Differences between OS, International and Thomas Cooper's Cans?

[PB2]

I guess I could just add extra pre-boiled water to the craft fermentor at bottling time?

Yep! Gently add cooled boiled water once the foam (krausen) has died down (at least 3 days prior to bottling) and do not stir.

[Beervis]

Thanks PB2! Good advice as always.

[porschemad911]

Do you have the recipe for that Saison handy John? sounds delicious.

1.7kg OS Lager kit

350g Joe White chocolate malt (steeped at 65 to 70C for half an hour)

50g Centennial @flameout

50g Centennial dry hop

Belle Saison yeast

 

Made up to 11 litres will give a 1.046 OG (plus a bit from the chocolate malt). It finished at 1.006 for me, so just under 6% ABV after bottle conditioning.

 

350g Chocolate malt may seem like a lot for a 11 litre batch, but the Joe White version is very tame indeed. I wouldn't use one of the British chocolate malts as they tend to be much darker and more intense.

 

I sampled a couple of these last night (first samples from the batch). I compared a 330ml bottle with 1 carb drop to a 500ml bottle with 2 carb drops. FWIW it looks great, a deep ruby colour, crystal clear with a thick head of foam. More importantly it tastes great to me. I didn't know quite what to expect with this combination of hop, roast and yeast character combined, but I really enjoyed it and am looking forward to drinking the rest of the batch.

 

Cheers,

 

John

[Beervis]

Thanks, yes it's an interesting combination of flavours I wouldn't be sure what to expect either, but looks interesting for sure. Did you control the temp much or just let the saison go nuts? The last saison I made turned out ok, but I think I brewed it too cold so didn't end up with much of the characteristic saison estery taste.

 

Did you find any one flavour dominating? That's what I'd be worried about not temp controlling at least a bit, the saison overtaking the hops/roast.

 

I'm in the mood for experimenting at the moment, particularly if it involves the little fermenter, so I'll be giving this one a go!

 

 

[porschemad911]

It is slightly biased towards the hops at the moment, as I had intended. The yeast character is currently in second place, then the malt and roast behind that. Despite the low FG, there is plenty of body.

 

I did pitch quite a lot of yeast, probably 200ml+ of thick slurry. If I had pitched less and let it ferment at a higher temp the yeast character would probably have dominated more than the level I was after.

 

I started the fermentation off at about 18C and let it rise to 25C which took probably 4 days. By then it was at 1.010 so I added the dry hop. A week later I removed the dry hop, then bottled a couple of days after that.

 

Cheers,

 

John

[PB2]

This one was inspired by Brewdog Electric India

Festive Funk IPA

[Beervis]

It is slightly biased towards the hops at the moment' date=' as I had intended. The yeast character is currently in second place, then the malt and roast behind that. Despite the low FG, there is plenty of body.

 

I did pitch quite a lot of yeast, probably 200ml+ of thick slurry. If I had pitched less and let it ferment at a higher temp the yeast character would probably have dominated more than the level I was after.

 

I started the fermentation off at about 18C and let it rise to 25C which took probably 4 days. By then it was at 1.010 so I added the dry hop. A week later I removed the dry hop, then bottled a couple of days after that.

 

[/quote']

 

This one sounds really nice, and I suppose that's a fair bit of hops for 11 litres so not surprising that character is dominant - I enjoy hop forward beers as long as they are balanced with a decent malt body. I've tried a few session IPA's that tasted like hop infused soft drinks, just doesn't do it for me. My current favourite is Yeastie Boys Bigmouth IPA, in terms of a good balance that isn't too alcoholic.

 

I made the Challenger IPA craft ROTM, really nice beer but I felt like the challenger dominated so heavily that it needed another 500gms of LDM to make it taste like beer and not just hops. Most of the complaints I hear about hops is 'not enough' but it is possible to go the other way for sure.

 

Mate I've been reading over a lot, lot of homebrew stuff recently, magazines, websites and old forum posts, and I think you've given me a lightbulb moment. I've been really enjoying my George fermentor just because of the smaller volume, everything feels half as difficult. But it has struck me as a bit useless because all I ever do with it is the ROTM's. Wanting to move to extract, and more experimenting, it suddenly dawned on me yesterday that your method of small volume experiments would solve all my problems - converting boil volumes for hop utilisation, storage of LME, measuring DME without it turning into a mushroom cloud on my bench, expense of ingredients, what if it goes bad and I have a huge dud batch, etc etc. Suddenly I feel like this isn't going to be as difficult as I thought! Just wanted to say thanks. I was almost about to rush out and blow $300 on a 30L boiling urn.

 

Any chance you've got all your recipes in one place somewhere? At this stage I want to stick to extract/kit brews just to keep the ingredients/outcomes a bit more predictable. But keen for some inspiration, for stuff that works at the 10/11L volume.

[Beervis]

This one was inspired by Brewdog Electric India

Festive Funk IPA

 

I've looked at that recipe section a thousand times and must've missed this one - looks really nice. Will have to give it a go!

[porschemad911]

Mate I've been reading over a lot' date=' lot of homebrew stuff recently, magazines, websites and old forum posts, and I think you've given me a lightbulb moment. I've been really enjoying my George fermentor just because of the smaller volume, everything feels half as difficult. But it has struck me as a bit useless because all I ever do with it is the ROTM's. Wanting to move to extract, and more experimenting, it suddenly dawned on me yesterday that your method of small volume experiments would solve all my problems - converting boil volumes for hop utilisation, storage of LME, measuring DME without it turning into a mushroom cloud on my bench, expense of ingredients, what if it goes bad and I have a huge dud batch, etc etc. Suddenly I feel like this isn't going to be as difficult as I thought! Just wanted to say thanks. I was almost about to rush out and blow $300 on a 30L boiling urn.[/quote']

Cheers Beervis, glad what I am saying makes sense to someone!

 

The vast majority of beers I have fermented in George have been all-grain. But I do find all-grain a bit dare I say easy? What I mean is that with all-grain you don't really have any constraints, can just make up any recipe you like, brew it and in my experience get pretty much what you expect, with of course the odd tweak or two in the back of your mind for a re-brew.

 

As a challenge (due to the constraints) and for fun and learning the most recent few have been kit / extract beers. I am trying to learn how to make 10 or 11 litres of really tasty beer using the Coopers 1.5kg LME tins and 1.7kg kit tins as a base. The main constraint is the bittering, as even with the Mexican Cerveza kit, which has the lowest bitterness of all the kit tins, you're going to be at 35 - 40 IBUs post-fermentation if made up to 11 litres. If you want less than that, the only solution is doing an extract brew.

 

My last few batches were:

• American Amber Ale based on the Mexican Cerveza kit with LDM, specialty malt and lots of Centennial
  
• Ginger Saison based on the Coopers Wheat LME tin
  
• Kumquat Saison based on the Briess Rye LME and kumquats from my tree
  
• India Brown Saison based on the OS Lager kit with specialty malt and lots of Centennial
  
• American Brown Ale based on the Australian Pale Ale kit with specialty malt and lots of Centennial
  
• (up next) Coopers Best Extra Stout based on the Australian Pale Ale kit with specialty malt and Coopers Commercial Ale yeast slurry
  

 

I want to do another hefeweizen soon too. I love drinking them and haven't made one in ages. For that a 10 litre extract batch based on a Coopers Wheat LME tin with 15 IBU of bittering and a nice hefe yeast would work perfectly.

 

I don't like S&W Pacific Ale much, but for some reason I am still tempted to try and make something in that vein. For that I'd use a Coopers Wheat LME tin, bring to the boil, add maybe 40g Galaxy and kill the heat. Steep for 15 minutes then pour through a strainer into the fermenter over a big ice block then top up to 11 litres.

 

I've also heard the Coopers Dark LME makes an awesome porter, so that's another one I'm interested in trying. I'd be tempted to bring my Aeropress home from work and add some nice coffee into the fermenter as well.

 

And a whole heap of hops arrived from Brewman today (225g each of Enigma, Galaxy, Mosaic, Nelson Sauvin and Aramis). You can't go wrong with a pale ale based on the Coopers Light LME tin plus maybe a bit of steeped crystal malt and a 15 minute hop boil + flameout addition + dry hop to evaluate a hop variety.

 

i apologize for rambling on, but I guess as you can see from my limited examples, there is a huge range of possibilities for small batch kit and extract brews. I must admit that I have occasionally been looking at my big mash tun sitting on the shelf and thinking of brewing an all-grain beer, but am still enjoying the little run of kit and extract beers I'm on. Probably I'll get a craving for another 8%+ ABV, 75 IBU, massively hopped 1800's-style English IPA and then I won't be able to resist bringing it back into action.

 

Cheers,

 

John

[Beervis]

Thanks for that John, plenty of food for thought there! One of the factors that attracted me to doing extract in George is what you've mentioned in your post - because of the small volumes you could do things like SMaSH's with just 1 can of extract and one hop, or with a small spec grain steep and would be a great way to practice/experiment without creating lots of work for yourself.

 

What you mention about being limited by the IBU's actually reminds me of the craft kits themselves... it's kinda only useful vis a vis Coopers recipes if you want something strong and rich. Which is the point I suppose but it does feel limiting. No way you could make a light beer from a kit in George.

 

At the moment I'm looking at developing a couple of 'house' beers that I will always have on the go, a kind of basic always in the cupboard brew. I'm thinking single hop extract pales and hefeweizen, or something along the lines of your pacific ale idea. I don't really like s+w either but I think a hoppier version would be ok.

 

All grain makes sense too, because with the small volumes you could do that mash in a big pasta pot on the stove and wouldn't really need any other equipment. Like maybe 17L for an 11 L batch? BIAB, strain into fermenter, bang. You'd be able to chill in the kitchen sink then too, wouldn't have to bother with cubing the wort or buying a chiller or any other expensive gear.

 

Thanks for the advice, I've got a lot to go on now!

 

Paul

[Otto Von Blotto]

I guess it depends on your situation and what you want from your brewing as to the batch sizes you brew. I'm not gonna say don't waste your time on small batches if that's what suits you, I'll just offer a different viewpoint.

 

For me personally, an 11L output isn't worth doing a 5 or 6 hour all grain brew day for, especially if it's a beer or style you already know you enjoy drinking. It's just too much time input for too little results. Bring a couple of mates around and that could well be gone in a Saturday arvo/evening session. It's only just over a carton's worth after all.

 

For experimenting and learning how ingredients work together, it's a good idea because if it turns out not so good then you don't have a whole heap to struggle drinking/tip down the sink. If you like to have a million different beers to choose from and the time to brew them all, it also works.

 

The other reason it's too small for me now is because I use 19 litre kegs. On the other end of the scale, I don't need to be brewing 40,50, 80 litre batches either, so the 21/25 litre size suits my situation well.

[porschemad911]

All grain makes sense too' date=' because with the small volumes you could do that mash in a big pasta pot on the stove and wouldn't really need any other equipment. Like maybe 17L for an 11 L batch? BIAB, strain into fermenter, bang. You'd be able to chill in the kitchen sink then too, wouldn't have to bother with cubing the wort or buying a chiller or any other expensive gear.[/quote']

You're right, you can use the bare minimum of equipment. For BIAB you really want your mash / boil vessel to be double your target fermenter volume to give you enough headroom to avoid boilovers and to let you brew higher gravity beers should you get the inclination. Simplest way of all is to BIAB in the kettle, don't sparge, boil and then no-chill in the kettle, ie pop the lid on at the end of the boil and let it cool overnight. You could do an initial cooling in the sink to drop the temp down to 80C to minimise unexpected extra bitterness from late hops if you like.

 

I, on the other hand use a 38 litre mash tun for my no-sparge 11 litre all-grain batches, simply because I wanted plenty of volume headroom for high gravity beers. According to my calculations I can go up to something like a 1.150 OG if the need arises (with fairly terrible efficiency of course).

 

Good luck experimenting!

 

Cheers,

 

John

[Beervis]

I guess it depends on your situation and what you want from your brewing as to the batch sizes you brew. I'm not gonna say don't waste your time on small batches if that's what suits you' date=' I'll just offer a different viewpoint.

 

For me personally, an 11L output isn't worth doing a 5 or 6 hour all grain brew day for, especially if it's a beer or style you already know you enjoy drinking. It's just too much time input for too little results. Bring a couple of mates around and that could well be gone in a Saturday arvo/evening session. It's only just over a carton's worth after all.

 

For experimenting and learning how ingredients work together, it's a good idea because if it turns out not so good then you don't have a whole heap to struggle drinking/tip down the sink. If you like to have a million different beers to choose from and the time to brew them all, it also works.

 

The other reason it's too small for me now is because I use 19 litre kegs. On the other end of the scale, I don't need to be brewing 40,50, 80 litre batches either, so the 21/25 litre size suits my situation well. [/quote']

 

I'd have to agree with you generally around the volumes - some of the craft ROTM's I've made turned out to be pretty decent for kit beers and they don't last anywhere near long enough. I'm thinking of a certain mate with a rather insatiable appetite... I tend to hide a few of the ones I like the most for savouring later and keep the masses placated with less interesting 20/21/23L brews. So this would work for me because I still plan to be making kit brews in the large FV. Also I don't have a big enough vessel to do BIAB so it's mostly gonna be pretty simple extract stuff to start with and that really only adds an hour on a normal kit brew day.

 

I get your point though, 5 or 6 hours and all that thought and planning and everything for one measly carton,

 

The practicalities of inner city life are an issue too, in the little townhouse, I just don't have the space for lots of extra equipment, I can't do a boil outside, I can't fit in an extra fridge for lagering, limited temp appropriate storage room for bottles etc. So it works from that perspective.

In an ideal world I'd have a man cave about the size of this place

[DonPolo]

The practicalities of inner city life are an issue too' date=' in the little townhouse, I just don't have the space for lots of extra equipment, I can't do a boil outside, I can't fit in an extra fridge for lagering, limited temp appropriate storage room for bottles etc. So it works from that perspective.

In an ideal world I'd have a man cave about the size of this place [img']tongue[/img]

 

Sounds like my situation exactly. If I brewed in a 30L FV I wouldn't have anywhere to put the beer!

 

Plus if there is too much beer around I might just drink it and that is not good for me trying to keep hold of my girlish figure!

[Otto Von Blotto]

That's my point about differing situations leading to differing preferences and set ups. Nothing wrong with brewing small batches if that's all you are able to do. I'm not able to brew anything bigger than 25L or so - but I don't want or need to anyway so it's not a problem for me.

[Beervis]

The practicalities of inner city life are an issue too' date=' in the little townhouse, I just don't have the space for lots of extra equipment, I can't do a boil outside, I can't fit in an extra fridge for lagering, limited temp appropriate storage room for bottles etc. So it works from that perspective.

In an ideal world I'd have a man cave about the size of this place [img']tongue[/img]

 

Sounds like my situation exactly. If I brewed in a 30L FV I wouldn't have anywhere to put the beer!

 

Plus if there is too much beer around I might just drink it and that is not good for me trying to keep hold of my girlish figure!

 

That's a tough one hey I've found drinking in moderation is a useful tool to have as a brewer (well probably necessary!!) because I can build up stocks without being tempted to drink stuff before it's aged enough and can keep a few different flavours around without them getting demolished in a week or two .

 

Each to their own like you say Kelsey, but for me that's kinda an argument against kegs as well, it'd be just there, pre-chilled, delicious and foamy and easy to pour - it'd be harder to keep that willpower going. I find not having a bunch of bottles in the fridge means I know I have to wait for a few hours and that stops me going overboard.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Yeah, I was the same about kegs but once the initial novelty of having beer on tap at home wore off, I just went back to normal again. I also have the incentive that not drinking it too quickly means I don't have to buy beer.

 

At first I did drink more than I usually would because I'd pour a good one and be all how good's this, then drink it quickly so I could pour another one just to make sure it was still working properly . It does wear off though after a short while.

 

Overall, I'd never go back to bottling full time. Once I sort out a capper, I will brew 25L lager batches (instead of the current 21L size for keg only) and bottle the surplus from them, but that's only 12-14 stubbies every 3 batches, not 60-70 per batch...