Help making a pilsner like Saaz ale recipe

[#20]

Hi guys,

 

I brew extract. On my last pale ales, I have used Magnum for bittering, and used a hop schedule of @20 min, @7 mins and DH with good success for flavor/aroma. Did one with a total of 100g Citra for flavor/aroma on my last one, that was very nice.

 

This time I want to try something new. I have never used Saaz before in my brews. Have 200 grams of it. Never used Pilsen Malt either. Have 3 kg Briess Pilsen LME, and Briess Pilsen DME.

 

What I have in mind is trying to make an easy drinking "pilsner" like ale/bastard with Pilsen malt and Nottingham as yeast, and a pleasing Saaz flavor/aroma.

 

I have played a little bit with Ian's spreadsheet, and think maybe a german pilsner style beer would be a good reference point. What I really have no clue about is flavoring/aroma with the Saaz. How much to use?? How much punch is in it? Since it is a noble hop, I imagine the flavor/aroma is more subtle/"weak" than the hops I am used to (?)

 

So following these thoughts, I made a recipe to get some feedback on, just to get started tweaking something here. So:

 

3.0 kg Briess Pilsen Light LME

0.6 kg Briess Pilsen Light DME

25g Magnum 13.1% @45 min

60g Saaz 2.9% @25 min

60g Saaz 2.9% @15 min

40g Saaz 2.9% @5 min (then steeped for another 5 mins after boil, before cooling)

 

23 litres

Nottingham

OG = 1.050

FG = 1.010

IBU = 37.2

 

What do you think? Too much Saaz, too little Saaz, not optimale hop schedule? Is the pilsen malt and ale yeast combo a weak combo?

 

Where should I consider adjusting? I haven't put in any dry hopping, as I have read about mixed results dry hopping with saaz.

 

If there is something obvious missing, I have a few more ingredients laying around and I have easy access to a LHBS.

[Beerlust]

Hi #20.

 

FWIW, I'd turf the Magnum (leave it for a boring beer! ), & back-end bitter the beer @ 60mins to approx. 25-30 IBU with the Saaz. Use one other addition of Saaz somewhere in the 10-20min range to bring the total IBU up to around the 30-35 IBU mark.

 

The Nottingham is a fav for these pseudo lager beers, & although not quite as good as the lager strains, it does a reasonable job. Just be mindful to pitch enough yeast & ferment it low.

 

Otto Von Blotto & headmaster (in particular) have been putting in some serious time with pilsners over the last 12 months or so, perhaps check out Kelsey's Bohemian Pilsner thread for some relevant info. Hopefully the boys chime in with their thoughts too.

 

Good luck with the brew.

 

Lusty.

[#20]

Thanks, Lusty

 

Thanks for the tip on that Bohemian Pilsner thread. I'm gonna read that one for sure, but it's a biggie , so I'm gonna take that one tomorrow . 2 AM here

 

Why do you advice on dropping the Magnum and use Saaz for bittering instead? I thought there is little to no flavor/aroma from a 60 min bittering boil? So why not go with the high AA Magnum?

 

But if going all Saaz, with one bittering addition and one flavor/aroma addition, I could maybe do like this?

 

125g Saaz 2.9% @60 mins (25.41 IBU)

75g Saaz 2.9% @15 mins (7.56 IBU)

Total IBU = 32.9

 

Would you btw advice pitching 2 packs (22g) of Nottingham rehydrated for this one? When going at the lowest recommended temp range?

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

I have to agree with Lusty re the Magnum in this case. I do like the hop for bittering other styles of beer, but IMO it doesn't really suit a pilsner style beer. My first batch used it as I didn't have enough Saaz to use all the way through, but the subsequent batches which were all Saaz were much nicer. My usual schedule for pilsners is (90 minute boil) FWH, 80 minutes and 15ish minutes to get to around 40-43 IBUs. This is roughly based on the Pilsner Urquell hopping schedule, just adapted slightly to suit my no-chill system. You probably don't need a 90 minute boil with extract though, so I'd adjust this to suit a 60 minute boil in your case.

 

Pilsner/Pilsen extract + Saaz is Bohemian Pilsner territory rather than German. This style is not dry hopped, so I personally don't do it in my recipe.

 

Your malt side of things looks fine.

 

So yeah, basically if you want to get it authentic as possible (aside from the yeast obviously), pils malt, all Saaz hops, no dry hop. That's pretty much all that goes into them.

 

For the hops, you could probably keep the 15 and 5 minute additions, or combine them both into a 10 minute addition, which means you will probably have to lessen the amount. Throw in a bittering addition at 60, and perhaps some FWH hops as well.

 

My hop schedule gets about 35 IBUs from the FWH and 80 minute addtions (combined, not each), and about 7-8 IBUs from the 15 minute addition. So pretty much what Lusty has recommended there, just slightly higher IBUs. That should hopefully help you in re-working your hop schedule.

 

Next brew day after today's one I'm gonna brew my first pilsner for a while, it's been too long!

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[headmaster]

#20, +1 for using Saaz only, that is for bittering as well as flavour and aroma.

 

I have made this one from the Clones book, back when I was doing a couple of extract brews using that same malt you have there. Recipe here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6WviIZzzPRPTVdDUG12Vmk1V1U/view?usp=sharing

 

It was inspiring, really really good. I have made it trying some magnum for bittering and was quite different, and not as good at all. Urquell who invented the pilsner, use all saaz fo theirs too.

 

I think, as this recipe suggests, you should be using over 100g just for bittering addition. It's a lot of hops to drop for bittering, but the stuff is like liquid gold. Worth it IMO.

[Waylon]

Smash it with a heap of saaz @60min and another @ 15m

 

If your going to go to the trouble of this Pilsner with saaz brew

 

 

Using the ale yeast such as Nottingham can go vary low 14-16 degrees for this brew!

 

But Ide personly be going for a bohemian type yeast,

 

Saflager 34/70 and brewing it at 12-14 degrees... would be my easy choice of yeast...

not to hard to get your paws on either...

 

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

I wouldn't call W34/70 a Bohemian type yeast, but it would still work well if you chose to use it. Personally, I use Wyeast 2001 in my pilsners and ferment it at 10C; it is reputedly the Urquell H-strain yeast that is used in the commercial version. This is probably why my attempts have turned out very close to Pilsner Urquell, combined with the Bohemian pilsner malt and the 100% Saaz hopping, which are also in the original of course.

 

That said, I think Nottingham at 14C or so would do well too, plus you have the advantage of not having to muck around with diacetyl rests or extended lagering periods, not that I bother with the latter myself even with the lager yeast.

 

Bo pils is one of my favourite styles of beer and as such I did a fair bit or research on it before compiling my recipe. I wasn't trying to clone Urquell, just simply brew something similar in the style. A side by side taste test was conducted with the original at one point. The flavour of each was nearly identical, the only thing missing from mine was a bit of hop aroma, but I'm not terribly worried about it. Overall though, the outcome exceeded my expectations in the end, so I was pretty chuffed with that.

 

My next batch is an experiment in itself, I'm not using any Munich malt which was in my previous batches; instead I'll be using some Melanoidin malt and some Acid malt, together with the Bo Pils base malt. Obviously sticking with the same hop schedule and yeast. Looking forward to the results.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[#20]

Thanks for the input Kelsey, Headmaster and Waylon

 

As for the yeast, I will go with Nottingham at low temps this time around. As Kelsey says, it's a bit "easier". And I already have it in the fridge.

 

As for the hopping, I'm convinced. I’m gonna go all Saaz but restrict it to the 200g I have at hand. I need to play around a bit with the hop schedule, based on your advice guys. Maybe I’ll try a FWH as well….hmm.

 

Kelsey – You dial me in on Bohemian Pilsner. Looking at Bohemian Pilsner in Ian’s Spreadsheet, I see that FG is recommended to be from 1.013(low) to 1.017(high). That is higher than I originally planned for this beer. I imagine my recipe above will end up around 1.010, with the Nottingham.

 

But on the other hand, you say my malt side of things look fine.

 

What I started to think about now is - should I add some crystal malts in there to sweeten it up just a bit (and with the added benefit of better head retention and body)? I have Carared in my inventory. Or am I better off sticking to my first plan of no crystal malts and thus a lower FG?

 

It's not gonna be exactly on style anyhow, with the Nottingham yeast. I just want to make a damn tasty beer with Saaz....spring coming soon and all, up here in Norway

 

What do you guys think? Add some Carared (around 300g?) or not?

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

I'd leave the Carared/crystal grains out. They don't suit a pilsner type beer. I'm aware of what the style guidelines recommend but mine all finish with a lower FG as well. I don't really care about stuff like that very much; I brew beer to suit my tastes and while I use style guides when creating recipes, I treat them as just that - a guide, not a strict rulebook that I must stick to at all costs.