd give you multiple organ failure if ingested. I find the cleaning products a bit confusing because everyone has an opinion on what's best and brew stores often sell their own repackaged gear that isn't called the same thing as the original product - possibly the same chemical makeup though. Example - I've been using a product called 'EGA cleaner' which has roughly 60% alkaline salts. Another one from Brigalow which is much higher, 97% alkaline salts. I've noticed that a lot of home brew companies charge outrageous prices for what are essentially cheap chemicals repackaged in tiny amounts. So with this cleaner/soaker, am I getting value for money, or chemically would Napisan style sod perc blends be just as good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beervis Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 OK I think I've figured this out. Seems that a lot of brewer-specific cleaning powders/soakers are just sodium percarbonate after all. Maybe in a higher concentration and without as many/any additives as Dysan or Coles Oxy-action, but at a much higher price point per volume. So I'd probably be better off going back to some kind of unscented Napisan style product, choosing one with a higher concentration per volume of sod perc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 That's why I buy sodium perc in 25kg bags. At $79 it works out at just under $3.20 per kilo. I've seen some shops selling it for nearly triple that. Bloody ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beervis Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 That's such a winner that deal. Bulk buy and save! The winner for absolute ripoff goes to an un-named major home brew supplier - I bought a 250gm bottle of their brewery wash - it was just sodium carbonate and it was $6.50! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 Bloody hell... That's ridiculous. Better off buying napisan than that, at least it has some perc in it to go with the sodium carbonate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sansnom Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 This is all anecdotal, but here's my take: I started using starsan about 2 years ago. Prior to that, I used either bleach or sodium metabisulfite. I never had issues with infections while using either. I decided to jump on the starsan bandwagon and bought a bottle. The second brew that I made with it as the sanitizer became infected, I figured it was just bad luck. After that I started having issues with gushers and off tastes in my brews. I decided to periodically treat my equipment with bleach or metabisulfite. I still use starsan, but more as a secondary disinfectant, instead of the main one. I know tons of people have great luck with starsan as the main sanitizer, but I didn't. I'm a very clean person and I take great care of my brewing equipment, but for some reason starsan alone doesn't seem to be enough. Maybe it's to do with the place that I live in, I don't know. Personally, I refuse to believe that it's as effective as other sanitizers, it's good enough for the most part, but in my experience it's not as good as others at killing everything. When the topic of sanitizers come up on forums like this, sometimes people talk about starsan as if it's the most effective sanitizer in the world, but if that were the case, hospitals would be using it instead of sodium hypochlorite. There's no harm in doing what the coopers instructions suggest: 1/2 cup of unscented bleach, fill the fermentor up and let it soak for 30 minutes. Throw your bottling stuff in and let it soak too. If you don't like the smell, use sodium metabisulfite or iodophor. If you are having issues with persistent infections, try a different sanitizer before you throw out your equipment. The worst thing that could happen is you lose another batch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beervis Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 From what I've read, I think the attraction of 'no rinse' is the main reason most people have switched to star san, that and the fact that it has become the industry standard. Doesn't mean it's any better, obviously, but I think that has become inferred from the fact that it's more popular. Since I moved house and have fly screens and a cleaner newer kitchen and temp control I've never had an infection. Nothing else about my cleaning routine has changed and I had a couple infections before when I was brewing under the house at my last place. My theory is opportunistic infectors had an easier time there. That is, despite the brewery wash and star san. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_McGlass Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 This is all anecdotal' date=' but here's my take: I started using starsan about 2 years ago. Prior to that, I used either bleach or sodium metabisulfite. I never had issues with infections while using either. I decided to jump on the starsan bandwagon and bought a bottle. The second brew that I made with it as the sanitizer became infected, I figured it was just bad luck. After that I started having issues with gushers and off tastes in my brews. I decided to periodically treat my equipment with bleach or metabisulfite. I still use starsan, but more as a secondary disinfectant, instead of the main one. I know tons of people have great luck with starsan as the main sanitizer, but I didn't. I'm a very clean person and I take great care of my brewing equipment, but for some reason starsan alone doesn't seem to be enough. Maybe it's to do with the place that I live in, I don't know. Personally, I refuse to believe that it's as effective as other sanitizers, it's good enough for the most part, but in my experience it's not as good as others at killing everything. When the topic of sanitizers come up on forums like this, sometimes people talk about starsan as if it's the most effective sanitizer in the world, but if that were the case, hospitals would be using it instead of sodium hypochlorite. There's no harm in doing what the coopers instructions suggest: 1/2 cup of unscented bleach, fill the fermentor up and let it soak for 30 minutes. Throw your bottling stuff in and let it soak too. If you don't like the smell, use sodium metabisulfite or iodophor. If you are having issues with persistent infections, try a different sanitizer before you throw out your equipment. The worst thing that could happen is you lose another batch. [/quote'] +1 Same experience, same conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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