Australian Pale Ale (higher ABV)

[ChristinaS1]

Asperger's and social anxiety? Yes, there are always reasons people are alcoholic; they don't drink for no reason, I find anyway.

 

Social anxiety is the reason my mother-in-law, she of the greater than 2,000 batches of Coopers Blonde, is an alcoholic. As for Asperger's, that is difficult too, as all of the treatments have their pros and cons....There used to be a regular poster here by the name of Beeblebrox. He was passionate about brewing and a great asset to this forum, very knowledgeable and reflective. He had Asperger's, and was very open about it. He had a service dog, Harry, who helped him a great deal. You can look up some of his old posts to get a flavour of him. He was probably a little older than you. I don't think he was able work outside the home but he had a disabled wife and he and Harry were her caregivers. I think they had a happy home.

 

You are right that good beer is one of life's best pleasures, but I am not sure I agree Amstel good beer! Nice to hear that you'd add DME if you could. Maybe some day you'll be able to afford it. Keeping my fingers crossed for you. Meanwhile you can perfect the art of kit and kilo, and learn about sanitation, temperature control, proper pitching rates, yeast management, and yes, aging.

 

BTW, not sure how big the city is where you live is, but you might want to price plastic brew buckets at the various wine kit stores. Most in my area sell ones with their logo on it and charge C$20-30, but there is one where their kits come in plastic buckets but they choose to ferment in glass carboys. They sell the surplus plastic buckets for just C$2.50, which is a great boon for me with my vinegar making business.

 

Cheers,

 

Christina.

 

 

 

 

 

[egoAIO]

Kind of urgent Question. I just finished prepare the aussie pale ale..

 

Is it ok to sprinkle the yeast onto the foam? I aerated the wart a ton and there is a 2 inch layer of foam that i just sprinkled the yeast on to (without stirring it in). I noticed that the layer got rapidly thinner after putting the yeast on it.

 

Secondly, i forgot to take a hydrometer reading until 2 mins after pitching the yeast (at 21c). However would this matter? I took a sample from the tap at the bottom, im guessing the yeast hasn't reached down there. OG is 1.046 (total water is 20l instead of 23l). That might alter the flavor but it seems a safe way to increase the final abv a tad.

 

I'm exhausted atm, didn't sleep well and just back from doctors too lol. Stupid question but, when using the hydrometer, do u count upwards or down. I'm not sure if its 1.054 or 1.046..

 

Used to live in Holland, amstel was one of my favourites. Heineken is the famous one but it's so ordinary.

[Quokka]

No! Never sprinkle the yeast on top of the foam! You'll start a whole lot of people ranting.

 

The beer will probably be fine, it takes a little longer to get going when dry pitched but if you took care with sterilisation the beer will probably be OK.

 

Depending on your taste buds/imagination you may not taste the "cidery" taste if fermented at 20C, but there will be a "warmth" from the alcohol that most will notice with such a thin beer.

[ChristinaS1]

What he means is most would recommend you rehydrate the yeast in 100mL of plain tap water for first for 30 minutes. Since APA kit comes with a lager/ale blended yeast, best not to make the water too warm, maybe 25C. But you can sprinkle the yeast if you aren't ready for rehydrating yet.

 

Good luck with the brew.

 

Cheers,

 

Christina.

[egoAIO]

I'm good with sanitation. Boiling water + vwp, shaking around the bucket, rinse, repeat.

 

8 hours now and no co2 being produced yet. Temp is 21c. That's ambient here, will be hard to cool it down much but at night would drop a degree or so.

 

Hybrid ale/lager yeast? Weird... hope it'll turn out ok fermenting at these temps. The kit actually came with no instructions at all so i had to check youtube. Would be nice if they included instructions and info about the yeasts temp tolerance etc.

 

Any idea about the hydrometer confusion? It's either 1.046 or 1.054. Not sure if you read it top to bottom or bottom to top. Bare in mind it's 3 litres less water in there than normal... just the kit plus 1kg table sugar.

 

Why would it be a thin beer? Should be thicker since less water..

[egoAIO]

in future i'll re-hydrate, just didn't cross my mind to do it. Even if 50% yeast die, they'll just reproduce into a good colony? Would like to bottle this after 10 days, then 4 days later is bday. Guessing dry pitching will slow down the whole process.

[Bolchy]

Much as i dont agree with the ingredients and process u use. Maybe if you try fermenting the beer warm... like at 24-25°. It very well could be fermented out in a week. Then bottle it with carbonation drops and store at about 25 degrees it may be carbonated in a week. And yes everyone else on here i know that is not good practice for making good beer. But it may give the results that are being asked for. A quick turnaround and a 'finished' beer. That is the advice that is being asked for. Not to make good beer but to make cheap quick beer.

[egoAIO]

Much as i dont agree with the ingredients and process u use. Maybe if you try fermenting the beer warm... like at 24-25°. It very well could be fermented out in a week. Then bottle it with carbonation drops and store at about 25 degrees it may be carbonated in a week. And yes everyone else on here i know that is not good practice for making good beer. But it may give the results that are being asked for. A quick turnaround and a 'finished' beer. That is the advice that is being asked for. Not to make good beer but to make cheap quick beer.

 

Not a patient person when it comes to beer, thanks for the advice. I think the ingredients are perfectly normal this batch. Just 1kg regular white sugar.

 

The last batch with the 6 year old tin, there wasn't any krausen layer. Should i expect a nice thick one this time? If the yeast is ale it should be at the top.

[Bolchy]

Much as i dont agree with the ingredients and process u use. Maybe if you try fermenting the beer warm... like at 24-25°. It very well could be fermented out in a week. Then bottle it with carbonation drops and store at about 25 degrees it may be carbonated in a week. And yes everyone else on here i know that is not good practice for making good beer. But it may give the results that are being asked for. A quick turnaround and a 'finished' beer. That is the advice that is being asked for. Not to make good beer but to make cheap quick beer.

 

Not a patient person when it comes to beer' date=' thanks for the advice. I think the ingredients are perfectly normal this batch. Just 1kg regular white sugar.

 

The last batch with the 6 year old tin, there wasn't any krausen layer. Should i expect a nice thick one this time? If the yeast is ale it should be at the top. [/quote']

Not sure on the krausen. Different yeast do different things. But can i please recomend that for maybe £1 -£1.50 you buy a box of coopers brewing sugar rather than table sugar. It will be better. And probably easier for the yeast to eat. As o believe table sugar has to be broken down before its fermented however dextrose doesnt. And as such will not stress the yeast as much and probably ferment quicker.

[Bolchy]

And maybe if its financially viable. Even buy 1oz/25 grams of cascade or galaxy or another strong flavour hop and dry hop it to try mask the watery cidery flavour. Just pour them in the fermenter on day 3 or 4.

[Bolchy]

I'm good with sanitation. Boiling water + vwp' date=' shaking around the bucket, rinse, repeat.

 

8 hours now and no co2 being produced yet. Temp is 21c. That's ambient here, will be hard to cool it down much but at night would drop a degree or so.

 

Hybrid ale/lager yeast? Weird... hope it'll turn out ok fermenting at these temps. The kit actually came with no instructions at all so i had to check youtube. Would be nice if they included instructions and info about the yeasts temp tolerance etc.

 

Any idea about the hydrometer confusion? It's either 1.046 or 1.054. Not sure if you read it top to bottom or bottom to top. Bare in mind it's 3 litres less water in there than normal... just the kit plus 1kg table sugar.

 

Why would it be a thin beer? Should be thicker since less water..[/quote']

The instructions are on the back of the label. 1.046 is the reading. Co2 can be deceiving if theirs a slight air leak. Only real way to know is hydromoter

[egoAIO]

i saw a 'pull here' thing on the label. It just ripped off a thin bit of paper. The label was firmly glued to the tin, impossible to take off. King of regret not getting brewing sugar. Detest cider, apparently dextrose is less cidery than using sucrose. However the city i'm in (Glasgow) only has one brewing store. And they mark up their prices way too much. 1kg brewing sugar there is 2.40 quid vs 0.65 quid for 1kg table sugar. Being unemployed sucks! lol. Not a frugal person at all, just got to make do with what one has during hard times.

[ChristinaS1]

You could always break the sucrose down for the yeast by "inverting" it. I have never done it but believe it is a simple process. Just add water, cane sugar, dissolve in a pot, then add a little organic acid, and simmer for 20 minutes to 2 hours. The longer you cook the darker and more caramel flavours you get. For the acid some people use tartaric acid, which is called Cream of Tartar in the spice section of the grocery store, or citric acid, which is in lemons, but can also be bought in small packets at the home brew store. There are all kinds of how to recipes on the web for inverted sugar. Here is one:

 

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/invert-syrups-making-simple-sugars-complex-beers/

 

Earlier you asked about calculators. Here is a simple one:

 

https://www.brewcraft.co.za/index.php/brewing-calculator

 

And here is a more sophisticated one:

 

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/calculator/

 

Cheers,

 

Christina.

[Quokka]

Inverting sugar used to be common, but has been found to be pointless. Theoretically it should actually produce an inferior beer, but I never noticed anything I couldn't put down to imagination. You can buy glucose ready made in the supermarket if you don't believe me. Similarly, the "cidery taste" from sucrose has no scientific basis and no-one has been able to demonstrate it - it seems people pick up the estery flavour more easily when brewed at higher temperatures if sugar is used instead of malt and are expecting a cider flavour.

 

Brewing with sugar is not the best taste with an ale - that's why commercial swill is usually lager. The main advantage of destrose is it is a finer powder so it dissolves better, though there is a little bit of other sugars in there you would be hard-pressed to taste the difference.

 

Most people here actually also started out Kit and Kilo, they just forget it. It is actually a good idea to make things easier and to get to know the ingredients and process, but there is better beer in your future.

 

[ImaginativeName]

You could always break the sucrose down for the yeast by "inverting" it. I have never done it but believe it is a simple process. Just add water' date=' cane sugar, dissolve in a pot, then add a little organic acid, and simmer for 20 minutes to 2 hours. The longer you cook the darker and more caramel flavours you get. For the acid some people use tartaric acid, which is called Cream of Tartar in the spice section of the grocery store, or citric acid, which is in lemons, but can also be bought in small packets at the home brew store. There are all kinds of how to recipes on the web for inverted sugar. Here is one:

 

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/invert-syrups-making-simple-sugars-complex-beers/

 

Earlier you asked about calculators. Here is a simple one:

 

https://www.brewcraft.co.za/index.php/brewing-calculator

 

And here is a more sophisticated one:

 

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/calculator/

 

Cheers,

 

Christina.[/quote']

 

I was looking at making what I believe is called Belgian Candi, same deal, planned on infusing that with loads of ginger and probably some other additions, top that up with water and throw in RCCCY.

 

I guess you could call it a ginger ale?

 

Cheers JP

[ChristinaS1]

Inverting sugar used to be common' date=' but has been found to be pointless. Theoretically it should actually produce an inferior beer, but I never noticed anything I couldn't put down to imagination. You can buy glucose ready made in the supermarket if you don't believe me. Similarly, the "cidery taste" from sucrose has no scientific basis and no-one has been able to demonstrate it - it seems people pick up the estery flavour more easily when brewed at higher temperatures if sugar is used instead of malt and are expecting a cider flavour.

 

Brewing with sugar is not the best taste with an ale - that's why commercial swill is usually lager. The main advantage of destrose is it is a finer powder so it dissolves better, though there is a little bit of other sugars in there you would be hard-pressed to taste the difference.

 

Most people here actually also started out Kit and Kilo, they just forget it. It is actually a good idea to make things easier and to get to know the ingredients and process, but there is better beer in your future.

[/quote']

 

Inverted sugar is theoretically inferior to sucrose? Please explain. I kind of doubt that. If you are boiling your own wort, I am prepared to accept there is no difference, but it makes no sense to me that it would be inferior. On the other hand if you are adding it to a kit, where there is no boil, it is my understanding there is a clear benefit to using dextrose/glucose, and by extension inverted sugar, over table sugar.

 

Take Ego's second brew as an example: he attempted to make a high gravity brew by adding a bunch of table sugar to a Canadian Blonde kit, and sprinkling on some dry yeast. Result? It only fermented to 1.5% ABV....Just out of curiosity Ego, how much sugar did you add? And how many grams of dry yeast did you use?

 

I believe the Ego's brew failed to attenuate because of invertase stress. This article explains that in acidic conditions, such as those found in normal wort, and minimum temps of 140F / 60C, sucrose will be chemically inverted by the acids in the wort without any special effort on the part of the brewer. But kit brewers do not boil their wort, so the job of splitting the sugar falls to the yeast, who must use the enzyme invertase to do so. Too much sugar or not enough yeast will result in invertase stress and incomplete fermentation:

 

https://homebeer.com/2015/10/30/belgian-beers-using-invertase/

 

Given that English brewers have a history of using 10% Demerara sugar in their Bitters, it seems that much sugar will not provoke invertase stress, but since Belgian Brewers traditionally invert their sugar first, by turning it into Candi Sugar, I take it that 25-30% will cause invertase stress. I am not sure what happens between 10-25%....There is an old brewing rule of thumb that says not to use more than 20% sugar if you want good results, so maybe you are safe until there? If a kit is made to 23L, 20% = 425gm sucrose. This would only result in 3% ABV, which is not very much.

 

Ego, clearly you are looking for something at least the the neighbourhood of standard strength beer, so a kit with 1kg of sugar made to 20-21L. Maybe you can do an experiment and make the exact same recipe you are using this time (same kit, same volume, same yeast - dry pitched) but invert your sugar. If you can't see a difference in your hydrometer readings or in taste, then don't bother inverting again. I'd be interested in your results. Maybe save a bottle of your current batch so you can compare them side-by-side (although one will have aged and the other will be young, so it won't be a perfect comparison).

 

Cheers,

 

Christina.

 

PS The other thing about using more than 30% sugar, whether in the form of dextrose, inverted sugar, or honey, is that the wort gets low on nitrogen, which is also stressful for the yeast and can result in the formation of hydrogen sulfide gas (rotten egg smell). This can be avoid by adding nutrients to the wort.

[egoAIO]

Just out of curiosity Ego, how much sugar did you add? And how many grams of dry yeast did you use?

 

That batch was 1kg of table sugar and 11g of ale yeast.

 

Not much happening with the current brew.. the lid isn't even bulging outwards yet. Was reading up last night on yeast pitching rates/starters etc (knew nothing about this before).

 

Wondering if the coopers yeast, dry pitched, has enough cell count to get the job done properly. Has now been 28 hours. There is a half centimetre layer on the top, can't tell if that's krausen or just aerated wort foam. Half a centimetre above that layer, is a think dark brown ring around the edge of the fermentor. Looks like dead yeast. I rekon that its because i sprinkled the yeast onto a 2 inch layer thick of foam after aerate, and the foam collapsed but yeast died and got stuck to the edges. So i'll def have lost a ton of yeast cells that way.

 

If had doubled cell count with a starter, guessing it would already be bubbling away (my lid, airlock have a good seal so i should be seeing bubbles once it's fermenting). Or does it just take longer and the yeast will multiply by themselves? Either way i might make a starter next batch. Don't have a magnetic stirrer so i'd just shake it occasionally.

 

For an ale I read that 0.75B per ml per degree plato is recommended. I bet i've got less than 0.3B.

 

I have an amazon gift card soon :) Would this 1L flask be suitable? Your text to link here...

[Waylon]

Just leave it alone...

In 48 hours it should be alive and kicking

[Otto Von Blotto]

If there's foam after 28 hours it will be krausen. Foam from aeration doesn't hang around that long. I make my own batches of wort from grains and store it in plastic cubes, these are then poured into the FV when it's time to ferment them and this creates about 5 or 6 inches of foam on top of it, but a few hours later it's gone. Now I just oxygenate it with a sintered stone and pure O2 cylinder.

 

The first time I did this a few years ago (before the O2 cylinder set up) I just threw the dry yeast onto the foam too. The batch was perfectly fine but I didn't like the yeast sitting on the foam for a few hours or whatever, so I began re-hydrating the yeast so it went through the foam and into the wort straight away. Later I learned about the viability benefits of re-hydration. Now I make yeast starters but that's a whole other topic.

 

Anyway, if 50% of the cells are killed on dry pitching, the yeast likely will reproduce to a big enough colony to ferment the batch - the problem is that the added number of reproductions is what affects the flavour. I suspect part of the reason for recommended pitching rates is due to an optimum number of cell division in order for the flavours produced by this process to be the best they can be. Too much yeast and the beer is blander, too little and the yeast are stressed and throw off flavours more readily; this is why wheat beers are often intentionally underpitched, as those flavours aren't considered faults in that style.

 

As for the flask, that type is the best type but you might be better off with a 2 or 3 litre size, especially if you're planning on making some higher gravity worts to end up with higher ABV. I have a 3L and a 5L; I use the 3L for ales and the 5L for lagers, however, I do make my starters about a litre bigger than needed because I use them to harvest yeast for re-use.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[ChristinaS1]

Just out of curiosity Ego' date=' how much sugar did you add? And how many grams of dry yeast did you use? [/quote']

 

That batch was 1kg of table sugar and 11g of ale yeast.

 

Not much happening with the current brew.. the lid isn't even bulging outwards yet. Was reading up last night on yeast pitching rates/starters etc (knew nothing about this before).

 

Wondering if the coopers yeast, dry pitched, has enough cell count to get the job done properly. Has now been 28 hours. There is a half centimetre layer on the top, can't tell if that's krausen or just aerated wort foam. Half a centimetre above that layer, is a think dark brown ring around the edge of the fermentor. Looks like dead yeast. I rekon that its because i sprinkled the yeast onto a 2 inch layer thick of foam after aerate, and the foam collapsed but yeast died and got stuck to the edges. So i'll def have lost a ton of yeast cells that way.

 

If had doubled cell count with a starter, guessing it would already be bubbling away (my lid, airlock have a good seal so i should be seeing bubbles once it's fermenting). Or does it just take longer and the yeast will multiply by themselves? Either way i might make a starter next batch. Don't have a magnetic stirrer so i'd just shake it occasionally.

 

For an ale I read that 0.75B per ml per degree plato is recommended. I bet i've got less than 0.3B.

 

I have an amazon gift card soon :) Would this 1L flask be suitable? Your text to link here...

 

Hi Ego,

 

Thanks for the recipe of your failed second batch. Let's hope you don't have the same problem with poor attenuation this time....If you do then I would try inverting the table sugar first next time for sure.

 

The ale/lager blended yeast sometimes doesn't have as big a krausen as all ale yeast because the lager portion is bottom fermenting. Sounds like it is fermenting though.

 

Making a starter would be an excellent idea. No, a 1L flask is not big enough, you need at least a 2L container (for ales, lagers need a 5L container). But there is no need to buy an Erlynmyer flask at this point, especially if you don't have a stir plate. You can use a plastic bottle, such as a soda bottle, or spring water bottle, preferably one with ribs on the inside. You need to sanitize them with a good quality no rinse sanitizer that can be used at room temp (you don't want to melt the plastic bottle).

 

Earlier you mentioned using VWP for sanitizer, but that is a new one on me. What is that? Starsan is a great no rinse sanitizer and can also be used to clean all your equipment, boiling water not required. It requires only 30 seconds of contact time and can be reused many times. A small bottle will last years.

 

There are a couple of different ways to make starters with manual shaking. For intermittent shaking there are tables and calculators to help you figure out the size starter needed for your gravity, and how many cells you are starting out with. The starter is nothing more than a weak wort made using a ratio of 100gm of dry malt extract per 1L of water. For normal gravity worts you can use a 2L bottle with 1.5L of weak wort and intermittent shaking. If using dry yeast, rehydrate it in water first, as previously discussed, then pour it into the boiled, cooled starter, in your 2L pop bottle. Give it a shake whenever you walk by; you can tighten the lid temporarily when you shake, but then loosen it in between times. Typically you make this kind of starter a few days before brew day and let it ferment out, then stick it in the fridge until brew day.

 

Another method is called Shaken Not Stirred. It is similar but instead of making it three days ahead, shaking it intermittently, and letting it ferment out, you make it the night before and pitch it at high krausen, and you only shake it once (very hard) at the very beginning. You need a much larger bottle, 4L in size, but use just 1L of starter wort (regardless of the gravity of your brew). Once the starter wort has cooled, add your rehydrated yeast, then just shake the bejebuz out of it for one minute, turning the wort into a complete mass of bubbles. No further shaking is required....If I am starting with kit yeast, which is just 7gm, I use the Shaken not Stirred starter method. If I am using third party yeast, which is 11-11.5gm, 1L of wort isn't enough, so then I will use the intermittent shaking method.

 

If you don't want to make a starter another option is to buy two kits, use both kit yeasts (rehydrated) to ferment the first kit (=14gm), then use half a pint or so of sloppy slurry from the bottom of the fermenter (about 1/4 of the yeast cake) to ferment the second kit. It is a bit easier and requires less planning. The only drawback with this is that you can't save slurry from a batch you have dry hopped commando style.

 

Cheers,

 

Christina.

[Otto Von Blotto]

No idea what's in VWP since there doesn't seem to be a data sheet readily available and all the images are of the front of the label where you can't see the bloody ingredients. One I can read has it containing Sodium dichloroisocyanurate dihydrate at 12% w/w but I can't see the rest. Another one has it containing Troclosene sodium, although that's pretty much the same thing as the other.

 

 

[ChristinaS1]

No idea what's in VWP since there doesn't seem to be a data sheet readily available and all the images are of the front of the label where you can't see the bloody ingredients. One I can read has it containing Sodium dichloroisocyanurate dihydrate at 12% w/w but I can't see the rest. Another one has it containing Troclosene sodium' date=' although that's pretty much the same thing as the other.

 

[/quote']

 

Thanks Kelsey. Must be a UK thing. If it has to be rinsed, would it any good for sanitizing plastic bottles for starters? I wouldn't think so, as they can't be rinsed with boiling water; it would melt the plastic. I discovered this the hard way when I once tried pouring boiling wort into a plastic spring water bottle. Ruined my starter and had to make another one, in a different bottle, letting it cool first...The spring water bottle I used was made of PET plastic, but maybe HDPE may be sturdier? Not sure, but I have never seen a ribbed HDPE bottle.

 

Ego, if you stick with VWP and rinsing with boiling water, you might have to seek out glass bottles for making starters, which would most likely not be ribbed. Could still be used though. I've used a 4L glass carboy I bought at my LHBS for a SNS starter, but it did not foam as much.

 

Cheers,

 

Christina.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Going to the trouble of cleaning and sanitising a glass bottle for a starter you might as well just go the Erlenmeyer flask which can be boiled on a gas stovetop or whatever, and save the hassle of rinsing cleaners off and shit.

 

That's one thing I like about the flasks, I simply mix the wort up in them and boil it for 5 minutes or so to sanitise it. No cleaners, no Starsan; I do soak it in sodium percarbonate after the yeast has been tipped into the batch to get all the krausen muck out of it, then rinse, boil a bit of water in it then tip it out and let it dry out, cover it with foil or glad wrap to keep dust out, then all I have to do is mix the wort and boil it next time.

[egoAIO]

It's bubbling away, I have the S type airlock with water going up to 2mm above base of bottom two spheres. Bubbles once every 20 seconds or so.

 

The VWP smells strongly of chlorine. Way cheaper than starsan and I think most people here in europe use it.

 

This might be ok for starter:

Glass Demijohn 5 Litre

 

But if the base isn't flat it might not work with future stir plate. Also its regular glass so probably would have thermal shock and crack if boil in it then cool etc.

 

Seems quite easy to just build one for about 20 quid. AC Infinity MULTIFAN S1, Quiet 80mm USB Fan That fan has speed control built in and just plug into wall usb socket.

 

Amazon also has a ton of rare earth magnets. But no idea if better have the rectangle or circle ones, or what strength and dimensions. Some are crazy strong, like 8kg of pull force. If too strong i'd imagine that even with a spacer between magnet and motor, the field might interfere with the fan itself. No diy stir plate tutorials online go into magnet strength or size, they mostly use hdd magnet. Don't have any old hdd lying around.

 

 

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

That would be the difference between the two then... Starsan doesn't have to be, and actually shouldn't be rinsed off. It is best used after a cleaner has done its job, so in your instance you'd be best to get some, because it should be sprayed on after the other stuff is rinsed off.

 

I think I paid about $12-13 for a 125mL bottle of it about 4 or 5 years ago and I've still got about half of it left.. the shit lasts forever due to the very small rate it's used at (1.5mL per litre of water).

 

Yes, if you are going to be boiling wort or putting boiling wort into glass containers, the best way to go is borosilicate glass i.e. an Erlenmeyer flask. Normal glass obviously isn't designed for such applications.