Abbey Blond recipe tweak

[stquinto]

G'day fellow brewers,

I'd like to try the Abbey Blond recipe but tweak it to up the alcohol content, and compensate for the fact that I can't get hold of a can of Canadian Blond.

I can get (all Cooper's) 86 day Pilsner, Australian Pale Ale, Pale Ale,  Lager, Draft and European Lager but not the Canadian.

I'd like to get close to a Duvel style, which is Belgian Pale Ale (strong). Although they origianal takes 90 days in all I'm hopeful I can brew mine using ale yeasts at aroung 20° or so in a fortnight.

According to the web the Duvel is pilsner malt, dextrose, Saaz and Styrian Goldings hops. There are some variants (triple hop) which add Citra, and it is a really good brew (although it ends uo at 9.5%...)

In the Abbey Blond recipe there are T58 and T33 yeasts in. My questions were what should I replace the Canadian Blond with, and will the double yeast batch be able to cope with adding extra powdered malt ?

I was thinking of either two cans of Coopers extract, 200g malt grain, and up to a kg of LDM (or dextrose), and 25g each of Saaz and Styrian,; alternatively substituting one of the cans with light malt extract. Is that too much fermentables ?

I have tried other manufacturers' Diablo kits but although they end up quite drinkable, they are far more amber than blond, with a lot more body.

[Pickles Jones]

27 minutes ago, stquinto said:

G'day fellow brewers,

I'd like to try the Abbey Blond recipe but tweak it to up the alcohol content, and compensate for the fact that I can't get hold of a can of Canadian Blond.

I can get (all Cooper's) 86 day Pilsner, Australian Pale Ale, Pale Ale,  Lager, Draft and European Lager but not the Canadian.

I'd like to get close to a Duvel style, which is Belgian Pale Ale (strong). Although they origianal takes 90 days in all I'm hopeful I can brew mine using ale yeasts at aroung 20° or so in a fortnight.

According to the web the Duvel is pilsner malt, dextrose, Saaz and Styrian Goldings hops. There are some variants (triple hop) which add Citra, and it is a really good brew (although it ends uo at 9.5%...)

In the Abbey Blond recipe there are T58 and T33 yeasts in. My questions were what should I replace the Canadian Blond with, and will the double yeast batch be able to cope with adding extra powdered malt ?

I was thinking of either two cans of Coopers extract, 200g malt grain, and up to a kg of LDM (or dextrose), and 25g each of Saaz and Styrian,; alternatively substituting one of the cans with light malt extract. Is that too much fermentables ?

I have tried other manufacturers' Diablo kits but although they end up quite drinkable, they are far more amber than blond, with a lot more body.

I would suggest that you use the European Lager as a substitute to the Canadian Blond and if you use T58 and T33 yeasts that should be more than capable of handling the extra malt or dextrose you use. LDM will contribute to ABV and add more to the "body" of brew than dextrose which will completely ferment out.

I wouldn't use two cans of extract as I don't think it will turn out well, however that is not to say, you shouldn't.

[Shamus O'Sean]

1 hour ago, stquinto said:

I was thinking of either two cans of Coopers extract, 200g malt grain, and up to a kg of LDM (or dextrose), and 25g each of Saaz and Styrian,; alternatively substituting one of the cans with light malt extract. Is that too much fermentables ?

Agree with PJ's European Lager suggestion.  Perhaps the Draught can.  It is the same bitterness as the Canadian Blonde, but it is a little bit darker.  I also think the two yeasts will be fine with this beer.  OG in the 80's.

These brews are often done with some sugar/dextrose.  Instead of the "up to a kg of LDM" you could do 500g of LDM and 500g of Dextrose or 500g of one of those fancy candi sugars.

@Pickles Jones, can you explain further what you think might be the issue with 2 cans of LME?  Two cans would seem to be okay to me, but admittedly, I have never used 2 cans in a brew.

[Pickles Jones]

39 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

Agree with PJ's European Lager suggestion.  Perhaps the Draught can.  It is the same bitterness as the Canadian Blonde, but it is a little bit darker.  I also think the two yeasts will be fine with this beer.  OG in the 80's.

These brews are often done with some sugar/dextrose.  Instead of the "up to a kg of LDM" you could do 500g of LDM and 500g of Dextrose or 500g of one of those fancy candi sugars.

@Pickles Jones, can you explain further what you think might be the issue with 2 cans of LME?  Two cans would seem to be okay to me, but admittedly, I have never used 2 cans in a brew.

I read the two cans of extract as two cans of:  I can get (all Cooper's) 86 day Pilsner, Australian Pale Ale, Pale Ale,  Lager, Draft and European Lager but not the Canadian.

[stquinto]

Thanks for your replies fellas.

I wasn't too clear in the question. I was thinking :

2 * tins European Lager (I would like it to be quite light in colour)

1 * 200g crystal malt grain, steeped

500g LME

500g dextrose

Saaz / Styrian hops, into the boil (not sure how long / when), with maybe some Citra as a dry hop at the end

But then I came across the Capital Pils recipe: if I changed the hops I might get the same result.

Where I am (Switzerland) it's winter, my garage is abour 13°, so I could use a lager yeast at a low temperature for fermenting, no worries.

Or even better, brew 'em both 

 

 

[stquinto]

11 minutes ago, Pickles Jones said:

I read the two cans of extract as two cans of:  I can get (all Cooper's) 86 day Pilsner, Australian Pale Ale, Pale Ale,  Lager, Draft and European Lager but not the Canadian.

My mistake, yup: one tin of European Lager, one tin of LME, 500g each of DME and Dextrose, hops as above. Phew  

[Shamus O'Sean]

19 hours ago, stquinto said:

My mistake, yup: one tin of European Lager, one tin of LME, 500g each of DME and Dextrose, hops as above. Phew  

That sounds like a good combination.

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

In a nutshell you are going to struggle to get the colour of Duvel with extract. The recipe is just pilsener malt and dextrose. 85 pilsener 15 dextrose and I believe all saaz hops. I don't think stryian is in there from memory but will confirm for you.  If you can't get WY1388 which is the duvel yeast i would actually go MJ41 Belgian ale. Its close to the flavour profile of 1388.

Not sure on your level of brewing but if your up for a stove top boil i would go 2 cans of light liquid malt extract. Boil say 1kg or so of it in 5 litres water with 60gm saaz for 60 mins. Put the rest of the cans and 1kg dextrose in the fermenter. Fill to 20L. I'd put 2 MJ41 packs in. That will get you somewhere close to duvel.

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

I was wrong there is styrian in it. 

[Shamus O'Sean]

11 minutes ago, Greeny1525229549 said:

Not sure on your level of brewing but if your up for a stove top boil i would go 2 cans of light liquid malt extract. Boil say 1kg or so of it in 5 litres water with 60gm saaz for 60 mins.

Great advice.  For me this is easier than cooking rice.

This might be worth a good think @stquinto.  I did similar today.  500g of Light Dry Malt (in your case use the Liquid Malt) in 5 litres of water.  25g Centennial at 25 minutes; 25g Mosaic at 15 minutes and 25g Cascade at 5 minutes.  After a 5 minute steep after turning off the heat, put into kitchen sink with cold water.  Then I added 2-3 litres of overnight refrigerated water to halt bitterness or flavour extraction.

[stquinto]

Thanks for the advice fellas 

I've progressed from pure kit brewing, to dry hopping, then steeping grains and boiling with hops. Time to go for a proper stove top boil - I've already got a decent 9l pot. I would try full grain but don't really have a half day free for each brew. This sounds like a good compromise.

@Greeny1525229549 - sounds great, I can get WY1388 here (even if it's twice the price as normal yeast), should I got for 2 packs (each pach does 5 gallons) ? I found the section of the book online (ordered it off amazon too) - as both Saaz and Styrian seem to be aroma types would you go for one over the other first ?

 

@shamus - these times you quote are cumulative ones, right ? Boil then at 25 minutes add the Centennial, + 15  minutes more the Mosaic, and + 5 minutes for the Cascade, leaving it to steep for another 5 minutes (= 50 minutes in all) ?

I found this reference which looks pretty useful:

https://www.brouwland.com/content/assets/docs/Hops_EN.pdf

 

 

Hops_EN.pdf

[Shamus O'Sean]

9 hours ago, stquinto said:

@shamus - these times you quote are cumulative ones, right ? Boil then at 25 minutes add the Centennial, + 15  minutes more the Mosaic, and + 5 minutes for the Cascade, leaving it to steep for another 5 minutes (= 50 minutes in all) ?

Actually hop boil is a count down time.  So I got the wort boiling first.  Then added the Centennial and started the count down timer at 25 minutes.  When  the count down got to 15 minutes (10 minutes later) I added the Mosaic.  When the count down got to 5 minutes (another 10 minutes later) I added the Cascade.

I am not sure why brewing does it this way.

You will often read/hear the boil spoken as ... a 60 minute boil with a bittering addition at 60 minutes, and 30 minutes plus flavour additions at 15 minutes and 5 minutes.  All as count down times.

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

11 hours ago, stquinto said:

 

@Greeny1525229549 - sounds great, I can get WY1388 here (even if it's twice the price as normal yeast), should I got for 2 packs (each pach does 5 gallons) ? I found the section of the book online (ordered it off amazon too) - as both Saaz and Styrian seem to be aroma types would you go for one over the other first ?

 

 

Bitter with Styrian only. Aroma with saaz and styrian IMO mate

[stquinto]

Thanks for the replies fellas. I should be getting the delivery today, looks like I know what I'm doing this weekend (not that there's anything else to do these days...)

Will let you know how it goes. I'm aiming for this brew above, and two 10 l brew of Capital Pils, one with the original Hallertau Mittlefrueh hops, and the other with Saaz and Styrian. Between the three brews I might get close to a Duvel, fingers crossed. Will be good to try out a proper boil.

I tried a bottle of a Diablo brew-kit (not Coopers) last night, TBH it was bloody horrible, even though it's been maturing for over two months. End up cooking with it I reckon 

[stquinto]

Hey fellas, 

I got around to the brew. In case I really darkened the beer from the boil I did 10 litres:

Strong Golden Ale

5l boiling water

500g LME

30g Styrian

60 minutes boil (but not a constant rolling boil)

##############

15g Saaz

10 minutes steep

Cool in sink

4 quarts left ( just under 4l)

##############

In FV with cold fridge water

1kg LME

1kg Dextrose

###############

Total 10l

Wyeast 1388 125g, activated for 7 hours

OG 18 / 1.074

Temperature 22 degrees Celsius

 

It's showing a bit of a Krausen (after a day) but the airlock isn't bubbling yet. Fingers crossed...

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

@stquinto so you just used the smack pack only?

You will get away with it but even for a 10L batch I would have made a starter for WY1388. Its a little bit of a bitch of a yeast to be honest and will likely stall at 1035ish. A stir with a sanitised spoon will help it finish off. 

Usually for my Belgians I'm using a 0.75 pitch rate as I find it gives the best level of esters and phenols but for WY1388 I find 0.75 goes too far so I use a 1.0 rate. That gets it really close to Duvel flavour and doesn't give as many fermentation issues. 

A big lever in Belgians flavour is pitch rate. If you are into Belgians and want to do more of them I encourage you to play around with the pitch rate. 

The link is a very good calculator 

https://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/

[stquinto]

@Greeny1525229549 thanks for your reply mate, appreciate the tip

It's still not bubbling, and the Krausen is only about 1cm. I'll leave it until it's been going a week and check out the gravity. If it has stalled I'll stir it as suggested. I'd rather not add more of a different yeast at this stage as by what you suggest I'd like to stick to this flavour profile.

If/when it ferments out, and I collect the slurry, do you reckon that a fresh brew (I have the rest of the ingendients left for the second half of the batch) using part of the slurry and one Wyeast 1388 kit would be enough or is it necessary to make a full yeast starter with malt etc. ? I've never made one, might be the time to do so. This was my first boil and it went pretty well.

If the colour is too dark from the boil I should consider the militations of this kind of brew from extract. Might push me over the edge into full grain. Every time I see a picture of a Grainfather on my LHBS website I swear it winks at me ...

[Shamus O'Sean]

1 hour ago, stquinto said:

Every time I see a picture of a Grainfather on my LHBS website I swear it winks at me ...

...and SWMBO whacks you across the back of the head.

Seriously though, I have a 30L Grainfather and really like it now.  It took me a while to dial it in.  On reflection though, a Guten with a similar capacity would have been cheaper and done the same job.  If I ever upgrade, it will be to the 70L Guten.

[stquinto]

On 3/3/2021 at 1:13 AM, Greeny1525229549 said:

You will get away with it but even for a 10L batch I would have made a starter for WY1388. Its a little bit of a bitch of a yeast to be honest and will likely stall at 1035ish. A stir with a sanitised spoon will help it finish off.

@Greeny1525229549 looks like your crystal ball is spot on - after 6 days it’s at 1030 ....

I’ll give it a stir. The colour is quite nice and golden - I had been concerned about the effects of the boil on that. 
For the next “half” of the brew - with the other LME can and kilo of dextrose - I’ll make a proper yeast starter with the WY1388, and pit some of this slurry in. Looking good if I can finish of the fermentation without adding a different yeast strain ! Excellent advice, thanks to you and @Shamus O'Sean

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

13 hours ago, stquinto said:

@Greeny1525229549 looks like your crystal ball is spot on - after 6 days it’s at 1030 ....

I’ll give it a stir. The colour is quite nice and golden - I had been concerned about the effects of the boil on that. 
For the next “half” of the brew - with the other LME can and kilo of dextrose - I’ll make a proper yeast starter with the WY1388, and pit some of this slurry in. Looking good if I can finish of the fermentation without adding a different yeast strain ! Excellent advice, thanks to you and @Shamus O'Sean

Yeah wouldn't normally say using slurry in a Belgian is a good idea but for a duvel type clone it probably isn't a bad one.

[stquinto]

In the end I had to chuck in half a pack of MJ 41.as it stalled again I didn't have a pack of MJ49 available and I was b*ggered if I'd use up another pack of WI1388 for 10 litres.

It's bottled now  since 26th March and maturing. I had one and it had very floral notes to it, it was also a bit darker than I imagined.  Not a bad brew, but not Duvel 

I have some Extra Light Malt powder, I might try another go. I have since acquired a bigger pot so could do a 15l boil - I've already done a couple and they worked out fine.

@Greeny1525229549  reading the book on Belgian beers that you put a photo of above, I'm not sure if I will ever manage to get close to Duvel since I don't have the means of bringing the temperature down to 0° C as they do. Obviously it's a matter of pride to try though.

Having said that, I went across border to France (I'm in Switzerland, about 30 clics from France) and found Duvel on offer for 1€ ($1.30) a bottle ! Naturally I bought a couple of slabs ("'coz I need the extra bottles for the homebrew dear").

Thanks to all of you for your advice @Greeny1525229549  ,  @Shamus O'Sean and @Pickles Jones  greatly appreciate you sharing your knowledge. Obi Wan Kenobis of the Brewing Fraternity 

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

8 hours ago, stquinto said:

 

@Greeny1525229549  reading the book on Belgian beers that you put a photo of above, I'm not sure if I will ever manage to get close to Duvel since I don't have the means of bringing the temperature down to 0° C as they do. Obviously it's a matter of pride to try though.

Having said that, I went across border to France (I'm in Switzerland, about 30 clics from France) and found Duvel on offer for 1€ ($1.30) a bottle ! Naturally I bought a couple of slabs ("'coz I need the extra bottles for the homebrew 

Yeah they do require that little bit of extra effort mate but when you nail it it's satisfying.

Must say though. If it was 1euro a bottle I probably wouldn't bother trying. Those bottles are heavy duty to stand the over 4 carbonation level so they are keepers.

Here in Australia for Duvel. Well it's just downright robbery really at 152 per case

[stquinto]

9 hours ago, Greeny1525229549 said:

Yeah they do require that little bit of extra effort mate but when you nail it it's satisfying.

Mate, I reckon that's a good part of the homebrewing for me, obviously the cost is one thing but after making quite a few of the recipes from the Coopers spreadsheet I can't drink the usual p*ss you get on draft or from the supermarket.

I reckon I will try another 10 l batch using very light malt extract powder, dextrose and the same hops in a full boil. I'll use MJ 41 (I made a mistake, I used half a pack of MJ 49 to finish the last one off), the Wyeast is twice the price, which is a bit pricey if it's to stall on me. Might even chuck in the slurry from the last batch.

As the last one was 1.074 OG I read somewhere that you you mature it for at least 1 week per 0.10 over 1.0 OG, which would make it 7 weeks. Three months is probably about right though.

Anyway, great advice mate !

As to the price of Duvel, it is a rip off your prices, but it is coming from the other side of the world. In Switzerland I pay the equivalent of nearly $5 for a bottle and we're in Europe ! Still, a trip in the car is worth it at 1€ a bottle, that's for sure. If I get the HB recipe anywhere close I won't need to bother, eh ? 

 

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

On 5/5/2021 at 7:09 PM, stquinto said:

Mate, I reckon that's a good part of the homebrewing for me, obviously the cost is one thing but after making quite a few of the recipes from the Coopers spreadsheet I can't drink the usual p*ss you get on draft or from the supermarket.

I reckon I will try another 10 l batch using very light malt extract powder, dextrose and the same hops in a full boil. I'll use MJ 41 (I made a mistake, I used half a pack of MJ 49 to finish the last one off), the Wyeast is twice the price, which is a bit pricey if it's to stall on me. Might even chuck in the slurry from the last batch.

As the last one was 1.074 OG I read somewhere that you you mature it for at least 1 week per 0.10 over 1.0 OG, which would make it 7 weeks. Three months is probably about right though.

Anyway, great advice mate !

As to the price of Duvel, it is a rip off your prices, but it is coming from the other side of the world. In Switzerland I pay the equivalent of nearly $5 for a bottle and we're in Europe ! Still, a trip in the car is worth it at 1€ a bottle, that's for sure. If I get the HB recipe anywhere close I won't need to bother, eh ? 

 

MJ41 would be the dry yeast I would use for a duvel. It's a nice yeast which is quite like WY1388 although I think a touch sweeter. I want to try it in a dark strong soon.

[Aussiekraut]

On 5/5/2021 at 7:09 PM, stquinto said:

As to the price of Duvel, it is a rip off your prices, but it is coming from the other side of the world. In Switzerland I pay the equivalent of nearly $5 for a bottle and we're in Europe ! Still, a trip in the car is worth it at 1€ a bottle, that's for sure. If I get the HB recipe anywhere close I won't need to bother, eh ? 

Beer (and other alcoholic beverages for that matter) is expensive in Australia. Full strength beer attracts alcohol excise of approx. $22 per carton. An average carton of mega swill here costs around $50+ and that isn't particularly good beer. Last time I was in Germany, I paid the equivalent of $15 for a crate of still mega swill but a little more "premium". 

I can make about 2.5 cartons of all grain beer for less than $40 and I am full enough of myself to claim that it is a fair bit better beer than what those mega breweries pump out.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Aussiekraut