Pimping Coopers ROTM

[Otto Von Blotto]

I don't speak for everyone who brews AG, or any other method, but for me personally there are no benefits to partial mashing over full volume AG brewing. I didn't see any when I made the move back in 2012 either. I had the time, I had the space for the equipment, still do, I saved the cash to buy it so I figured if I'm gonna spend the time mashing grains and boiling wort I might as well just do the whole lot rather than only some of it. It just didn't seem like a useful step to me. 

I can however see benefits of it for those who don't have access to full AG systems for various reasons but still want to make beer from grains. I just don't fall into that category.

The reason I picked up on the pre boil gravity thing was because that's what you were repeatedly talking about in previous posts.

[porschemad911]

Of course there's no need to go AG to make great beer. It's fun to try different things though, kits and bits, extract, partial mash and all grain... And just a means to an end, depends what you're trying to make.

My next batch will be an all grain beer, but my last 4 have been extract beers. Before that there was a partial mash beer. Before that there were a couple of all grain beers. And before that there was a couple of kits and bits beers.

All grain is probably better for beers that focus on the malt. Otherwise it really doesn't matter. It is not difficult to implement Tinseth's formula in a spreadsheet or programming language and add whatever hops you need to hit the IBU level you need.

@Beerlust, more hops for less IBU (due to lower utilisation, due to higher pre-boil SG) just means more flavour carry over does it not? Which is a good thing? As long as it wasn't Magnum I guess.

Cheers, 

John

[ChristinaS1]

Kelsey, there you hit the nail on the head: AG brewing requires a full volume boil. You need a way to bring that volume to a boil. You need a large vessel to hold it, and some way to heat it. A stovetop is not going to be able to bring a full sized batch up to a boil. Full sized batches require equipment that you are not likely to already own. It will have to be purchased, and stored between use.

With the lack of winter and 220volt electrical grid, the vessel and heat source issues are easier to solve in Australia than in Canada, if you have the funds, but there is always the problem of space. If space (and money) are limited, you are better off using it for a brew fridge than an AG system, IMHO.

John, thanks for pointing out that there are many ways to brew good beer. You are probably the most well-rounded brewer on the forum.  Thank you for your perspective.

Cheers,

Christina.

[Otto Von Blotto]

5 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

 

With the lack of winter and 220volt electrical grid, the vessel and heat source issues are easier to solve in Australia than in Canada, if you have the funds, but there is always the problem of space. If space (and money) are limited, you are better off using it for a brew fridge than an AG system, IMHO.

I would agree with that too. If I remember rightly I am pretty sure I started using a ferment fridge before going AG, however the fridge was already sitting there at the olds place so all I really had to do was get a controller and plug it in. I'm still using that same fridge now. 

But, getting to the main point of this post; I have heard a number of times about how 2V and 3V systems are more flexible than BIAB, how BIAB has limitations etc. which I don't dispute. However, in all three houses I've brewed in, there hasn't been the space to store a brewing system like that, but I can store an urn and a few bits and pieces easily. At the same time, I'm happy with what I'm producing and I don't think moving to a multi vessel system would actually improve the beers I'm brewing, it's not the same as the difference between extract and grain. The only thing it might help with is high gravity beers and since I hardly ever brew them, it's not really relevant. 

Space is becoming more of an issue with smaller blocks reducing the size of single storey homes, as well as a lot more units and townhouses and crap like that being built all over the place. I would like to put a second storey on this house one day and put the bedrooms and a bathroom up there, then convert the existing master bedroom into a sort of workshop area and bigger laundry. It would certainly provide a lot more storage space. High set houses are certainly at a big advantage when it comes to that, because practically the entire area of the house becomes a storage space under it. 

[Beerlust]

23 hours ago, porschemad911 said:

...@Beerlust, more hops for less IBU (due to lower utilisation, due to higher pre-boil SG) just means more flavour carry over does it not? Which is a good thing? As long as it wasn't Magnum I guess.

If this was anyone else on the forum but you John, I'd think they were baiting me. 

Us two can have a chuckle over the Magnum comment though. Hahahaha! * Whoops! * Bang! * Fell off the chair from laughing soo hard! * Whoops! * Bang! * Did it again! * 

In all seriousness, in my early days I pushed the limits of small volume boiling with larger hop quantities & learned the hard way about what the limits are. From the problems I encountered, I asked questions on this very forum, & read articles about it. Reading & understanding Garetz theory & formula for Hop Concentration Factor changed everything for me on that front. One of the main areas of sufferance I found with smaller boils that isn't often spoken about is the amount of wort lost to hop absorption.

Your point about flavour carryover from longer boiled bittering hops is something I've tried (unsuccessfully so far) to convince others of on the forum. There are some really nice characteristics thrown into a beer by different hops at traditional bittering points. It's not a dead area that many look at it as.

Cheers & good brewing,

Lusty.

[Otto Von Blotto]

I'm not totally unconvinced of it Lusty, I experienced it with my pilsners being improved when I used Saaz all the way through the boil instead of Magnum for bittering (which I only ever did out of necessity anyway due to not having enough Saaz). These beers don't really contain much in the way of late hops, so the difference was noticeable.

I am unconvinced of it making a noticeable difference in my pale ales though, because I can't tell a difference between one that uses an FWH addition of one of the late hops vs one with a 60 min Magnum addition. I chop and change between the two depending on how lazy I'm feeling (it's easy to just use FWH then not worry about adding anything else for another hour). Others' experience may vary of course, I'm only speaking about my own. 

[Beerlust]

I did a very simple & isolated hop schedule brew a number of years back to test the validity of FWH'ing. It had two simple additions. It was Cascade 60gms @ FWH, & a small dry hop of Cascade of 25gms. So NO other boil additions that could add flavour. My comments on the brew were "Hop flavour, really good!....Fantastic hop character at 8 weeks bottled". I remember the aromatics could do with a bit of a lift though.

A little while back Christina posed an interesting question I had never thought of. Could you short boil a FWH addition? Brilliant!  I wish I had thought of it!

I plan to try this on this same brew but due to the shorter boil time, I'll be able to increase the hopping weight that will retain more hop flavour without increasing IBU. It will make for a very, very interesting brew.

Cheers,

Lusty.

[The Captain!!]

1 hour ago, Beerlust said:

Your point about flavour carryover from longer boiled bittering hops is something I've tried (unsuccessfully so far) to convince others of on the forum. There are some really nice characteristics thrown into a beer by different hops at traditional bittering points. It's not a dead area that many look at it as.

 

[The Captain!!]

Sorry, 

I wrote an essay on my belief of what you were preaching lusty then went to edit and deleted it all. Nevermind.

Some of my favourite bittering hops are Pacifica, Warrior, cascade, centennial, and Chinook for the reason of they leave something behind usually some herbal or spicy flavour that I dig. 

For some punch in your face clean bitterness I find magnum a good choice or Warrior at 60mins instead of a FWA.

There still are many I want to experiment with but this is what I like so far. 

[ChristinaS1]

4 hours ago, Beerlust said:

I did a very simple & isolated hop schedule brew a number of years back to test the validity of FWH'ing. It had two simple additions. It was Cascade 60gms @ FWH, & a small dry hop of Cascade of 25gms. So NO other boil additions that could add flavour. My comments on the brew were "Hop flavour, really good!....Fantastic hop character at 8 weeks bottled". I remember the aromatics could do with a bit of a lift though.

A little while back Christina posed an interesting question I had never thought of. Could you short boil a FWH addition? Brilliant!  I wish I had thought of it!

I plan to try this on this same brew but due to the shorter boil time, I'll be able to increase the hopping weight that will retain more hop flavour without increasing IBU. It will make for a very, very interesting brew.

Cheers,

Lusty.

I will be interested to hear the results of your experiment Lusty.

I often make a series of late additions to my APAs,  in approximately five minute intervals, starting at 20 minutes, in an effort to increase the durability of hop flavour in the bottle. This works quite well but, just for fun, I am going to revisit my old idea of short boiling a FWH addition and will try adding the 20 and 15 minute additions to the wort as it is warming up to the boil. I want to wait until I am making a recipe where this technique might shine, like a ESB. I understand it is important to use low cohumulene hops for FWH, which I believe EKG is. 

I know you are supposed to boil wort for 60 minutes to drive off DMS precursors, but I never boil my partial mash wort that long. I usually add my 20 minute additions as soon as the hot break subsides. I have not noticed any DMS, probably due to dilution with the extract, which has been properly boiled.

Cheers,

Christina.

[Otto Von Blotto]

There are other reasons for boiling for 60+ minutes but these may not be as important in a partial mash brew as they are in full AG. 

That recipe Lusty mentioned I'm gonna do something like soon. Just FWH and a dry hop. I want to see what it's like on its own, rather than drowned out by all the late hops. 

[Beerlust]

10 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

There are other reasons for boiling for 60+ minutes but these may not be as important in a partial mash brew as they are in full AG.

Yeah I'm contemplating doing the short boil version as a full extract brew because of this. Even though I only do partials, even I like to boil them for 45-60mins minimum. Because of the steeping temp into the boil for the FWH I won't be able to do that with a short 30min boil.

Maybe I've just discovered another extract advantage? 

Cheers,

Lusty.

[Otto Von Blotto]

I guess the other option would be to make up a separate extract boil for that addition, but of course that'd be a lot more mucking around having to do two boils and then cool them down...

[Beerlust]

54 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

I guess the other option would be to make up a separate extract boil for that addition, but of course that'd be a lot more mucking around having to do two boils and then cool them down...

It's a good idea with merit Kelsey. 

As an AG brewer you would go to this trouble. As an extract based brewer, you wouldn't in most scenarios. 

I suppose it depends on the mindset to start with.

Cheers,

Lusty.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Personally I wouldn't, but I'm happy with how the hops present in my beers for the most part