Differences between OS, International and Thomas Cooper's Cans?

[DonPolo]

iI there anything outstandingly different between the various ‘lines’ ? I.e. Original Series, International Series and Thomas Cooper Series? I'd love to know if there is a resource somewhere that outlines exactly what is in the cans themselves. Things like type of hops, malts etc and what is the ‘manual’ equivalent of their processing if you were making things up from scratch.

 

Then we'd be in a better position to justify the increased cost of the various kits.

 

Given that a lot on here brew from cans but had different malts, grains, hops etc, is there any point in buying the Thomas Cooper range for example except if you are just going for a quick brew?

[Otto Von Blotto]

One point of difference is that the yeasts vary in the International and TC ranges; in the OS range it's all the same yeast across all tins.

 

The OS tins don't contain any late hops, whereas some of the other ranges do. The pilsner for example has late Saaz, while the English Bitter features Styrian Goldings late. There are a couple of others as well with late Cascade additions.

 

I guess the base flavors of the different kits are different and even though you can probably replicate it somewhat with a more basic kit with grain and hop additions, you're probably not gonna get it exact. The information about what exactly is in the makeup of the kits isn't something that is available to the public as far as I'm aware.

[DonPolo]

Thanks Kelsey,

 

It's funny because by the time that I got into this a bit more I was already doing at least some dry hopping.

 

I guess I could just grab a couple of these cans and just make them to specifications and see what happens (although reluctantly).

 

I don't think I'd be using the Brew enhancers though, more likely to use 100% LDM

[PB2]

Brew Can: Yeast and Aroma Hop Details

 

The recommendation on the side of the can is aimed directly at those who want to make beer but want to keep it as simple as possible.

 

But I reckon it's worth "going the extra yards" and use the brew cans as per our RECIPES.

[Beervis]

There are heaps and heaps of extract and partial mash type recipes all over the place if you want to make certain styles from scratch.

 

I've had a harder time finding very simple extract recipes but they are around if you look hard enough. Like I've been googling stuff like 'cheapest extract recipe' . Some of the partial mash extract brews are so complicated you may as well go all grain I reckon.

 

Anyhow, onto the kits, I've been brewing exclusively ROTM's apart from a couple of deliberately cheap brews this year, and I've found them to be by and large great beers. One of my craft beer snob friends was a little hard to convert but even he thought one of the IPA's tasted like a commercial quality brew. Some are better than others of course. But the Thomas Cooper series were designed to fit into the craft beer market as a kit and kilo alternative to expensive craft beer, and IMO they do that pretty well. Even just the IPA with 500gms LDM and 300gms DEX was quite drinkable. Obvs they're heaps better with a hop boil and steeped grains which is pretty much the ROTM method.

 

From what I can gather people only really seem to use the OS for deliberately cheap brews or in toucans.

 

One thing I would like to know, does anyone have any experience with the international series Euro lager? It has a lager yeast, wondering if the instructions say to brew low temp. as in, is it a genuine lager... I feel like if so that could make an OK lawnmower beer.

[DonPolo]

Brew Can: Yeast and Aroma Hop Details

 

The recommendation on the side of the can is aimed directly at those who want to make beer but want to keep it as simple as possible.

 

But I reckon it's worth "going the extra yards" and use the brew cans as per our RECIPES.

 

Thanks PB2' date=' the link is brilliant and answers most of my questions. Those that it doesn't I understand about for commercial in confidence.

 

A couple of questions; what do the following underlined terms mean? "All of our brews are bittered with [u']PoR[/u] in the brewhouse. From time to time, the bitterness level may require an adjustment, which we do by squirting ISO directly into the can immediately prior to the filler.

 

And when you say you have a late hop addition, am I right in assuming that is done with a hop extract?

[Otto Von Blotto]

I did the Euro lager back in the day. It was ok but nothing special. Having said that, I've been making much nicer lagers since going full temp control and using proper yeast pitching volumes, so if that was done with the kit I think it would have turned out a lot nicer than it did. Maybe I'll make up another one one day to see if what I've learned in that time does indeed make a better brew from it.

 

PoR is just a hop variety Pride of Ringwood. It's used in pretty well all mainstream Australian commercial beers. Or was, a lot of them have moved to Super Pride these days. ISOHOP describes that better than I can.

 

 

[Beervis]

Yeah even with temp control I can't imagine the 7gms would do the trick. Seems like lagers need more from most of the recipes I've looked at. Might give it a try with some saaz and extra lager yeast and keep the temp down. I'm playing around with ideas for a cheap cupboard filler at the moment.

[Otto Von Blotto]

They do, the pitching rate for lagers is about double that of ales, probably because they're fermented at low temps and often pitched at those low temps as well. Also it gives that clean flavor because the yeast don't have to multiply as many times.

[ChristinaS1]

Yeah even with temp control I can't imagine the 7gms would do the trick. Seems like lagers need more from most of the recipes I've looked at. Might give it a try with some saaz and extra lager yeast and keep the temp down. I'm playing around with ideas for a cheap cupboard filler at the moment.

 

I have used the EuroLager kit several times. The kit is not very bitter. You might consider reducing the volume to 21L or so to increase the bitterness, as per the Green Neck Lager recipe in the recipe section. I have a theory it contains the same extract as the APA kit, but comes with pure lager yeast, and a bit of late hops.

 

In regards to the 7gm of lager yeast, no, it is not enough yeast. What I like to do with kit yeasts, if I only have one to work with, is make a Shaken Not Stirred starter with it.

 

https://club.coopers.com.au/coopers-forum/topic/16000/

 

In the case of a lager, a Shaken not Stirred starter would still result in an under-pitch and should not be pitched into cold wort, as it still has to do some replicating. Pitch it at 20C and then drop the temp to whatever you want after 12 hours or so.

 

Shaken not Stirred starters are quite easy and have saved me a heap of money over the years. Not sure about your LHBS, but mine charges couple of dollars more for dry lager yeast than for a package of ale yeast.

 

Cheers,

 

Christina.

[DonPolo]

There are heaps and heaps of extract and partial mash type recipes all over the place if you want to make certain styles from scratch.

 

I've had a harder time finding very simple extract recipes but they are around if you look hard enough. Like I've been googling stuff like 'cheapest extract recipe' . Some of the partial mash extract brews are so complicated you may as well go all grain I reckon.

 

Anyhow' date=' onto the kits, I've been brewing exclusively ROTM's apart from a couple of deliberately cheap brews this year, and I've found them to be by and large great beers. One of my craft beer snob friends was a little hard to convert but even he thought one of the IPA's tasted like a commercial quality brew. Some are better than others of course. But the Thomas Cooper series were designed to fit into the craft beer market as a kit and kilo alternative to expensive craft beer, and IMO they do that pretty well. Even just the IPA with 500gms LDM and 300gms DEX was quite drinkable. Obvs they're heaps better with a hop boil and steeped grains which is pretty much the ROTM method.

 

From what I can gather people only really seem to use the OS for deliberately cheap brews or in toucans.

 

One thing I would like to know, does anyone have any experience with the international series Euro lager? It has a lager yeast, wondering if the instructions say to brew low temp. as in, is it a genuine lager... I feel like if so that could make an OK lawnmower beer.[/quote']

 

I effectively did a toucan by using a Euro can + 500g LDm in a 15L FV and 12g of galaxy late hopped. Isn’t too bad in a light IPA sort of way bitter but not unpleasant. I fermented it in the range of 18-20C. I don’t think that it is a true lager yeast.

 

PS what is a ROTM?

[porschemad911]

From what I can gather people only really seem to use the OS for deliberately cheap brews or in toucans.

The OS Lager kit is particularly maligned. However it is 100% pale malt and a moderate level of bitterness, which makes it a great value base for a wide range of beer styles with additional malts, hops and yeast strains. For example I recently used it with additional specialty malt, hops and yeast to make 11 litres of India Brown Saison in my little Coopers Craft fermenter.

 

If you don't mind spending an extra couple of $, the Mexican Cerveza is the lightest possible base in terms of bitterness and colour and the Australian Pale Ale has similar bitterness with a touch of wheat and crystal malt in its makeup. I will soon be using the Australian Pale Ale kit with 500g LDM, specialty malts and reactivated Coopers Commercial Ale yeast to make 11 litres of Coopers Best Extra Stout 'clone'.

 

Cheers,

 

John

[Otto Von Blotto]

In the case of a lager' date=' a Shaken not Stirred starter would still result in an under-pitch and should not be pitched into cold wort, as it still has to do some replicating. Pitch it at 20C and then drop the temp to whatever you want after 12 hours or so.

 

Shaken not Stirred starters are quite easy and have saved me a heap of money over the years. Not sure about your LHBS, but mine charges couple of dollars more for dry lager yeast than for a package of ale yeast.

 

Cheers,

 

Christina.[/quote']Even if you pitch the right amount of lager yeast, it still has to go through the replicating phase . I like to pitch my lagers cold, but it doesn't always work out that way unfortunately.

 

The dry lager yeast is more expensive than dry ale yeast here as well, which is actually what got me into making starters in the first place (buy one pack per batch and build it up instead of buying two or three). Interestingly, the Wyeast liquid yeast smack packs are the same price for all strains other than the Brett and Pediococcus strains which are more expensive.

[Beervis]

 

I effectively did a toucan by using a Euro can + 500g LDm in a 15L FV and 12g of galaxy late hopped. Isn’t too bad in a light IPA sort of way bitter but not unpleasant. I fermented it in the range of 18-20C. I don’t think that it is a true lager yeast.

 

PS what is a ROTM?

 

I've been meaning to try a few experiments like that' date=' only I've got such a big backlog of ingredients I haven't had a free fermentor for ages. ROTM = Recipe of the Month. You can see them up above right at the top of the thread. They do free shipping, and come with different hops, grains and other bits and bobs each time. It's a really easy no fuss training wheels firmly attached way of learning more about brewing I find. Also the Coopers team seem to go to a lot of work fiddling with these recipes and trying to find interesting combinations of hops and spec grains. Nice of them to do the work for me [img']biggrin[/img]

 

They do tend to sell out really quick though, one issue.

[Beervis]

 

In regards to the 7gm of lager yeast' date=' no, it is not enough yeast. What I like to do with kit yeasts, if I only have one to work with, is make a Shaken Not Stirred starter with it.

 

https://club.coopers.com.au/coopers-forum/topic/16000/

 

In the case of a lager, a Shaken not Stirred starter would still result in an under-pitch and should not be pitched into cold wort, as it still has to do some replicating. Pitch it at 20C and then drop the temp to whatever you want after 12 hours or so.

 

[/quote']

 

Thanks for the tip Christina, I'll have a look at the shaken not stirred method. I'm too lazy to wait for the temp to drop that low before pitching, so I won't have any trouble there. I've made a bock and a couple of pilsners to recipe instructions, and they've all turned out nice dry pitching 2 packs of yeast and then brewing low temp. At the moment I'm more concerned with experimenting than saving money, but I can see how yeast starters/harvesting would be a huge budget boon down the road. I've got so much packet yeast at the moment I'm thinking I'll have to start making soda to use it all before it goes bad. I reckon that's a perfect use of kit yeast, sour home made lemonade.

 

Paul

[Beervis]

The OS Lager kit is particularly maligned. However it is 100% pale malt and a moderate level of bitterness' date=' which makes it a great value base for a wide range of beer styles with additional malts, hops and yeast strains. For example I recently used it with additional specialty malt, hops and yeast to make 11 litres of India Brown Saison in my little Coopers Craft fermenter.

 

If you don't mind spending an extra couple of $, the Mexican Cerveza is the lightest possible base in terms of bitterness and colour and the Australian Pale Ale has similar bitterness with a touch of wheat and crystal malt in its makeup. I will soon be using the Australian Pale Ale kit with 500g LDM, specialty malts and reactivated Coopers Commercial Ale yeast to make 11 litres of Coopers Best Extra Stout 'clone'.

[/quote']

 

Do you have the recipe for that Saison handy John? sounds delicious. I've been reading heaps of home brew stuff lately and I feel like kits get an undeserved bad rap. Like I think if you stood in the town square in Portland and yelled 'pre-hopped malt extract!' you'd probably get deported. But that's all it is, pre hopped extract, it's not an insidious ploy to ruin good beer everywhere. And provided you know what you're doing those kits as a base are generally cheaper than malt extract. I suppose that's what the Coopers recipes are setting out to prove, that adding a hop boil and spec grains and some love can produce decent beer, if that's your thing. Do you do a full extract boil and add the kit as a late extract addition? or just boil the kit as well? I've read that boiling kits doesn't do anything much to them except drive off late hop aroma (if there was any there in the first place) and if you're adding your own hops that's obviously not an issue anyway.

 

Paul

[Otto Von Blotto]

Boiling kits is pointless because the contents are already sterile/sanitary, but it's also not a very good practice anyway. It will affect the balance of the beer (bitterness vs maltiness). I wouldn't even bother adding the kit as a late boil addition - just use the boiled wort to dissolve it in the FV in place of water.

 

I don't believe a well brewed kit beer will ever be better than a well brewed AG beer, because you simply can't achieve the level of freshness of flavor with kits and extracts that you get from a full grain mash and boil. Someone brought a few bottles of home brew to a party I was at a while ago, and straight away I could taste that it came from a kit.

 

However, a well brewed kit beer will be better than a poorly brewed AG beer, and it will still produce a great tasting drop so I don't think kits deserve the crap they get either. I reckon the thing that ruins most of them is the shitty amount of yeast they come with and fermenting them too high, along with using a lot of sucrose or dextrose with them. Those sorts of things don't produce great beer.

[Beervis]

Boiling kits is pointless because the contents are already sterile/sanitary' date=' but it's also not a very good practice anyway. It will affect the balance of the beer (bitterness vs maltiness). I wouldn't even bother adding the kit as a late boil addition - just use the boiled wort to dissolve it in the FV in place of water.

 

I don't believe a well brewed kit beer will ever be better than a well brewed AG beer, because you simply can't achieve the level of freshness of flavor with kits and extracts that you get from a full grain mash and boil. Someone brought a few bottles of home brew to a party I was at a while ago, and straight away I could taste that it came from a kit.

 

However, a well brewed kit beer will be better than a poorly brewed AG beer, and it will still produce a great tasting drop so I don't think kits deserve the crap they get either. I reckon the thing that ruins most of them is the shitty amount of yeast they come with and fermenting them too high, along with using a lot of sucrose or dextrose with them. Those sorts of things don't produce great beer.[/quote']

 

I agree, I mean no one can make a good beer with a tin and a box of BE1 + kit yeast fermented in the garage in summer at 26 degrees. I've done that multiple times and they were all terrible without exception. Funnily enough the OS lager was the nicer out of those experiments.

I think this is probably why beginner kits in the USA tend to focus on extract and steeping grains and just steer away from kits. Like if you're an absolute beginner, lets start you at an acceptable minimum with a better chance of making a decent beer and not have you off making toucans and buying boxes of magic brew powder.

 

At the same time though, like you say kits and bits can be well made, and all grain brewing isn't as easy as some people make it out to be, and is also more expensive (initially) and involves more space and more work. I guess it depends what you think 'good beer' is. If you think Corona is good beer then a can of OS lager with 1kg of LDM brewed at temp control with enough yeast and then kegged and chugged at a pissup will probably be good beer for you... and so on.

 

It's like anything to do with 'quality' and 'value' where humans are concerned. Classical music fans want to be able to prove that the music they like is somehow objectively superior, but it can't be done. It might be more complicated, and take place somewhere nice, where they don't serve Corona, but objectively it isn't any better than a bluegrass jug band or the guys covering Oasis at the local. It's just a matter of preference.

 

Thanks for the tips re boiling the kit. I'd never do it myself but I've read conflicting things about that. I've even seen some brewers doing the full boil just with hops, and then adding all the extract as a bulk late addition. I thought wtf but I guess if you want a lighter looking beer, that could work.

[Beervis]

Forgot to add, I think it's fair to say that the proliferation of ex-brewers around the place probably has something to do with shittily made kits. I mean if your first brew was one of the ROTM's brewed with temp control, you wouldn't be wanting to dump your beginners setup on the curb.

[DonPolo]

I've been meaning to try a few experiments like that' date=' only I've got such a big backlog of ingredients I haven't had a free fermentor for ages. ROTM = Recipe of the Month. You can see them up above right at the top of the thread. They do free shipping, and come with different hops, grains and other bits and bobs each time. It's a really easy no fuss training wheels firmly attached way of learning more about brewing I find. Also the Coopers team seem to go to a lot of work fiddling with these recipes and trying to find interesting combinations of hops and spec grains. Nice of them to do the work for me [img']biggrin[/img]

 

They do tend to sell out really quick though, one issue.

 

Thanks Beervis, good advice. The Wit is, as you predicted now sold out. I looked at the Craft ROTM (ta for the explanation), The Golden One, and it looks interesting, as is it's pricing @$39. It has 'free delivery' but if you cost out the individual ingredients and can get some of them elsewhere (because you can't buy the yeast or hops from Coopers) I came up with an overall prices of $32.60.

 

Of course you can't buy the can's or the extract individually without paying postage and it is fair enough that there is an extra labour cost to Coopers for sourcing the yeast and the hop - but just saying.

 

Also it only produces 8.5L @ the advertised ABV of 6.5%. I'd be more inclined to make it up to 11L for a more sessionable ABV around 4.6% or perhaps had some LDM to keep the ABV up to the original.

 

What do you think?

[Otto Von Blotto]

I dunno... I don't really listen to classical music but I do believe it takes far more musical skill to compose and/or play it than Oasis songs . You're talking a lot of intricate pieces from multiple instruments all intertwined to sound perfect with each other, versus 3 or 4 guitar chords repeated for a few minutes. I certainly respect it, because a fair bit of the metal I listen to has similar structures and the musicians are often classically trained. At the same time, something could be highly complicated and sound like rubbish, it all depends on the skill of the creator.

 

In terms of brewing I would say the brewers of beers like Corona are very skilled as well. The beer might be boring but they have to consistently churn out the exact same product every batch. I'm sure if they were given a recipe for a more interesting beer they'd brew that well too.

 

In terms of what different people enjoy, that's a different thing. Everyone thinks what they like is the best and what they don't like is rubbish, that's just the way humans are.

[Beervis]

I dunno... I don't really listen to classical music but I do believe it takes far more musical skill to compose and/or play it than Oasis songs . You're talking a lot of intricate pieces from multiple instruments all intertwined to sound perfect with each other' date=' versus 3 or 4 guitar chords repeated for a few minutes. I certainly respect it, because a fair bit of the metal I listen to has similar structures and the musicians are often classically trained. At the same time, something could be highly complicated and sound like rubbish, it all depends on the skill of the creator.

 

In terms of brewing I would say the brewers of beers like Corona are very skilled as well. The beer might be boring but they have to consistently churn out the exact same product every batch. I'm sure if they were given a recipe for a more interesting beer they'd brew that well too.

 

In terms of what different people enjoy, that's a different thing. Everyone thinks what they like is the best and what they don't like is rubbish, that's just the way humans are. [/quote']

 

I agree with you, I just think because of that last point you make, it's pretty well impossible to quantify anything on matters of taste. Like I think AG brews are gonna be better than kits, even though I've never done an AG brew before, and I'm sure there would be countless pages of arguments about why that's the case. And it's a given that it takes more skill to make it well. But you'd never be able to prove that those brews are objectively better to someone who was happy with their OS Lager + BE1 if they didn't see any reason to change. You could present them with a trailer load of data and arguments, but in the end it's just a matter of taste. That's the point I was getting at with the classical music comparison. Maybe XXXX Gold is Australia's most popular beer because people really f&*king love it, although I'm sticking to my belief which is that it's some sort of conspiracy to brainwash people into enjoying bad beer

Sorry, this turned into a long winded philosophical defense of kit beer, which is essentially pointless considering no one on this forum is threatening to evict extract brewers for not being 'real' brewers. Think I need a beer

[Beervis]

Thanks Beervis' date=' good advice. The Wit is, as you predicted now sold out. I looked at the Craft ROTM (ta for the explanation), The Golden One, and it looks interesting, as is it's pricing @$39. It has 'free delivery' but if you cost out the individual ingredients and can get some of them elsewhere (because you can't buy the yeast or hops from Coopers) I came up with an overall prices of $32.60.

 

Of course you can't buy the can's or the extract individually without paying postage and it is fair enough that there is an extra labour cost to Coopers for sourcing the yeast and the hop - but just saying.

 

Also it only produces 8.5L @ the advertised ABV of 6.5%. I'd be more inclined to make it up to 11L for a more sessionable ABV around 4.6% or perhaps had some LDM to keep the ABV up to the original.

 

What do you think?[/quote']

 

Yeah, they aren't always cheap in pure cost terms vs buying the ingredients elsewhere, but I've been approaching them like a lucky dip, I just buy it when I feel like trying something different and then see what I think. So for me it's about experimenting and convenience, more than anything. Different hop combinations, etc.

 

I tend to agree with you about the volume. I usually have 2 fermentors going at once, 1 craft size and 1 full size, I can fit them both in my brew fridge. Unfortunately, I can't fit them both in with the craft krausen collar on, so I've been brewing higher ABV 'craft' beers in the craft tub and normal strength beer in the big tub. But there's been more than a few times I've either wanted to scale one of the craft recipes up to 23L because it was so good, or dilute it a bit to make it more sessionable.

 

I guess I could just add extra pre-boiled water to the craft fermentor at bottling time? Or would that be too risky.

 

Any advice on scaling those recipes up? I'd have no trouble with the hops/malt, it's just with the craft kits being a different size, and not being in the brewing software, just not sure how to keep the flavour balance right.

[Otto Von Blotto]

All you have to do is work out how much bigger the scaled up volume is compared to the old volume as a percentage and apply that percentage increase to all the ingredient additions.

 

I think XXXX Gold is the best selling beer because of marketing and a lot of people's reluctance to try something different to what they've grown accustomed to, because it certainly isn't the flavor or lack thereof)

 

You're right in that you can provide all this data and commentary and shit and it doesn't really mean anything, but if you get old mate who's been brewing his OS Lager and sugar or whatever at 30 degrees to actually taste something else brewed with small grain and hop additions under proper temp control, there's always a chance he might enjoy that more and strive to brew something similar rather than go back to the old brews.

 

I used to drink all that megaswill stuff back in the day; I tried a Nine Tales at Murphy's in the city one night purely because it was a different color and from then on I was hooked on the more flavorful beers.

[Beervis]

I suppose the easiest way would be to triple all ingredients up from 8.5L to 25.5L and use the collar, would end up being a pretty expensive beer to make. Could probably make an extract version for cheaper that would have a similar flavour profile.

 

I've noticed that's what Mr Beer does in the states, they sell the Coopers 6 gallon fermentor, 30L whatever it is, but not the 1.7kg kits, so they ship all their 19/23L brews with 3 of the craft cans and some BE/grain/hop additions. That would be the easiest way, but I'm sure two cans plus extra malt and hops with a bit of fiddling would make an equally nice brew for a bit cheaper. And a bit more sessionable to boot. Could make it to 19L for example just with an extra kit can and maybe scaling up the hops a bit. I might try that I think for first experiment, then see how alcoholic it turns out and how it tastes.

 

You'd like to hope that the taste test method is changing opinions... and I'd say it certainly is, given the success smaller breweries are having selling up to the big boys at the moment. But I think it'll take a while for our culture to change and catch up. There are plenty of ppl out there who've tried more flavourful beers but prefer the megaswill. There's always guys on the forums trying to make megaswill clones for example... I sometimes wonder how we went from being an English colony, that presumably imported nice beer brewing skills from the motherland, to a country that produces some of the worst commercial beer I've tried. It probably happened gradually, as companies adapted their recipes to cut costs and take advantage of tax arrangements that favour swill. I still remember when Pure Blonde first came out, some of my mates were raving about it, and I tried some and thought shit! It's getting worse! It's actually getting worse! Well it's not an issue anymore, I don't have to drink it, I can make something better and cheaper at home