Barley Wine

[Aussiekraut]

I'm thinking of making a barley wine for the colder days ahead and maybe next year's as well and if I am really good, even the year after.

My aim is an ABV of around 10-12, lots of sweetness, mild bitterness, flavours of raisin and dried fruit and malty, biscuity flavours from the grains.

I'd like to make it a full batch if possible or at least close to it in order to get more loot  

I've been playing with the numbers a little and am currently sitting at 10.9% abv and a total grain bill of 10.5kg. Batch size is 20l, which will give me about 16l for bottling. Mash temp is 69C for an hour to ensure more residual sweetness. 

Rough numbers are atm:

7.5kg Voyager Veloria (instead of MO)
1kg Red X for more pronounced malt character and colour
1kg Light Crystal (colour and sweetness)
500g Caramunich II (colour and sweetness)
500g Carapils (never goes astray )

I'm planning on using Windsor yeast, using a 3l starter, as it should bring the right flavours to the party. As for hops, EGK is probably a good choice for this type of beer and maybe some Fuggle. I'm even considering adding rum-soaked raisins to the FV to intensify the dried fruit character and help mellow the alcohol sting out a bit.

I was contemplating a reiterated mash but that will just add an hour and a half to the brew day and since I have a 65l system, I don't need to go down this path. 

I've never made a barley wine and have no clue if this will work or if it'll just be a strong, dark ale.

Any suggestions are welcome. Malt, hops, yeast, all that may be useful to get me where I want to be. 

[iBooz2]

@Aussiekraut I think your choice of yeast is a good one, it will leave some good body in the beer and has an alcohol tolerance of 12% ABV.  Caramunich II malt I know well and agree with but drop the Carapils and add brown sugar to get ABV up IMO.  Disclaimer - I have never made a Barley Wine.  Good luck with your final recipe.  Look forward to your pics of the results.

Edited February 28 by iBooz2

[Pale Man]

10 hours ago, Aussiekraut said:

I'm thinking of making a barley wine for the colder days ahead and maybe next year's as well and if I am really good, even the year after.

My aim is an ABV of around 10-12, lots of sweetness, mild bitterness, flavours of raisin and dried fruit and malty, biscuity flavours from the grains.

I'd like to make it a full batch if possible or at least close to it in order to get more loot  

I've been playing with the numbers a little and am currently sitting at 10.9% abv and a total grain bill of 10.5kg. Batch size is 20l, which will give me about 16l for bottling. Mash temp is 69C for an hour to ensure more residual sweetness. 

Rough numbers are atm:

7.5kg Voyager Veloria (instead of MO)
1kg Red X for more pronounced malt character and colour
1kg Light Crystal (colour and sweetness)
500g Caramunich II (colour and sweetness)
500g Carapils (never goes astray )

I'm planning on using Windsor yeast, using a 3l starter, as it should bring the right flavours to the party. As for hops, EGK is probably a good choice for this type of beer and maybe some Fuggle. I'm even considering adding rum-soaked raisins to the FV to intensify the dried fruit character and help mellow the alcohol sting out a bit.

I was contemplating a reiterated mash but that will just add an hour and a half to the brew day and since I have a 65l system, I don't need to go down this path. 

I've never made a barley wine and have no clue if this will work or if it'll just be a strong, dark ale.

Any suggestions are welcome. Malt, hops, yeast, all that may be useful to get me where I want to be. 

Watching this carefully AK, id like to have a crack at this too.

[Shamus O'Sean]

11 hours ago, Aussiekraut said:

I'm thinking of making a barley wine for the colder days ahead and maybe next year's as well and if I am really good, even the year after.

My aim is an ABV of around 10-12, lots of sweetness, mild bitterness, flavours of raisin and dried fruit and malty, biscuity flavours from the grains.

I'd like to make it a full batch if possible or at least close to it in order to get more loot  

I've been playing with the numbers a little and am currently sitting at 10.9% abv and a total grain bill of 10.5kg. Batch size is 20l, which will give me about 16l for bottling. Mash temp is 69C for an hour to ensure more residual sweetness. 

Rough numbers are atm:

7.5kg Voyager Veloria (instead of MO)
1kg Red X for more pronounced malt character and colour
1kg Light Crystal (colour and sweetness)
500g Caramunich II (colour and sweetness)
500g Carapils (never goes astray )

I'm planning on using Windsor yeast, using a 3l starter, as it should bring the right flavours to the party. As for hops, EGK is probably a good choice for this type of beer and maybe some Fuggle. I'm even considering adding rum-soaked raisins to the FV to intensify the dried fruit character and help mellow the alcohol sting out a bit.

I was contemplating a reiterated mash but that will just add an hour and a half to the brew day and since I have a 65l system, I don't need to go down this path. 

I've never made a barley wine and have no clue if this will work or if it'll just be a strong, dark ale.

Any suggestions are welcome. Malt, hops, yeast, all that may be useful to get me where I want to be. 

I am certainly interested in following this one AK.  I have not made a Barley Wine.  So cannot offer much advice.  My biggest brews, both Triple IPA's, had Dextrose added.  A 10.2% had 1kg Dex and an 11% had 1.4kg Dex.  The 11% was also a reiterated mash brew, because my Grainfather G30 could not handle all the grain in one mash.  Plus you supposedly get better efficiency from 2 smaller 4-5kg mashes.  However, your 65L Brewzilla should handle it no worries.

[Aussiekraut]

Thanks for the input. 

I have removed the CaraPils and replaced it with 150g brown sugar as suggested by @iBooz2. This upped the ABV to 11% and increased IBU to 51 and BU/GU to 0.44. This shouldn't matter as the bitterness is needed to offset the sweetness of the finished product. Everything is within the specs of the style, except FG is estimated to be 1.031 and the specs say 1.030 max. Let's not nitpick  

Looking at other recipes and articles about English barley wines, I seem to be right with the choice of grains and hops. I'm not game to experiment with new world hops in this one and stick to the classics, although I could have thrown some Target or Northern Brewer into the mix. I should still have some of both but I think I'll keep it where it is.

The only thing that worries me a little is the water levels. I am planning a 20l batch instead of the usual 26l so with the 4l boil-off per hour, I need a pre-boil volume of 24l. Given I am using 10kg of grain and the typical grain absorption rate is about 0.6l/kg, I will need a mash volume of 30l. That will leave no room for a sparge. I don't think I can accommodate the grain in my usual 25l of mash water. Now with single vessel systems, just like with BIAB, a sparge isn't strictly necessary but I may lose some of the goodness in the grain without it and it may throw my numbers out a little. 

I still have a little time to think about things as I won't make this right away. There is a Pilsner kind of brew coming first and I need to get my supply delivery first. Maybe I'll do two brew days next week and keep them in the cube until the fermenters are available.

 

[iBooz2]

9 hours ago, Aussiekraut said:

Thanks for the input. 

I have removed the CaraPils and replaced it with 150g brown sugar as suggested by @iBooz2. This upped the ABV to 11% and increased IBU to 51 and BU/GU to 0.44. This shouldn't matter as the bitterness is needed to offset the sweetness of the finished product. Everything is within the specs of the style, except FG is estimated to be 1.031 and the specs say 1.030 max. Let's not nitpick  

Looking at other recipes and articles about English barley wines, I seem to be right with the choice of grains and hops. I'm not game to experiment with new world hops in this one and stick to the classics, although I could have thrown some Target or Northern Brewer into the mix. I should still have some of both but I think I'll keep it where it is.

The only thing that worries me a little is the water levels. I am planning a 20l batch instead of the usual 26l so with the 4l boil-off per hour, I need a pre-boil volume of 24l. Given I am using 10kg of grain and the typical grain absorption rate is about 0.6l/kg, I will need a mash volume of 30l. That will leave no room for a sparge. I don't think I can accommodate the grain in my usual 25l of mash water. Now with single vessel systems, just like with BIAB, a sparge isn't strictly necessary but I may lose some of the goodness in the grain without it and it may throw my numbers out a little. 

I still have a little time to think about things as I won't make this right away. There is a Pilsner kind of brew coming first and I need to get my supply delivery first. Maybe I'll do two brew days next week and keep them in the cube until the fermenters are available.

 

@Aussiekraut, don't forget that when you take out / or lift up the malt pipe with the spent grains you are probably also taking 6 L of mash water that has been absorbed in the grain bed.  That should give you enough for your sparge and you can then just sparge away until you hit your desired pre-boil volume.  Besides aren't you now using a 65 L system?

 

[Aussiekraut]

1 hour ago, iBooz2 said:

@Aussiekraut, don't forget that when you take out / or lift up the malt pipe with the spent grains you are probably also taking 6 L of mash water that has been absorbed in the grain bed.  That should give you enough for your sparge and you can then just sparge away until you hit your desired pre-boil volume.  Besides aren't you now using a 65 L system?

 

My problem isn't the size of the system but the size of the batch compared to the amount of grain. I'm planning on a 20l batch. The system has a 4l/h boiloff rate, so I need a pre-boil volume of 24l. At 6l loss to grain absorption, I need a 30l mash volume. That doesn't leave room for sparge water. I just have to let it all drip out for half an hour or so but I can't add fresh hot water to rinse more sugars out of the grain. If I make the batch bigger, I'll have to use more grain or lose ABV. I don't know how low I can go with the mash volume using 10kg grain.  

[iBooz2]

22 minutes ago, Aussiekraut said:

My problem isn't the size of the system but the size of the batch compared to the amount of grain. I'm planning on a 20l batch. The system has a 4l/h boiloff rate, so I need a pre-boil volume of 24l. At 6l loss to grain absorption, I need a 30l mash volume. That doesn't leave room for sparge water. I just have to let it all drip out for half an hour or so but I can't add fresh hot water to rinse more sugars out of the grain. If I make the batch bigger, I'll have to use more grain or lose ABV. I don't know how low I can go with the mash volume using 10kg grain.  

Sorry AK I just don't follow you.  As you have a 65 L system of course you can sparge as you will have heaps of room once you lift the grains out.  Too bad if you end up with a little more or a lot more pre-boil volume after the sparge but you will end up with a lot more sugars extracted into the wort.  I would sparge it then just boil it a bit longer to the get the volume down to your required post-boil batch size.  The sugars will be more and not less if you sparge and then boil off the excess volume.  It's just common-sense IMO.  Your post-boil gravity will be the same as your recipe predicts, if not a tad more.

I have done 50 L of mash water and 8 kg in grain in my 70 Nano system to see what it can handle, and it did it easily.

Edited February 29 by iBooz2

[Shamus O'Sean]

55 minutes ago, Aussiekraut said:

My problem isn't the size of the system but the size of the batch compared to the amount of grain. I'm planning on a 20l batch. The system has a 4l/h boiloff rate, so I need a pre-boil volume of 24l. At 6l loss to grain absorption, I need a 30l mash volume. That doesn't leave room for sparge water. I just have to let it all drip out for half an hour or so but I can't add fresh hot water to rinse more sugars out of the grain. If I make the batch bigger, I'll have to use more grain or lose ABV. I don't know how low I can go with the mash volume using 10kg grain.  

I think I know what you mean AK.  See the Brewfather numbers I figured below.  Given the volume needed for the grain and the boil time, you cannot do a sparge.

If you want to do a sparge, you need to boil for longer to boil off the extra water.  By my calculations you would need to be prepared to boil for around 150 minutes before you even needed a sparge.  See the same recipe below with a 3 hour boil.  Even then it is less than a 2 litre sparge.

I do not think it is as simple as; use as much mash water as you need for your water/grain ratio.  Then sparge with say 4 litres.  But boil for another hour to eliminate that 4 litres.  I am not sure why it works that way.  Maybe it is because some of the sparge water will be absorbed by the wet grain.  Then you will fall short of your 20 litre target. 

I reckon you need to do something like the recipe above and see how it goes.  Then refine it form there.  The other option, if you do not want to stuff up a 20 litre batch, is to brew a much smaller batch and see how it comes out.  However, I would target the 20 litres.  Even if you fall short on volume or OG, you can either accept it and move on, or add some water or LDM to make up the difference.  That recipe can even accept Dextrose to add sugars without really affecting taste.

[Aussiekraut]

9 hours ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

I think I know what you mean AK.  See the Brewfather numbers I figured below.  Given the volume needed for the grain and the boil time, you cannot do a sparge.

If you want to do a sparge, you need to boil for longer to boil off the extra water.  By my calculations you would need to be prepared to boil for around 150 minutes before you even needed a sparge.  See the same recipe below with a 3 hour boil.  Even then it is less than a 2 litre sparge.

I do not think it is as simple as; use as much mash water as you need for your water/grain ratio.  Then sparge with say 4 litres.  But boil for another hour to eliminate that 4 litres.  I am not sure why it works that way.  Maybe it is because some of the sparge water will be absorbed by the wet grain.  Then you will fall short of your 20 litre target. 

I reckon you need to do something like the recipe above and see how it goes.  Then refine it form there.  The other option, if you do not want to stuff up a 20 litre batch, is to brew a much smaller batch and see how it comes out.  However, I would target the 20 litres.  Even if you fall short on volume or OG, you can either accept it and move on, or add some water or LDM to make up the difference.  That recipe can even accept Dextrose to add sugars without really affecting taste.

That's an idea. A longer boil will give me some wiggle room. I can mash with a little more water and can still sparge. I just adjusted the recipe accordingly and now I have a mash volume of 33l and a sparge volume of 5l. This should leave me with 32l pre-boil volume and get me to 20l after a 3h boil. It'll be an early start to the brew day if I want to have some of the day left when I am done  Now to create a new BrewZilla profile.

Thanks for the nudge in the right direction. 

 

[Aussiekraut]

11 hours ago, iBooz2 said:

Sorry AK I just don't follow you.  As you have a 65 L system of course you can sparge as you will have heaps of room once you lift the grains out.  Too bad if you end up with a little more or a lot more pre-boil volume after the sparge but you will end up with a lot more sugars extracted into the wort.  I would sparge it then just boil it a bit longer to the get the volume down to your required post-boil batch size.  The sugars will be more and not less if you sparge and then boil off the excess volume.  It's just common-sense IMO.  Your post-boil gravity will be the same as your recipe predicts, if not a tad more.

I have done 50 L of mash water and 8 kg in grain in my 70 Nano system to see what it can handle, and it did it easily.

The tricky bit is to get to the 20l batch size with what is essentially double the grain bill for a smaller-than-usual batch size. As @Shamus O'Sean suggested, a longer boil will help solve the problem. If I opt for a 3 hour boil, I have all up 12l boil off and can use more mash water and have room for sparging. As long as I hit 32l pre-boil volume, all is good. 

[iBooz2]

9 hours ago, Aussiekraut said:

 As @Shamus O'Sean suggested, a longer boil will help solve the problem. If I opt for a 3 hour boil, I have all up 12l boil off and can use more mash water and have room for sparging. As long as I hit 32l pre-boil volume, all is good. 

Thats exactly what I said in my previous post - a longer boil and I did not need to do two recipes to find that out.  Simple primary school maths gave me the answer for your problem in two seconds. 

I.e. a 4 L boil per hour, just do a longer boil.  Two-hour boil = 8 L boil off so you could do a 4 L sparge as the other 4 L is already accounted for in your equipment profile.  OR you could do a more vigorous boil (instead of the normal rolling boil) and boil off 6 L per hour and if you did that for two hours you could do a 6 L sparge.  I don't know where shamus got his "less than 2 L from".  Boiling for 150 minutes is 2.5 hours so at your "rolling" boil off rate of 4 L per hour you will boil off 10 L (4 of which is already accounted for by your equipment profile).

21 hours ago, iBooz2 said:

Too bad if you end up with a little more or a lot more pre-boil volume after the sparge but you will end up with a lot more sugars extracted into the wort.  I would sparge it then just boil it a bit longer to the get the volume down to your required post-boil batch size.  The sugars will be more and not less if you sparge and then boil off the excess volume.  It's just common-sense IMO.  Your post-boil gravity will be the same as your recipe predicts, if not a tad more.

And shouldn't your batch size target be 22 L as a 20 L cube holds 22 L when hot and you do not want any air space in the cubes, particularly if you keep them for some time as FWK's.

If you don't want to do a longer boil than say 2 hours then drop more sugar into the recipe.

[Shamus O'Sean]

13 hours ago, Aussiekraut said:

That's an idea. A longer boil will give me some wiggle room. I can mash with a little more water and can still sparge. I just adjusted the recipe accordingly and now I have a mash volume of 33l and a sparge volume of 5l. This should leave me with 32l pre-boil volume and get me to 20l after a 3h boil. It'll be an early start to the brew day if I want to have some of the day left when I am done  Now to create a new BrewZilla profile.

Thanks for the nudge in the right direction. 

 

Your welcome, I think.  I say that because something does not seem right with my two recipes.  The mash volume should be the same in each recipe because the mash volume formula is based on the weight of grain and the system dead space.  These are constant in each recipe, but the mash volume changes.  Weird?

I think @iBooz2 is closer to the answer.  But it may not be as simple as: if your boil off is 4 l/hr, add 4 l via a sparge and just boil for twice as long.

At the end of the day, give it a crack.  I reckon you will get pretty close to what you are aiming for.

[Aussiekraut]

13 hours ago, iBooz2 said:

Thats exactly what I said in my previous post - a longer boil and I did not need to do two recipes to find that out.  Simple primary school maths gave me the answer for your problem in two seconds. 

I.e. a 4 L boil per hour, just do a longer boil.  Two-hour boil = 8 L boil off so you could do a 4 L sparge as the other 4 L is already accounted for in your equipment profile.  OR you could do a more vigorous boil (instead of the normal rolling boil) and boil off 6 L per hour and if you did that for two hours you could do a 6 L sparge.  I don't know where shamus got his "less than 2 L from".  Boiling for 150 minutes is 2.5 hours so at your "rolling" boil off rate of 4 L per hour you will boil off 10 L (4 of which is already accounted for by your equipment profile).

And shouldn't your batch size target be 22 L as a 20 L cube holds 22 L when hot and you do not want any air space in the cubes, particularly if you keep them for some time as FWK's.

If you don't want to do a longer boil than say 2 hours then drop more sugar into the recipe.

Yeah, you're right. Not sure where my head was. 

There are a few reasons why I opted for a smaller 20l batch. I need less grain to achieve the high ABV I am aiming for, I won't drink humongous amounts of this (I hope) and I need fewer bottles for it. When we moved house, I gave away more than 100 PET bottles, 300 stubbies and a fair few 500ml bottles. I only kept a limited amount and a lot of them are used for the Doppelbock, so I don't have many. This beer is meant for ageing, although I will pop the occasional one of course and they will be tied up for quite some time. Since I have another beer in mind that will be bottled, storage is also an issue.

[Aussiekraut]

9 hours ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

Your welcome, I think.  I say that because something does not seem right with my two recipes.  The mash volume should be the same in each recipe because the mash volume formula is based on the weight of grain and the system dead space.  These are constant in each recipe, but the mash volume changes.  Weird?

I think @iBooz2 is closer to the answer.  But it may not be as simple as: if your boil off is 4 l/hr, add 4 l via a sparge and just boil for twice as long.

At the end of the day, give it a crack.  I reckon you will get pretty close to what you are aiming for.

BrewFather seems to be going for the right amount of mash water first and will do what it can to get there, although sometimes its water numbers don't work out. If you add the suggested mash and sparge volumes and subtract the boiloff and grain absorption losses, you end up with a lot more than the desired batch size. I haven't figured this out yet but I never took the scientific approach.