Mash volume query

[MitchBastard]

Howdy all. Cupla questions……

tomorrow (weather permitting) I’ll be brewing a vintage ale/ borderline barley wine. This is the first run of this recipe and Im actually just going to do a half batch size of 12L. Why did I do a half batch? Well I don’t really want 23L of high ABV grog if the recipe ain’t that great just yet annnnd mash tun volume wise, I wouldn’t fit the amount of grain needed in my guten.

I was planning on doing 4L per 1kg of grain which will put me at about 17L mash volume, however, this is where my queries start….I’m doubting I’ll get to the pre boil gravity required, with my equipment. So, not being able to do a reiterated mash this time around I’m wondering what would be the best way of getting to a pre boil gravity of 1.067, which would land me, after boil of at 1.080

i was thinking of potentially upping the mash volume to 22L and not sparging with the hopes that a higher water rate will allow for better extraction through the mash not being so thick. This would leave me with 17.5L after absorption and then 14.5 after the boil with an extra 2.5 Ltrs to play with should I need to boil slightly longer if need be…..

this method has some worries, I.e dilution with with a looser mash and also losing fermentables from not sparging…

 

any suggestions on the best route to take?

do i mill super fine and do a full volume BIAB ?? 
 

dump LDM into the boil?

cheers 

Edited February 27, 2022 by MitchBastard

[ben 10]

1 hour ago, MitchBastard said:

LDM into the boil?

I have done many high abv brews. Reiterated mash is my preferred and very messy method.

I have done the top up extract which is good, and my RIS get 1 kg of white sugar. Neither of these methods have been detrimental.

 

You could also go a megalong boil - like 2 hours to reduce the volume to where you want and get the high SG

[MitchBastard]

1 hour ago, disgruntled said:

I have done many high abv brews. Reiterated mash is my preferred and very messy method.

I have done the top up extract which is good, and my RIS get 1 kg of white sugar. Neither of these methods have been detrimental.

 

You could also go a megalong boil - like 2 hours to reduce the volume to where you want and get the high SG

Cheers for that. Any calculation to work out how much DME to add to get a certain amount of points? I’m sure I can fudge it in beersmith to give me an idea but just curious….

[ben 10]

9 hours ago, MitchBastard said:

Any calculation to work out how much DME to add to get a certain amount of points?

Nah, just use beersmifffff

[Aussiekraut]

How do you get such vastly different boil off and grain absorption numbers to what I see using the same system?

Based on your numbers, I get a grain absorption of a bit over 1l/kg and a boil off of 3l/h. I usually have a grain absorption of 0.6l/kg and a boil off rate of 4l/h.

 

[MitchBastard]

2 hours ago, Aussiekraut said:

How do you get such vastly different boil off and grain absorption numbers to what I see using the same system?

Based on your numbers, I get a grain absorption of a bit over 1l/kg and a boil off of 3l/h. I usually have a grain absorption of 0.6l/kg and a boil off rate of 4l/h.

 

Not too sure mate. That’s just what i seem to get. Beer smith gives me an absorption of the same amount. Ever since I set up my guten and work out the boil off rate it’s been 3L per hr. 
I wonder if grain crush can affect absorption???

[Shamus O'Sean]

On 2/27/2022 at 6:51 PM, MitchBastard said:

any suggestions on the best route to take?

I was not trying to do what you are aiming at, but on the weekend got pretty close.  See my Coopers Australian IPA brewday on the Brewday thread.

About 7.75kg of grain.  24.5 litres in the mash.  I take a pre-sparge SG reading and on Saturday it was 1.077.  Could not tell you the volume, but probably around the 17-18 litre mark.  It seems like these numbers are around what you plan to do.  No special grain crush, no extra LDM, no fancy reiterated mashes.

[stquinto]

Interesting question @MitchBastard mate. I had a similar story over the weekend trying to brew an Orval clone using my new G40 which I obviously haven't mastered yet.

I finely ground the malt, more like for a BIAB. The grain bill was 4.7kg pilsner, 0.47kg Caramber and 0.4kg Simplicity Candi Syrup. The mash was 20 litres with 13 litres sparge. Maybe I didn't drain it enough, even wprse I forgot to check the volume post-spage.

After a 60 minute boil, and cooling, I ended up with an OG of 1.040 and 14 litres (I've whinged about it in the Brew Day thread).

In the end I dissolved another pack of Simplicity (a pound, or 454g) and 250g of LME in some water and chucked it in.I ended up with 1.050.

Dunno what's happening. I'm tempted to use it as a BIAB with the colander-type bit instead of a bag. Maybe use the equipement profile as BIAB and it'll adjust the water accordingly. I've had good results from BIAB, maybe just beginner's luck

Out of interest, how do you take the OG before the boil to get the mash efficiency ? I wondered because the wort is around 80°C, that's all.

[Shamus O'Sean]

5 hours ago, stquinto said:

Out of interest, how do you take the OG before the boil to get the mash efficiency ? I wondered because the wort is around 80°C, that's all.

I have a small bowl in the freezer.  Take it out.  Grab a teaspoon.  Scoop a teaspoon worth of wort into the bowl.  Swirl it around a few times.  Cools to 20°C very quickly.  Put a few drops on a refractometer.  Check reading.

[MitchBastard]

On 2/28/2022 at 9:08 PM, Shamus O'Sean said:

I was not trying to do what you are aiming at, but on the weekend got pretty close.  See my Coopers Australian IPA brewday on the Brewday thread.

About 7.75kg of grain.  24.5 litres in the mash.  I take a pre-sparge SG reading and on Saturday it was 1.077.  Could not tell you the volume, but probably around the 17-18 litre mark.  It seems like these numbers are around what you plan to do.  No special grain crush, no extra LDM, no fancy reiterated mashes.

Hey mate, thanks for that. Good to know. 
interesting also that your grain to water ratio is just over 3L. Was it thick as all hell? You brew in a GF yeah? 

[MitchBastard]

On 3/1/2022 at 12:09 AM, stquinto said:

Interesting question @MitchBastard mate. I had a similar story over the weekend trying to brew an Orval clone using my new G40 which I obviously haven't mastered yet.

I finely ground the malt, more like for a BIAB. The grain bill was 4.7kg pilsner, 0.47kg Caramber and 0.4kg Simplicity Candi Syrup. The mash was 20 litres with 13 litres sparge. Maybe I didn't drain it enough, even wprse I forgot to check the volume post-spage.

After a 60 minute boil, and cooling, I ended up with an OG of 1.040 and 14 litres (I've whinged about it in the Brew Day thread).

In the end I dissolved another pack of Simplicity (a pound, or 454g) and 250g of LME in some water and chucked it in.I ended up with 1.050.

Dunno what's happening. I'm tempted to use it as a BIAB with the colander-type bit instead of a bag. Maybe use the equipement profile as BIAB and it'll adjust the water accordingly. I've had good results from BIAB, maybe just beginner's luck

Out of interest, how do you take the OG before the boil to get the mash efficiency ? I wondered because the wort is around 80°C, that's all.

Never fear, I had similar problems when I first used my new equipment…. Took me about 3/4 brews to really dial it in. To be honest I still have to check notes on volumes etc for each brew I do….

Was this brew meant to be a full size batch of 23L in the fermenter? 

it’s interesting though…..you’d expect much high gravity than what you got…. A few things that come to mind….. check your equipment thermometer/probe to an external one. Maybe it’s out a few degrees, which can matter, particularly if you’re mashing higher…heat a volume of water in it and see how it matches to a portable one. 
 

curious as to what part of the brew day you added the first lot of candi syrup?
 

id be looking at your hydrometer also… check it in 20 degree distilled water. It should read 1.000

On brew day, you also can do a temp adjustment just to be safe. Brewers friend has a temp adjustment calc on their site. For example,  I’f you measure your wort and it’s warmer, say, 42degrees, it’s going to read 6-7 points lower than it actually is…

i ditched a hydrometer for brew days a while back. I use a refractometer now. You only need about 10ml of liquid to sample. Unlike @Shamus O'Sean who does it properly, I just dribble it on hot and read once it’s cooler

 

[Shamus O'Sean]

34 minutes ago, MitchBastard said:

Hey mate, thanks for that. Good to know. 
interesting also that your grain to water ratio is just over 3L. Was it thick as all hell? You brew in a GF yeah? 

Hey Mitch, Yes, I brew with the GF.

My grain to water ratio is actually around 2.7 L/kg after you take out the dead space between the mash tube and the kettle walls and base.  So the grain floats around in about 21 litres of water.

I suppose it is a bit thick to stir.  I have always just followed the recommended volumes for the GF.  It looks like a porridge-like consistency.  Photo of stirring the mash part way through the mash last weekend.  Although there is some "dry" patches, with a little bit of agitation, it sinks below the surface.

I just mentioned my case because I noticed my numbers before sparging, were similar to what you were aiming for.  If you are aiming for high gravities, it is going to cost a lot more grain.  I do not know if you would be better to do a no sparge mash to get your outcome or to do a small volume sparge and then boil off longer to get back to your desired gravity.  Instinctively, the second approach should get you more volume because you are getting the extra sugars out from the sparge-rinse.

[MitchBastard]

@Shamus O'Sean nice one mate. Ah I see, I don’t actually account for the space between the malt pipe and below the basket…..I think it’s come up a few times In various threads whether to or not. What ever works I guess, although it may explain the odd volume discrepancy I’ve had on the rare occasion…. Might shuffle some numbers around and see how we go for future brews.