third brew, first %7.2 abv belgian ale ;)

[amberfiend]

started my first brew this afternoon, its a munton belgian ale kit. apparently i will end up with about 21 litres at %7.2 abv, was only $30 so i cant see how im going to go wrong here ? i did have to buy another fermenter though which will no doubt come in handy in the years to come.

thought i would share the recipe here, and keep you guys in the loop with how its going

the only thing that has me scratching my head at this point in the process is the part where after siphoning the first fermentation into the the second fermenter for the second stage of fermentation, i am suposed to scoop half a cup of the yeast (lees) from the first fermentation vat into the second to help with the last stage of the process.. thing is ? the packet of 6g saison yeast was only tiny ? will this small amount of yeast actually breed and multiply in the fermenter over the next 5 days to acually fill half a cup ?

 

the lighter one is a hoppy pale ale that seems to be doing pretty well currently, the darker one is the belgian ale i started this afternoon

 

 

 

 

Edited September 1, 2020 by amberfiend

[Pickles Jones]

I don't know,  let us know in 5 days, I think that's about Sunday!!

[Lab Cat]

Syphoning into a 2nd fermenter isn't necessary. You'll find barely any brewers here do it, as there seems no logic to doing so. It'll ferment out in one FV so why move it to another?

Can't help on the yeast. 6g seems puny to get through enough fermentable sugars to produce 7% abv, but you haven't told us how much fermentables you've used.

I've just put on a Belgian with Kit, BE3 and 1.5kg tin of liquid malt, it has two Safale brand yeasts added, but part of that is for the yeasts to impart flavour, which what makes them Belgian.

Edited September 1, 2020 by Lab Cat

[Shamus O'Sean]

I have just re-read the instructions and understand them better.  This is a two stage fermentation.  Stage 1 is with the two brew cans in the kit and the 6g of yeast (it still does sound like a small amount).  Stage 2 is; once that ferment is done, transfer to a second fermenter, add some Light Dry Malt, then chuck in some of the yeast cake from the first fermenter.

The first ferment will give you a yeast cake that you can get a half cup of yeast from.  It will be mixed with other trub materials, but will contain enough yeast to finish out the brew.

That is how such a small amount of yeast can produce a 7%+ beer.  6g would struggle to ferment the whole volume of fermentables in one step.  It is even a small amount for the two cans.  In hindsight I would have hydrated the yeast to give it the best chance to do well.

I am not sure it is absolutely necessary to transfer to a second fermenter.  Maybe you could just add the LDM to the first fermenter and the yeast would still kick-off with the fresh fermentables.  I have never done this, so do not know.  Others on here will have and hopefully will give you some feedback.

 

[amberfiend]

3 hours ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

"I am not sure it is absolutely necessary to transfer to a second fermenter.  Maybe you could just add the LDM to the first fermenter and the yeast would still kick-off with the fresh fermentables.  I have never done this, so do not know."

 

that was my thoughts exactly, seems like a lot of extra effort yeah, i do have another barrel ready to go though and i could always use the coopers fv to get my next brew rocking, thinking of doing a whit beer

*oh and the yeast does seem to multiplying, early days though at this point so whether it adds up to half a cup is yet to be seen ?

[amberfiend]

12 hours ago, Lab Cat said:

Syphoning into a 2nd fermenter isn't necessary. You'll find barely any brewers here do it, as there seems no logic to doing so. It'll ferment out in one FV so why move it to another?

Can't help on the yeast. 6g seems puny to get through enough fermentable sugars to produce 7% abv, but you haven't told us how much fermentables you've used.

I've just put on a Belgian with Kit, BE3 and 1.5kg tin of liquid malt, it has two Safale brand yeasts added, but part of that is for the yeasts to impart flavour, which what makes them Belgian.

the kit comes with 500gm of light spray malt which is to be introduced with half a cup of the yeast sediment from the first fermenter in the second phase of the brewing. the only advantage i could think of at this point for transferring into another fermenter is that it will free up my coppers fv to start another brew

[amberfiend]

basically right now i have a belgian ale just ticking over its 6th day in the fermenter. according to the recipe it should now be hovering somewhere steadily around the 1014 mark but instead its been at 1022 for the last few days, down from the OG of 1042-43ish. its at this point that they recommend i transfer it into a second fermentation vat and add light spray malt and some of the original yeast from the bottom of the first fermenter and leave it for another 6 or so days until it drops down to around to a FG of 1006. with the expected end result to be around %7.2abv.

at this point im kind of stuck on what i should do ? i suspect it is a slow fermentation due to temps but im too inexperienced at this stage to know for sure ? part of me thinks that maybe i should let it go for another 2-3 days to see what happens ? right now when i look at the fv closely i can see lots of yeast activity going on still yeah and i suspect if i let it go a little longer i might see it clear up a little before taking it onto the second fermentation phase where i add the spray malt and let it chew through that to achieve the last pump of alcohol production.

i would be interested to hear what anybody reading this thread would speculate is potentially going on here ? on also what you may or may not do at this point regarding on what the origional instructions suggest ?

[amberfiend]

now at day 8 of the first stage, the sample in the hydrometer taken two days ago is finally dropping down around 1014, so it looks like those extra few days left to ferment for the first stage might have been a good idea after all. i might leave it for one more day and then move onto the next stage .

im pretty tempted at this point to just add the light dry spraymalt into the first stage fermenter rather than transfer it into a second fermenter for the last stage of fermentation..

would anybody here care to speculate on might potential negative outcomes could arise from doing that ? it almost seems like there would be less disturbance to the brew doing it that way although there might be more yeast than the half cup that is recommended to take from the first stage of the fermentation to add to the second stage with the light dry spray malt, whether that would cause any issues i dont know at my level of experience with all this ?

[Shamus O'Sean]

@amberfiend, My advice is to follow the recipe and method the first time around.  I know I mentioned previously, that I am not sure you need to go to a second fermenter.  However, if it is clean and you sanitise it well, this risk is very low.

I can see benefits whichever way you go.

If you stick with the one fermenter, a slight concern in my mind is, if the yeast has "gone to sleep" in the first fermenter, will it wake up when you add in the 500g of spraymalt (I assume this is Light Dry Malt)?  I guess it should, like when you bottle your beer into bottles with sugar or carbonation drops:  The yeast has to wake up again to go through secondary fermentation and carbonate your beer.

If you stick with one fermenter, I do not think that your possible concern about the yeast from the first stage being too much for the second stage will be an issue. 

A concern with adding yeast to a brew that contains alcohol is that some yeasts do not like an alcohol-environment.  However, whether you go with one fermenter or into a secondary, the yeast involved is already "familiar" with the brew and its alcohol level, so should be okay.

Not sure I am helping with my comments.

My theory is:  If you transfer to a second fermenter, then add your spraymalt, then follow-up with your half cup of yeast-cake, you are kind of replicating the original brew and saying to the yeast you add: Here's something fresh and new so go to it girls and boys.

I will be very interested to hear how this one turns out.

[amberfiend]

10 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

@amberfiend, My advice is to follow the recipe and method the first time around.  I know I mentioned previously, that I am not sure you need to go to a second fermenter.  However, if it is clean and you sanitise it well, this risk is very low.

I can see benefits whichever way you go.

If you stick with the one fermenter, a slight concern in my mind is, if the yeast has "gone to sleep" in the first fermenter, will it wake up when you add in the 500g of spraymalt (I assume this is Light Dry Malt)?  I guess it should, like when you bottle your beer into bottles with sugar or carbonation drops:  The yeast has to wake up again to go through secondary fermentation and carbonate your beer.

If you stick with one fermenter, I do not think that your possible concern about the yeast from the first stage being too much for the second stage will be an issue. 

A concern with adding yeast to a brew that contains alcohol is that some yeasts do not like an alcohol-environment.  However, whether you go with one fermenter or into a secondary, the yeast involved is already "familiar" with the brew and its alcohol level, so should be okay.

Not sure I am helping with my comments.

My theory is:  If you transfer to a second fermenter, then add your spraymalt, then follow-up with your half cup of yeast-cake, you are kind of replicating the original brew and saying to the yeast you add: Here's something fresh and new so go to it girls and boys.

I will be very interested to hear how this one turns out.

yeah i agree, i think being introduced to and that new fuel to chew through will give the yeast a second wind, or at least it seems that is what the creators of the recipe are suggesting ? i will definitely report back here on the progress of the brew as it moves along

[amberfiend]

quick update,,

transferred the brew into second fermenter earlier today using a siphon tube, everything seemed to go smoothly.. the yeast in the first fermenter kind of got mixed in with some of the remaining wort so out of the slurry i scooped a whole cups worth rather than the half cup suggested in the print out that came with the kit. added the light spray malt carefully but as soon as it started to make contact with the wort a two inch layer of foam puffed right up of the worts surface while i tried to gently stir the malt in without oxygenating the wort, it basically collapsed and turned into a thing layer of foam almost as quickly which surprised me ? anyway put the fermenter in its new place which is basically my living room lol. i also cut a metre and a half of black fabric of a roll i had laying around and created a cloak to wrap around the fermenter to block the ambient  light from shining on it, now it looks like a short and stubby sith lord sitting on the desk ;).  it will get a slightly higher temp in its new spot, when the heaters on it will heat up to around 25 degrees but the thermometer strip in the fermenter was registering 22.5. i only put the heater on about twice a day for an hour or so at a time so not sure how these spikes in ambient tempreture will affect things ? dont a bedtime check on it ten minutes ago and the layer of foam on top now is getting that coffee coloured tint so it looks like the fermentation is re commencing now, will be interesting to see how it looks in the morning yeah ? anyway, took a few dull pics just to embelish the story lol, will let you all know if anything else interesting happens over the next few days ?

*oh and the gravity reading before i transferred the wort was now down to 1011, lower than the 1014 i was waiting for, so it will probably hit the expected low of 1006 pretty soon if this yeast really kicks off

 

[Shamus O'Sean]

Looks and sounds good.

The foaming up was probably CO2 trapped in solution, that was released by the nucleation points created by the grains of Spraymalt.

Adding the Spraymalt will have raised your SG by a few points.  Fermenting the Spraymalt will drop the SG back down again and create more alcohol.  I am not sure how low your SG will get to.

Because of this two stage fermentation I do not think you can calculate your ABV based on Original Gravity (OG) and Final Gravity (FG).  You will have to calculate the OG assuming all of the ingredients were added at the start.  Then use your measured FG to calculate the ABV.

[amberfiend]

1 hour ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

Looks and sounds good.

The foaming up was probably CO2 trapped in solution, that was released by the nucleation points created by the grains of Spraymalt.

Adding the Spraymalt will have raised your SG by a few points.  Fermenting the Spraymalt will drop the SG back down again and create more alcohol.  I am not sure how low your SG will get to.

Because of this two stage fermentation I do not think you can calculate your ABV based on Original Gravity (OG) and Final Gravity (FG).  You will have to calculate the OG assuming all of the ingredients were added at the start.  Then use your measured FG to calculate the ABV.

woah, im going to have to re read that man lol, maths wasnt my strong point as a kid, although i think i know what your getting at. i should have taken another reading after adding the spraymalt i guee

*one small detail i forgot to include in that last update was the taste, it definitely was noticeably more on the bitter side at this point. so it will be interesting to see if the spraymalt swings that slightly back in the other direction and introduces any sweetness and balance ? the other part of this i guess could be the effects of bottling time and how that may effect flavour and character, but because i have no experience to base that on its only speculation at this point ?

*oh and peeked in through the fermenter lid ten minutes ago and the foam up top is looking mottled so im pretty sure that yeast is going to war in there

Edited September 11, 2020 by amberfiend

[amberfiend]

2 hours ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

Because of this two stage fermentation I do not think you can calculate your ABV based on Original Gravity (OG) and Final Gravity (FG).  You will have to calculate the OG assuming all of the ingredients were added at the start.  Then use your measured FG to calculate the ABV.

is there a simple way to calculate the new SG by saying for instance ?

i have 22 litres of wort at FG 1011 and now intend to add 500grams of spraymalt ? which equals ?? in order to establish a new SG for calculating the final stage of fermentation ?

or if i just follow the written instructions and wait for the gravity to reach FG 1006 will that mean i have an approximate %7.2 abv as the kit suggested would be the final outcome ?

*if you mean re calculate all the ingredients thrown in from the very beginning, the kit just came with two unmarked cans, a bag of spraymalt and a sachet of yeast, im assuming one can was the belgian base extract, one can was probably some kind of malt extract etc. and being a little vague on the exact details it seems it might be hard to calculate that exactly anyway yeah ? urrgh im feeling a bit in over my head at this point lol

Edited September 11, 2020 by amberfiend

[Journeyman]

12 hours ago, amberfiend said:

it will heat up to around 25 degrees but the thermometer strip in the fermenter was registering 22.5. i only put the heater on about twice a day for an hour or so at a time so not sure how these spikes in ambient tempreture will affect things

Your FV has what is called thermal mass. An hour of minor heating to warm the room to comfort level will not do much at all to the brew. That mass takes TIME to warm or cool and the cloth will help a bit. If you want to be extra sure, get a blanket or sleeping bag and wrap that around the FV.

[amberfiend]

7 minutes ago, Journeyman said:

Your FV has what is called thermal mass. An hour of minor heating to warm the room to comfort level will not do much at all to the brew. That mass takes TIME to warm or cool and the cloth will help a bit. If you want to be extra sure, get a blanket or sleeping bag and wrap that around the FV.

it seems to be closer to 22 degrees in this room according to the thermometer strip, which seems to be within the suggested optimal range..its good to know that the minor fluctuating external tempratures wont be too much of an issue though, cheers man

[amberfiend]

finally decided to bottle this son of a b$%#h today. not really sure how i feel about this one yet ?

it may be my expectations were expecting something different and this is turning out exactly as its supposed to be ? or maybe i f$#@&d something up along the way ?

from the earliest tastes theres been a bitter thing thats immediately noticable, that has stayed through the course of the fermentation, right up to today when i decided to put it in bottles and out of sight for a while. final tastes before sending it to the bottle bin gave me bitter, fizzy, fruity, sour.. but my pallette is probably a bit amature when it comes to isolating and identifying distinct flavors associated with more high end beers lol.

anyway, ended up filling 64 x 330ml bottles. im kind of hoping that this will be one of those beers that gets better with time and ends up growing on me. because right now, although if given a few weeks to settle and served well chilled i would smash a few just out of civic duty, its not something i put put high on my list of preferences lol. i guess i can just view this as part of he getting to know brewing journey yeah.. anyway for all i know i might end up loving this after its been in the bottles doing its thing for 4-5 weeks ? time will tell yeah ?

anyway, a couple of dodgy pics to mark the occasion *used a coopers box actually to create a double layer ferment box, fits three slabs worth of 330ml bottles perfectly, shown in the pic is only the first layer. i bottled them in a mix of green and brown bottles, had a few slabs of washed brown bottles but they were for twist tops and i dont really trust them tbh

 

[Shamus O'Sean]

2 hours ago, amberfiend said:

anyway, ended up filling 64 x 330ml bottles. im kind of hoping that this will be one of those beers that gets better with time and ends up growing on me. because right now, although if given a few weeks to settle and served well chilled i would smash a few just out of civic duty, its not something i put put high on my list of preferences lol. i guess i can just view this as part of he getting to know brewing journey yeah.. anyway for all i know i might end up loving this after its been in the bottles doing its thing for 4-5 weeks ? time will tell yeah ?

Time could be your friend.  I had a brew a little while ago that that had a similar bitterness/sourness in the taste.  Bottled anyway. 2-3 weeks later opening and pouring with some concern, it turned out that bitterness/sourness was completely gone.  Ended up being a good beer.

Here's hoping for you.

[amberfiend]

1 hour ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

Time could be your friend.  I had a brew a little while ago that that had a similar bitterness/sourness in the taste.  Bottled anyway. 2-3 weeks later opening and pouring with some concern, it turned out that bitterness/sourness was completely gone.  Ended up being a good beer.

Here's hoping for you.

yeah im going to hope for the best. based on my inexperience i really dont know what i should be expecting at this point ? fingers crossed.

by the way the last gravity reading was 1005 even though that would seem to mean little anyway due to adding the spraymalt at second stage of fermentation ?

also the final 4 or so bottles got a little milkier due to the liquid coming out of the fermenter being so close to the trub, im certain this will settle in the bottles after a week or two but im wondering if this will likely add anything extra to the flavour of those bottles or possibly alter the flavour in a negative way ? do you have any experience with this kind of thing ?

[Journeyman]

That 'bitter' taste could very well be the high alcohol level. I've had a couple that I didn't really like the taste of at bottling and they smooth out. e.g. my 8.5% coffee stout I thought a failure, even at around 3 weeks in the bottle, although it had improved from the 9 days one I tried. But after 4 weeks it has gotten better and better. 

There were a lot of individual tastes happening along with a strong 'bite' that I presume was the ABV. SWMBO took a sip and said, "WOW! There's a lot going on in my mouth with this!" but those different flavours all blended together into a rich smooth and creamy stout that is one of the best I've had in many years of drinking stouts. It was definitely better by far than a coffee stout I had at Mrs Parmas in Melbourne that cost me $10 a pint about 7 years back.

Be patient padawan - it may not happen overnight but it will happen.

[amberfiend]

12 minutes ago, Journeyman said:

That 'bitter' taste could very well be the high alcohol level.

yep that is something that entered my mind upon swigs from the ye olde hydrometer tube i did make make me pay more attention to all the other subtle flavours that were lingering in the background, which i have to admit that as somebody who only got back into drinking this year after many years sober had kind of switched off from to a large degree, you kind of just get lazy and dont even think about it, if you buy a new brand and the first few sips taste ok you just settle into it and dont really pay it to much consideration. im quickly finding out that with brewing your own beer its an entirely new way of percieving beer and its so much more engaging, i suspect that in a year from now when im catching up with old friends for a beer i will be mr dictionary breath when it comes to discussing the character of the beer and the way its produced etc lol

*by the way, whats up with the coopers hydrometers, mine seemed crooked, its super frustrating yeah, have to constantly fiddle with it to feel like im averaging a decent reading.. i also let it sit in tapwater in the tube for the day on my kitchen bench the other day to see what kind of reading it would give in plain water and the gravity reading was 998 ? does that mean that all the readings i have been taking with my worts have all been inacurate ?

i think i will bite the bullet and buy a Refractometer from kegland next visit yeah

[Journeyman]

2 minutes ago, amberfiend said:

by the way, whats up with the coopers hydrometers, mine seemed crooked, its super frustrating yeah, have to constantly fiddle with it to feel like im averaging a decent reading.. i also let it sit in tapwater in the tube for the day on my kitchen bench the other day to see what kind of reading it would give in plain water and the gravity reading was 998 ? does that mean that all the readings i have been taking with my worts have all been inacurate ?

i think i will bite the bullet and buy a Refractometer from kegland next visit yeah

Some hydrometers measure 1.000 at 20° - my glass one has it written on the side, along with "Tom of Meniscus" but AFAIK Coopers ones will read 0.998 at 20°.

Not sure what you mean by 'crooked' though - I've compared the 2 of mine in the exact same sample and there is a 0.002 difference, but taking that into account they are giving the same reading.

A refractometer is only useful for the OG - as soon as the yeast goes to work you have to begin a guesswork calc, adjusting what you see on the refractometer to account for the amount of alcohol. I'm not sure how you can do that accurately without taking an SG reading with a hydro - without that it's a guess as to what the ABV level might be.

Maybe someone who uses one can help with just how that all works?

[amberfiend]

3 minutes ago, Journeyman said:

A refractometer is only useful for the OG - as soon as the yeast goes to work you have to begin a guesswork calc, adjusting what you see on the refractometer to account for the amount of alcohol. I'm not sure how you can do that accurately without taking an SG reading with a hydro - without that it's a guess as to what the ABV level might be.

it will be good to compare both readings for a while until everything takes on an instinctive familiarity i guess, the numbers dont seem to swing in a huge arc at all so it doesnt really seem to be based on ultra precise readings anyway ? although for all i know that 0000.5 difference could be huge ? lol

[Journeyman]

13 minutes ago, amberfiend said:

although for all i know that 0000.5 difference could be huge

Take a look at your hydro markings next time it's in the sample. At best our readings are +/- .001 on the Coopers one and it's actually worse on the glass one - mine only has 5 divisions between .010 & .020 so a reading is +/- .002.

Don't sweat it - by far the most important use for the SG readings is to tell you when the sugars are no longer being converted to ABV. i.e. when the ferment is done. The ABV is more a ball park figure; even the experts on here know their calculations are approximate and you'd have to do a chemical analysis to be sure of the ABV precisely.

[amberfiend]

5 minutes ago, Journeyman said:

Take a look at your hydro markings next time it's in the sample. At best our readings are +/- .001 on the Coopers one and it's actually worse on the glass one - mine only has 5 divisions between .010 & .020 so a reading is +/- .002.

Don't sweat it - by far the most important use for the SG readings is to tell you when the sugars are no longer being converted to ABV. i.e. when the ferment is done. The ABV is more a ball park figure; even the experts on here know their calculations are approximate and you'd have to do a chemical analysis to be sure of the ABV precisely.

cheers journey, that makes the best sense. im assuming to get a precise reading ou would probably have to invest in very expensive measuring equipment eh ?

as long as my beers come out over %5abv i'll be happy i guess lol