Closed Pressure Transfer

[Lynchy17]

Does anyone have a fairly straight forward method for transferring beer from a fermzilla all rounder to a keg oxygen free?

I was thinking of leaving the pressure in the fermzilla at 12psi and purging my keg to 5psi then hooking up the liquid lines from my fermzilla to the keg. I have a shut off valve for the kegs gas post to stop the flow once it’s full.

Any thoughts?

[Pale Man]

3 minutes ago, Lynchy17 said:

Does anyone have a fairly straight forward method for transferring beer from a fermzilla all rounder to a keg oxygen free?

I was thinking of leaving the pressure in the fermzilla at 12psi and purging my keg to 5psi then hooking up the liquid lines from my fermzilla to the keg. I have a shut off valve for the kegs gas post to stop the flow once it’s full.

Any thoughts?

@Shamus O'Sean has an excellent gravity method that is oxygen free and saves on using bottle gas, also stops foaming.

[Lynchy17]

6 minutes ago, Pale Man said:

@Shamus O'Sean has an excellent gravity method that is oxygen free and saves on using bottle gas, also stops foaming.

That’s great. I can’t seem to find it, does anyone have the link the post where he explains it?

[Pale Man]

34 minutes ago, Lynchy17 said:

That’s great. I can’t seem to find it, does anyone have the link the post where he explains it?

Shamus's method.

 

This is how I do a closed transfer (closed loop oxygen free). 

• Atmospheric pressure in the keg
• 15psi in the fermenter
• Connect beer line to beer out post of fermenter
• Connect gas line to gas out post of keg
• Connect the beer line to the beer out post of keg
• Count to 10
• Connect the gas line to the gas in post of the fermenter 

The 15psi makes the beer flow into the keg in the first place

The count of 10 allows time for enough beer to go into the keg and cover the bottom of the beer out dip tube.  This is important because if you connect the gas line to the gas in post of the FV too soon, the flow will slow to a trickle or even stop.

Once you connect the gas line to the gas in post of the fermenter, you will hear the gas pressure equalise.

Somewhat amazingly, the syphon effect takes over and the beer keeps flowing from the FV into the keg.  The syphon effect works whether you are at normal air pressure or still under pressure.  When the gas pressure equalises, you probably have somewhere between 5 -10 psi between the FV and the keg.

The scales are so I can monitor the flow by the weight increasing and I also know when the keg is just about full.

You can do it like you did Squinter, with CO2 to push the beer out and an open ended gas out on the keg.  But that unnecessarily uses up more gas.  It is probably quicker though.  But you do not want the transfer to be too quick if your beer is already carbonated becasue it will froth up in the keg and come out the gas in before the keg is full of liquid.

 

Kegged the Coopers recipe Code Breaker IPA last night.  I wish I had done a double batch of this instead of the Craft sized batch.

Popped the keg in the kegerator at 40psi.  Should be ready in about 12 hours.

[Lynchy17]

1 hour ago, Pale Man said:

Shamus's method.

 

This is how I do a closed transfer (closed loop oxygen free). 

• Atmospheric pressure in the keg
• 15psi in the fermenter
• Connect beer line to beer out post of fermenter
• Connect gas line to gas out post of keg
• Connect the beer line to the beer out post of keg
• Count to 10
• Connect the gas line to the gas in post of the fermenter 

The 15psi makes the beer flow into the keg in the first place

The count of 10 allows time for enough beer to go into the keg and cover the bottom of the beer out dip tube.  This is important because if you connect the gas line to the gas in post of the FV too soon, the flow will slow to a trickle or even stop.

Once you connect the gas line to the gas in post of the fermenter, you will hear the gas pressure equalise.

Somewhat amazingly, the syphon effect takes over and the beer keeps flowing from the FV into the keg.  The syphon effect works whether you are at normal air pressure or still under pressure.  When the gas pressure equalises, you probably have somewhere between 5 -10 psi between the FV and the keg.

The scales are so I can monitor the flow by the weight increasing and I also know when the keg is just about full.

You can do it like you did Squinter, with CO2 to push the beer out and an open ended gas out on the keg.  But that unnecessarily uses up more gas.  It is probably quicker though.  But you do not want the transfer to be too quick if your beer is already carbonated becasue it will froth up in the keg and come out the gas in before the keg is full of liquid.

 

Kegged the Coopers recipe Code Breaker IPA last night.  I wish I had done a double batch of this instead of the Craft sized batch.

Popped the keg in the kegerator at 40psi.  Should be ready in about 12 hours.

That’s great to know.

So having oxygen at atmospheric pressure inside the keg doesn’t expose the beer to oxygen in the keg?

[Pale Man]

7 minutes ago, Lynchy17 said:

That’s great to know.

So having oxygen at atmospheric pressure inside the keg doesn’t expose the beer to oxygen in the keg?

You shouldnt have oxygen in your keg, purge it before transfer. As long as the C02 pressure in the keg is less than the fermenter it will transfer. 

[Lynchy17]

2 minutes ago, Pale Man said:

You shouldnt have oxygen in your keg, purge it before transfer. As long as the C02 pressure in the keg is less than the fermenter it will transfer. 

Perfect.

What weight is a full keg?

[Pale Man]

You dont have to do it this way, you can use your C02 bottle on the fermenter, and force transfer. Using your spunding valve on the C02 post on your keg. 

Dont over do it with the gas or the beer will foam. 10 psi is plenty. 

[Pale Man]

1 minute ago, Lynchy17 said:

Perfect.

What weight is a full keg?

From memory about 21 kilo, but each is different. Best weigh it yourself. 

[Lynchy17]

4 minutes ago, Pale Man said:

You dont have to do it this way, you can use your C02 bottle on the fermenter, and force transfer. Using your spunding valve on the C02 post on your keg. 

Dont over do it with the gas or the beer will foam. 10 psi is plenty. 

Great, I will give this a go tomorrow. 
 

Much appreciated.

[Lynchy17]

On 6/25/2022 at 9:36 AM, Pale Man said:

Shamus's method.

 

This is how I do a closed transfer (closed loop oxygen free). 

• Atmospheric pressure in the keg
• 15psi in the fermenter
• Connect beer line to beer out post of fermenter
• Connect gas line to gas out post of keg
• Connect the beer line to the beer out post of keg
• Count to 10
• Connect the gas line to the gas in post of the fermenter 

The 15psi makes the beer flow into the keg in the first place

The count of 10 allows time for enough beer to go into the keg and cover the bottom of the beer out dip tube.  This is important because if you connect the gas line to the gas in post of the FV too soon, the flow will slow to a trickle or even stop.

Once you connect the gas line to the gas in post of the fermenter, you will hear the gas pressure equalise.

Somewhat amazingly, the syphon effect takes over and the beer keeps flowing from the FV into the keg.  The syphon effect works whether you are at normal air pressure or still under pressure.  When the gas pressure equalises, you probably have somewhere between 5 -10 psi between the FV and the keg.

The scales are so I can monitor the flow by the weight increasing and I also know when the keg is just about full.

You can do it like you did Squinter, with CO2 to push the beer out and an open ended gas out on the keg.  But that unnecessarily uses up more gas.  It is probably quicker though.  But you do not want the transfer to be too quick if your beer is already carbonated becasue it will froth up in the keg and come out the gas in before the keg is full of liquid.

 

Kegged the Coopers recipe Code Breaker IPA last night.  I wish I had done a double batch of this instead of the Craft sized batch.

Popped the keg in the kegerator at 40psi.  Should be ready in about 12 hours.

This isn’t quite working.

Silly question, but what is atmospheric pressure?

 

I have tried a closed transfer and no movement. I tried Shamus’ method and slight move to but the beer stopped before it even made it to the keg.

[ozdevil]

7 minutes ago, Lynchy17 said:

This isn’t quite working.

Silly question, but what is atmospheric pressure?

 

I have tried a closed transfer and no movement. I tried Shamus’ method and slight move to but the beer stopped before it even made it to the keg.

mate,  attach  co2  post of fermenter    then  attach your jumper line from the beer out of fv to keg    attach your spunding valve  and just open enough until you here gas coming  out

or  you can lift the prv valve on the keg to expel the gas  

then your wort should  then transfer to keg

[Lynchy17]

11 minutes ago, ozdevil said:

mate,  attach  co2  post of fermenter    then  attach your jumper line from the beer out of fv to keg    attach your spunding valve  and just open enough until you here gas coming  out

or  you can lift the prv valve on the keg to expel the gas  

then your wort should  then transfer to keg

Still nothing which is ordinary. There is a bit of sanitiser stick in the beer line and the only way to get it moving is crack the psi up to over 20 which I know isn’t great.

The beer has Beene closed to oxygen as I removed the lid to see if there was a blockage but everything seems clear.

[Lynchy17]

If anyone could correct me on these steps it would be great.

1/ purge keg

2/ Connect co2 to fermentor at 15psi

3/ Connect beer line to fermentor

4/ Connect beer line to keg

5/ Attach spundling valve to keg (set at 5psi)

So far, no result.  All I have managed to achieve is waste a lot of gas through mistakes and leaving the valve open when I took out the gas line. Also got a nice foam show when I checked the drip tube line and forgot to depressurise the fermentor. One of those days…

 

Pretty sure the beer will be shot, but I would like to get the process sorted for the future so I don’t have to go back to my old fermentor.

[kmar92]

@Lynchy17 I use a slightly different method, but the principles are the same. You want to establish a syphon from the FV to the keg so the FV must be higher than the keg. You must have a floating dip tube attached in the FV to the beer post on th FV. Purge the keg but make sure that you release any pressure in the keg after purging, just release the pressure with the PRV on the keg. You must have greater pressure in the FV than the keg to start the syphon. Once you connect a line from the beer post on the FV to the beer post on the keg beer should start to flow. Once that flow has started the keg has to be able to vent CO2 as it fills. You are using a spunding valve on the keg gas post which should be fine. Personally I do not use a spunding valve I just simply vent the keg with a line from the keg gas post to the gas post on the FV. You really do need to use any CO2 once the syphon starts, which is why I do not bother with a gas bottle connected to the FV, the FV just has to start with more pressure in it than the keg.

[ozdevil]

1 hour ago, Lynchy17 said:

If anyone could correct me on these steps it would be great.

1/ purge keg

2/ Connect co2 to fermentor at 15psi

3/ Connect beer line to fermentor

4/ Connect beer line to keg

5/ Attach spundling valve to keg (set at 5psi)

So far, no result.  All I have managed to achieve is waste a lot of gas through mistakes and leaving the valve open when I took out the gas line. Also got a nice foam show when I checked the drip tube line and forgot to depressurise the fermentor. One of those days…

 

Pretty sure the beer will be shot, but I would like to get the process sorted for the future so I don’t have to go back to my old fermentor.

I suggest you watch this guy 
 

he goes through the entire purpose

 

[Shamus O'Sean]

2 hours ago, Lynchy17 said:

1/ purge keg

2/ Connect co2 to fermentor at 15psi

3/ Connect beer line to fermentor

4/ Connect beer line to keg

5/ Attach spundling valve to keg (set at 5psi)

That is the correct way to transfer the beer using your CO2 gas bottle.  You could also do away with the spunding valve and lower the regulator pressure.  It is strange that you are not getting any flow.

I have only had a lack of flow for two reasons, but there are probably more.

1. The dip tube in the FV had a little split where it connects to the short stainless steel tube in the FV lid - The CO2 went into the FV and straight out via the split.
2. Yeast was stuck in the dip tube and took a fair amount of pressure to push it out.

[Lynchy17]

5 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

That is the correct way to transfer the beer using your CO2 gas bottle.  You could also do away with the spunding valve and lower the regulator pressure.  It is strange that you are not getting any flow.

I have only had a lack of flow for two reasons, but there are probably more.

1. The dip tube in the FV had a little split where it connects to the short stainless steel tube in the FV lid - The CO2 went into the FV and straight out via the split.
2. Yeast was stuck in the dip tube and took a fair amount of pressure to push it out.

Thanks for the reply.

 

it is strange that I get such a small amount of beer through the beer line but I just stops before it hits the keg. As soon as I hook the beer line up the the keg you can see the beer go straight back the the fermentor even though it’s at a higher pressure.

[Lynchy17]

10 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

That is the correct way to transfer the beer using your CO2 gas bottle.  You could also do away with the spunding valve and lower the regulator pressure.  It is strange that you are not getting any flow.

I have only had a lack of flow for two reasons, but there are probably more.

1. The dip tube in the FV had a little split where it connects to the short stainless steel tube in the FV lid - The CO2 went into the FV and straight out via the split.
2. Yeast was stuck in the dip tube and took a fair amount of pressure to push it out.

What psi is atmospheric pressure?

[kmar92]

1 minute ago, Lynchy17 said:

Thanks for the reply.

 

it is strange that I get such a small amount of beer through the beer line but I just stops before it hits the keg. As soon as I hook the beer line up the the keg you can see the beer go straight back the the fermentor even though it’s at a higher pressure.

There is something wrong with the setup, it is impossible for the beer to flow back to the FV if the pressure is higher in the FV than the keg. Are you sure that the keg has zero pressure and is vented via the spunding valve?

[kmar92]

5 minutes ago, Lynchy17 said:

What psi is atmospheric pressure?

Measured in your setup it should be zero. It actually is 1bar = 14.7psi at sea level, but when you measure it via a pressure gauge it should read zero as the gauge should be just comparing the pressure from one side of the gauge to the other so zero, i.e. no difference of the keg pressure to atmosphere.

Edited June 26, 2022 by kmar92

[Shamus O'Sean]

11 hours ago, Lynchy17 said:

What psi is atmospheric pressure?

It's just the natural pressure around us in the air or the "atmosphere".  Most gauges, like your regulator or a tyre pressure gauge are calibrated to show zero at atmospheric pressure.