brada7 Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Hey Brewers, Not so long ago in this room someone, reommended Nottingham Ale yeast as a good performer and able to chew through plenty of malt. I purchased some online and just put it into the cupboard. When I went to use it, I actually read the packet and it said to store below 10 degrees! Yikes, now I am hesitant to use. Any advice? It is also on the pack that it needs to be hydrated before picthing, never done that before. Should I try making a starter to see if the yeast is okay and if so, how much prior can I do it? Cheers.[pouty] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muddy Waters Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I tend to err on the side of caution so I'd probably ditch it. Chances are that it'll still be viable. You should really keep all your yeast in the fridge. As for rehydrating I find sprinkling it on dry is just as effective as rehydrating it. Some people swear by it but I don't think it makes much of a difference.....having said that if you want to use the notto you have you may benefit by making a starter to see if the yeast is viable before pitching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyW Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Hey Brewers, Not so long ago in this room someone, reommended Nottingham Ale yeast as a good performer and able to chew through plenty of malt. I purchased some online and just put it into the cupboard. When I went to use it, I actually read the packet and it said to store below 10 degrees! Yikes, now I am hesitant to use. Any advice? It is also on the pack that it needs to be hydrated before picthing, never done that before. Should I try making a starter to see if the yeast is okay and if so, how much prior can I do it? Cheers.[pouty] All my yeast goes straight in the fridge but i have seen yeast left in cupboards plenty of times and it still works, the stuff under the coopers lids is an example. I would err on the side of caution and hydrate it to see if the cells are active. I used rehydrated nottingham in my brew thats currently in the FV Bring 100mm or water to 30-35C pour in the yeast and leave for 15minutes then give it a stir and then leave for another 15minutes before pitching. If you havent got a thermomenter to measure the water temp then dont do it or you may have it too hot and kill the yeast, dry pitching will be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyW Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Found this in my notes for Nottingham yeast "Sprinkle the yeast on the surface of 10 times its weight of clean, sterilized (boiled) water at 30\u201335\xb0C. Do not use wort, or distilled or reverse osmosis water, as loss in viability will result. DO NOT STIR. Leave undisturbed for 15 minutes, then stir to suspend yeast completely, and leave it for 5 more minutes at 30\u201335\xb0C. Then adjust temperature to that of the wort and inoculate without delay." The way i did it in my other post is simialr except i just leave it another 15mins before pitching it, i am usually doing something else in between and this works fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brada7 Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 Thanks guys, but if I make a starter as opposed to just rehydrating, do I do it the day before, and what sort of activity should I expect to see? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Creating a starter is basically providing the yeast with a wort to start multiplying. If you are going to do this then you would be better off doing it a few days before to get the best result and depending on how big of starter you want then even a week before. However, how long was your yeast left in the heat? What I suggest doing is rehydrate the yeast and if it starts to go creamy looking after about 20-30 minutes then just pitch that. It wouldn't hurt to have another packet handy just in case the yeast does not take off. If it does then just use the next packet next time. When using yeasts other than kit yeast I usually either rinse it or take a few jars straight from the trub. This way it saves you costs and you always have some yeast as backup in case something like this doesn't work. I too keep all yeast in the fridge. Yeast goes in the fridge and hops into the freezer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kearnage Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 The good news is that professional companies put a lot of effort into selecting the right yeast, getting it in perfect shape, putting it in a form with maximum storage and viability, and then packaging it. I have found storing yeast in the fridge works fine, but so did the one I forgot and left under the lid in the laundry for a year. Rehydrating works, as does making a starter, but so does just chucking the yeast on top of the wort - so that is all I do now. There is often a lot of passionate discussion about how to pitch yeast, but with dry yeast, it really is hard to bugger it up! Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Mud Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I was under the impression that you usually only make starters for liquid yeast, but that you sometimes proof dry yeast in a small amount of sugar and water to establish viability. Danstar Nottingham Ale yeast is apparently designed to get to work on fermenting the wort ASAP and Danstar say that proofing the yeast depletes some of these resources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kearnage Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Indeed - rehydrating dry yeast doesn't give any indication of viability, it just makes it wet. There is some evidence that a greater proportion of your yeast will remain viable if you rehydrate rather than pitching dry. To prove viability you need to add some form of fermentable, which undoes the hard work the lab has done getting your yeast in perfect shape, or you have to make a full starter, which is overkill for the average brewer using a dry yeast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brada7 Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 Bill, Its only been stored in the cupboard for a week. It has a best before of Feb 13. Who knows how it was stored before it got to me and if imported, does it travel over hear under refrigeration? I think I will just re hydrate and hop for the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Phil - you can create starters for dry yeast as well. There are a lot of people who do this. Some people reckon it is not worth it as they will just buy another packet. However, if you are like me and are a tight (*) then this saves money. Same as when I reuse the trub from something like US05. I have proven that my method can easily save over $120 in yeast and to me, $120 can be spent on other ingredients to make the beer better. Kearnage - sorry but I beg to differ. Rehydrating dry yeast can in fact prove if it is viable or not. The thing it does not prove is how much viable yeast is there. If the yeast is not viable then you will get no action and if it is it will go creamy and start to develop a small amount of foam on top. Brada7 - you will be fine. The yeast has only been in the cupboard for a week. Mark my words, it will be ok to use. Just do what you said, rehydrate and pitch it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kearnage Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 From the Lallemand - Danstar (makers of Nottingham yeast) website: Rehydration Critical line: Foam or no foam is not an indication of vitality From elsewhere on their site: "Does foam or no foam during rehydration give me an indication of how actively the yeast will ferment? No! There is no definite explanation why some dry yeasts foam more than others but it has been proven in a series of tests that the occurrence of foam during rehydration is not an indication for more active yeast. Yeast that produced large amounts of foam could have poorer activity than yeast that did not produce any or only small amounts of foam." Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 From the Lallemand - Danstar (makers of Nottingham yeast) website: Rehydration Critical line: Foam or no foam is not an indication of vitality From elsewhere on their site: "Does foam or no foam during rehydration give me an indication of how actively the yeast will ferment? No! There is no definite explanation why some dry yeasts foam more than others but it has been proven in a series of tests that the occurrence of foam during rehydration is not an indication for more active yeast. Yeast that produced large amounts of foam could have poorer activity than yeast that did not produce any or only small amounts of foam." Dan I agree, foam or no foam will not give you an indication of how much yeast is there or how active your ferment will be. I never said it did! Read my post again... I said rehydration will give an indication if there are viable yeast there but the thing it will not prove is how much viable yeast is there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kearnage Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I did say in a previous post that this subject causes a lot of passionate discussion! I thought the Danstar quote 'Foam or no foam is not an indication of vitality' was sufficient, but here is an excerpt from John Palmer's 'How to Brew', which makes it clear that rehydrating and 'proofing' the yeast (ie confirming it is viable) are different things:\t Rehydrating and Proofing Chapter 6 - Yeast 6.5 Preparing Yeast and Yeast Starters Preparing Dry Yeast Dry yeast should be re-hydrated in water before pitching. Often the concentration of sugars in wort is high enough that the yeast can not draw enough water across the cell membranes to restart their metabolism. For best results, re-hydrate 2 packets of dry yeast in warm water (95-105\xb0F) and then proof the yeast by adding some sugar to see if they are still alive after de-hydration and storage. If it's not showing signs of life (churning, foaming) after a half hour, your yeast may be too old or dead. Figure 34 and 35: Dry yeast that has been re-hydrated and the same yeast after proofing. Re-hydrating Dry Yeast 1. Put 1 cup of warm (95-105F, 35-40C) boiled water into a sanitized jar and stir in the yeast. Cover with Saran Wrap and wait 15 minutes. 2. "Proof" the yeast by adding one teaspoon of extract or sugar that has been boiled in a small amount of water. Allow the sugar solution to cool before adding it to the jar. 3. Cover and place in a warm area out of direct sunlight. 4. After 30 minutes or so the yeast should be visibly churning and/or foaming, and is ready to pitch. Note: Lallemand/Danstar does not recommend proofing after rehydration of their yeast because they have optimized their yeast's nutrional reserves for quick starting in the main wort. Proofing expends some of those reserves. So, you are not confirming the viability of your yeast by rehydrating, simply making it wet again. You need to add a fermentable to prove viability, and most manufacturers do not recommend doing this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 rehydration will give an indication if there are viable yeast there but the thing it will not prove is how much viable yeast is there. You can post all the links and quotes you like. It is not going to convince me. It is pretty logical. Think about it, if yeast is dead (not viable) then there will be no action because the yeast is dead so no change in the liquid/water. If the yeast is somewhat "alive" then there will be a change in the liquid (this shows the yeast is in fact viable but not the quantity or quality of the yeast). I am yet to be convinced otherwise. Maybe we should agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kearnage Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Maybe we should agree to disagree. It's a deal. [pinched] I've cracked one of my galaxy/amarillo/willamette amber ales (yeast mercilessly chucked into fermenter with no rehydration) and am no longer so fussed about it all. Cheers Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muddy Waters Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Maybe we should agree to disagree. It's a deal. [pinched] I've cracked one of my galaxy/amarillo/willamette amber ales (yeast mercilessly chucked into fermenter with no rehydration) and am no longer so fussed about it all. Cheers Dan What a cop out [pinched] ...fight to the death I say - but I have dibs on Bill's herd of fridges if you win Dan...including Obelix and his spoils [bandit] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kearnage Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Cheers Muddy, sorry if you've missed out on a good paddock of fridges! You're right though, I should have at least insisted Bill let Danstar and John Palmer know they're wrong. [devil] Oh hell, I've started again, haven't I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasond4 Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Well that was a good read, very enjoyable I must say. I think you've got the original question and taken it out for a long walk and got lost...but very informative. There is a recent article on the merits of re hydrating yeast in BYO magazine in collaboration with Brewing Radio...wont go into details about it ....just read it. Personally I would just go and sprinkle the yeast on top and let it do its thing, as Brada said who knows how it got here and how it was stored. Just go with it. The one thing we have to be in this hobby/lifestyle is to have an open mind about the process that are in front of us as home brewers. Many times I've rehydrate my yeast and now I only rehydrate lager yeasts, I find it gives them a better chance in life and a lesser shock to the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muddy Waters Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I should have at least insisted Bill let Danstar and John Palmer know they're wrong. [devil] That's the spirit [lol] I think you've got the original question and taken it out for a long walk and got lost...but very informative. [cool] As per usual.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Damn! I've just logged on and found I had missed the whole argument. Muddy, I think a herd of fridges may be too much for you to handle. I will take a couple off your hands to help you out. My 2 cents, I sometimes rehydrate and sometimes sprinkle dry. I have found no difference in the result. I think that was also the conclusion in the BYO article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muddy Waters Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I've rethought my terminology - I should really be a Pride of fridges rather than a herd [rightful] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Rehydrating and then adjusting to pitching temp with the wort you are pitching to is my method, I find the Lag time is much reduced. As per the US-05 spec sheet "Re-hydrate the dry yeast into yeast cream in a stirred vessel prior to pitching. Sprinkle the dry yeast in 10 times its own weight of sterile water or wort at 27C \xb1 3C (80F \xb1 6F). Once the expected weight of dry yeast is reconstituted into cream by this method (this takes about 15 to 30 minutes), maintain a gentle stirring for another 30 minutes. Then pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel. Alternatively, pitch dry yeast directly in the fermentation vessel providing the temperature of the wort is above 20C (68F). Progressively sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the yeast covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps. Leave for 30 minutes and then mix the wort e.g. using aeration. Pretty damn simple really.. edit: I think from memory the Nottingham spec sheet reccomends the temp adjustment with wort as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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