Kearnage Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Hairy, It's only anecdotal stuff, but some people have said the bitterness achieved boiling in plain water is harsh or unpleasant and negates the benefit of higher hop utilisation- I have no actual evidence to back that up. To add to the confusion, some brewing gurus believe we have it all wrong, and that it is not the high gravity of the wort that reduces hop utilisation, but the 'hot break' which takes out hop compounds with it (they correlate though as high gravity brews have more hot break). This of course largely relates to all grain brews, and suggest that hop utilization using kits / extract should vary much less with gravity as the hot break is not such an issue. I think the safe thing in all of this is that if you are steeping (ie not isomerising the alpha acids, just flavour/aroma) water is fine. As is wort! Ouch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kearnage Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 What is best? I will be steeping hops for Aroma' date=' flavour and bitterness.[/quote'] Jarvo - you won't get bitterness by steeping. You need to boil the hops to extract bitterness. Steeping can do the other two though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squishy Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I've done a boil with LDM and a Boil without........ Didn't notice the difference Maybe if you doing a hectolitre(Love that word!!) brew it might make a difference but maybe at 23 litres it isn't noticeable???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamH1525226084 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Hmmmm, I think I'll just go with water. IT sounds close to wort too, so maybe it's the same thing [lol] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 Hmm, can of worms opened here. Not sure if I'm glad I asked the question or not! [lol] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien E1 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Oh great. Everything I know is wrong.[biggrin] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamH1525226084 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Science question time. If you were to boil your hops in water, with a condenser, could you extract both bitterness (in your water) and capture the aromatic and flavouring oils? Something like this setup... If I could brew beer and play with chemistry surely that would be the perfect hobby? [love] Maybe somehow I can blow something up too! [devil] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 Maybe somehow I can blow something up too! [devil] That's the only part that made sense to me [biggrin] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistnbroke Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 This ones straight from palmers how to brew: "The utilization is influenced by the vigor of the boil, the total gravity of the boil, the time of the boil and several other minor factors. The vigor of the boil can be considered a constant for each individual brewer, but between brewers there probably is some variation. The gravity of the boil is significant because the higher the malt sugar content of a wort, the less room there is for isomerized alpha acids." I won't be boiling with malt extract anymore then. Seems that you are just wasting your hops??? EDIT: Sorry Bill, didnt realise you had already posted that [lol] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kearnage Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 If you really want to confuse yourself, here are some fun podcasts: Tinseth on hop utilisation Including:His thoughts on recent research that utilization may be independent of wort gravity Palmer and Jamil Including:recent scientific studies \u201c\u2026measured the amount of alpha (acids) going into solution and it does not depend on wort gravity.\u201d aye aye aye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 From further readings, it seems there is a consensus about the balance of the extraction and that the flavours will be harsher with an extraction in water, PH was also raised as a potential issue but I need to read up a bit more on this. I do agree that you CAN do it but the question is why would you do it? Especially from an AG point of view there is little point (in water extraction) and in fact the process of adding them to the wort is one of the most enjoyable of the whole deal, For kits Id have to say that it's probably MORE important as you want a smooth flavour / aroma addition. For me, Ive done it with water and a coffee plunger at racking and bottling and not noticed anything bad, I guess like most things in berwing there are reasons and circumstances to make it a viable option for the right reason. Would I make it a practice? No, I enjoy throwing them in the wort, I think the process is right and if it costs me 50c more do I care? No. Will I put 25g of hops into a coffee plunger again? Probably[lol] I think this is one of those, horses for courses things. What does Coopers do PB? Do you extract in water and add the malt? hops boiled in water and reduced is ISO hop isnt it? [sick] each to their own, me, Im gunna throw em in[roll] and by the by, the figures I quoted earlier came up alot in my research - 1030 - 1050 optimal [ninja] Yob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistnbroke Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 This.has turned into a great topic of conversation, an interesting one at that. There seems to be alot of contradictory information out there floating.around, which makes it hard at times for the novice to know ig they are brewing the right way to get great beer, would be interesting to hear pauls take on this being.a brewer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 The results of the research won't change my current method. I'm still going to boil my hops in wort with a gravity around 1030-1040. My method works for me and I am happy with the taste. A better extraction in water may mean I can save, what, 5g of hops? I'm not too concerned about that. I don't make hop teas (ie. steep) too often now but if I do I will continue to use water. For me it is simple and it works. But I agree, it is interesting reading. And thanks PB2 for throwing out a tiny bit of info and watching chaos ensue [biggrin] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamH1525226084 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I guess the only way you can really work out which is the better way to go is to try it yourself. But, you would have to replicate the exact same conditions to get a true comparison, which maybe isn't achievable for every home brewer, unlike a commercial setup. Any excuse to taste more beer is a good one though in my book [lol] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 My headache just got worse!! [pouty] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 No headache required mate, those who want to use water, use water (I call a big fat [sick] on it but thats just me)[innocent] I am going to, as I presume you will, continue to do as intended with hops and boil the bloody things in Wort regardless of it being Kit or AG, the only exception being an aroma addition when racking to bulk prime, which to be fair, will probably not happen as Im a firm believer in dry dropping IN the Wort or Boiling IN the Wort as God (of brewing) intended I cant even be assed running a comparison test, and I do, as you know, have a set up where I can run the same conditions and Im sure I can produce the same Wort... It's just not worth my time or effort. Yob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I've got a question about boiling hops.. so you've got the malt extract in the water, do you wait until it is actually boiling before putting the hops into it or do they just go in straight away and boil up with the rest of it? If the latter, do you start timing from when it starts boiling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Yes, add the hops once it has started boiling and then start your countdown/timer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Thanks Hairy! That's what I did last brew I made, glad I got it right [lol] Cheers, Kelsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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