martycon Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 Thanks to all who contributed to my education on cleaning and sanitizing using napisan and starsan. I am sure it is not to do with that, but before I replace my fermenters which are only 30 months old, has anyone had recently had off flavors when using Pale Ale, and or light dry malt extract. Two in a row off, and barely drinkable, is a disaster. Meantime I am soaking the white food grade plastic fermenters filled with tap water and 200grams of napisan before trying again. cheers marty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wotto Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 Thanks to all who contributed to my education on cleaning and sanitizing using napisan and starsan. I am sure it is not to do with that' date=' but before I replace my fermenters which are only 30 months old, has anyone had recently had off flavors when using Pale Ale, and or light dry malt extract. Two in a row off, and barely drinkable, is a disaster. Meantime I am soaking the white food grade plastic fermenters filled with tap water and 200grams of napisan before trying again.cheers marty.[/quote'] Can you describe the off flavour? I've got a pale ale in bottles at the moment. Been there about a week. I tried one yesterday and its got a funny smell / flavour... sort of fruity... I thought it was bananana / diacetyl but dont know if I'm just paranoid.... my missus smelt it and says its just like the hops I got her to smell when I was brewing so I'm hoping it mellows with another week or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristinaS1 Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 Hi Martycon, and welcome to the forum! I am not sure of the cause of your off flavours, but 200gm of Napisan sounds like a lot. Is that what they recommend on the side of the package? I live in Canada where we don't have Napisan, but I used something similar. I just use two of the scoops that come with it, about 60mL, and hot tap water (if your fermentor is PVC, keep the temp <52C). I do this immediately after bottling, to remove the grunge. Then I sanitize the FV before I make my next batch. I used to sanitize with Starsan, but I have recently switched to Iodophor. Before replacing your fermentor, check it carefully for scratches. The age of the FV doesn't really matter, but its condition does. If it is scratched, replace it; if it is not, you can keep using it. Instead of using those hard plastic spoons they sell at the LHBS for stirring, I use a silicone spatula. Silicone is soft and doesn't scratch. After reconstituting your DME with water, are you raising the temp to pasteurize it? There is no need to boil it, but you do have to heat it to at least 72C in order to pasteurize it....If you use canned LME, it is already pasteurized. Another thing that might be causing off flavours is under-pitching. If you are adding more than about 500gm of DME to the kit, you also need to add more yeast. For example, if you are adding 1kg of DME, you should use at least 14gm of yeast (= two packs of Coopers yeast). Good idea to rehydrate it first too, before pitching. Finally, are you keeping your fermentation temps stable at somewhere between 18-20C? That is also very important. Cheers, Christina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristinaS1 Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 I've got a pale ale in bottles at the moment. Been there about a week. I tried one yesterday and its got a funny smell / flavour... sort of fruity... I thought it was bananana / diacetyl but dont know if I'm just paranoid.... my missus smelt it and says its just like the hops I got her to smell when I was brewing so I'm hoping it mellows with another week or two. Hi Sybian. Sounds like banana esters from fermenting too warm, like above 21C. They will fade with time in the bottle. Fermenting too warm also often causes fusel alcohols, which can present as a hot sensation on the tongue. Fusels can lead to headaches. If there aren't too many of them, they too may clean up with time in the bottle. How are you controlling your fermentation temperature? Cheers! Christina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martycon Posted October 15, 2016 Author Share Posted October 15, 2016 Thanks to all who contributed to my education on cleaning and sanitizing using napisan and starsan. I am sure it is not to do with that' date=' but before I replace my fermenters which are only 30 months old, has anyone had recently had off flavors when using Pale Ale, and or light dry malt extract. Two in a row off, and barely drinkable, is a disaster. Meantime I am soaking the white food grade plastic fermenters filled with tap water and 200grams of napisan before trying again.cheers marty.[/quote'] Can you describe the off flavour? I've got a pale ale in bottles at the moment. Been there about a week. I tried one yesterday and its got a funny smell / flavour... sort of fruity... I thought it was bananana / diacetyl but dont know if I'm just paranoid.... my missus smelt it and says its just like the hops I got her to smell when I was brewing so I'm hoping it mellows with another week or two. The flavor is hard to describe. slightly fruity, but with another bad flavor. I have never tasted burnt plastic, but a bit like that. The smell in the near empty fermenter is distinctly like acetone. The beer is also much darker and more cloudy than normal. cheers marty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 Hi martycon. Check this list out. It may help to narrow down the cause. How To Brew - John Palmer: Common Off Flavors Cheers, Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark D Pirate Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 have a look on google images for things like Aceto infected beer . i had one batch looked like a hybrid jelly fish /alien / octopus ....23 L of drain cleaner that time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martycon Posted October 15, 2016 Author Share Posted October 15, 2016 G,day Christina, I certainly feel welcome. You have a very technical understanding of brewing. The napisan is 25% sodium percarbonate, and is intended as a one off overkill. I have not been pasturising the DLME. It is sold under the Cooper's Brand name, but I have never looked to see fine print instructions.I dissolve it in hot tap water, but mixed temperature would not be over 50deg. I will pasturise in the future. Years go I purchased a pail of liquid malt extract, which after a month or so developed a creamy white surface coating, presumably oxidised. This LME caused a much more intense but similar off flavor to that now experienced, and occasionally in the last few years. I live in North Queensland, and average brew temperatures would be 25 to 30 deg most of the year, but Coopers DIY yeast handles this very well, and has been doing so for the last 30 years. I see no obvious scratches in either FV, but will now inspect very closely. I will post the results of my next brew. cheers marty. Hi Martycon' date=' and welcome to the forum! [img']smile[/img] I am not sure of the cause of your off flavours, but 200gm of Napisan sounds like a lot. Is that what they recommend on the side of the package? I live in Canada where we don't have Napisan, but I used something similar. I just use two of the scoops that come with it, about 60mL, and hot tap water (if your fermentor is PVC, keep the temp <52C). I do this immediately after bottling, to remove the grunge. Then I sanitize the FV before I make my next batch. I used to sanitize with Starsan, but I have recently switched to Iodophor. Before replacing your fermentor, check it carefully for scratches. The age of the FV doesn't really matter, but its condition does. If it is scratched, replace it; if it is not, you can keep using it. Instead of using those hard plastic spoons they sell at the LHBS for stirring, I use a silicone spatula. Silicone is soft and doesn't scratch. After reconstituting your DME with water, are you raising the temp to pasteurize it? There is no need to boil it, but you do have to heat it to at least 72C in order to pasteurize it....If you use canned LME, it is already pasteurized. Another thing that might be causing off flavours is under-pitching. If you are adding more than about 500gm of DME to the kit, you also need to add more yeast. For example, if you are adding 1kg of DME, you should use at least 14gm of yeast (= two packs of Coopers yeast). Good idea to rehydrate it first too, before pitching. Finally, are you keeping your fermentation temps stable at somewhere between 18-20C? That is also very important. Cheers, Christina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristinaS1 Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 G' date='day Christina, I certainly feel welcome. You have a very technical understanding of brewing. The napisan is 25% sodium percarbonate, and is intended as a one off overkill. I have not been pasturising the DLME. It is sold under the Cooper's Brand name, but I have never looked to see fine print instructions.I dissolve it in hot tap water, but mixed temperature would not be over 50deg. I will pasturise in the future. Years go I purchased a pail of liquid malt extract, which after a month or so developed a creamy white surface coating, presumably oxidised. This LME caused a much more intense but similar off flavor to that now experienced, and occasionally in the last few years. I live in North Queensland, and average brew temperatures would be 25 to 30 deg most of the year, but Coopers DIY yeast handles this very well, and has been doing so for the last 30 years. I see no obvious scratches in either FV, but will now inspect very closely. I will post the results of my next brew.cheers marty.[/quote'] Hi again Marty. You been brewing for 30 years? Wow, that is impressive! You sound like my mother-in-law. She has been making Coopers kits for about that long too, over 1,000 batches. How many have you made? Given how long you've put up with brewing at ambient temps, maybe it is time to treat yourself to a brew fridge? You have certainly proved brewing isn't a passing fancy. I know that Coopers yeast is more tolerant of warm temperatures than most, but it really shines at stable 20C. That is its sweet spot. Only cans of LME are sanitary; the stuff in bulk pails should be pasterurized, same as DME. The creamy white stuff on the surface of that bulk LME was probably mould. Cheers! Christina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wotto Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 I've got a pale ale in bottles at the moment. Been there about a week. I tried one yesterday and its got a funny smell / flavour... sort of fruity... I thought it was bananana / diacetyl but dont know if I'm just paranoid.... my missus smelt it and says its just like the hops I got her to smell when I was brewing so I'm hoping it mellows with another week or two. Hi Sybian. Sounds like banana esters from fermenting too warm' date=' like above 21C. They will fade with time in the bottle. Fermenting too warm also often causes fusel alcohols, which can present as a hot sensation on the tongue. Fusels can lead to headaches. If there aren't too many of them, they too may clean up with time in the bottle. How are you controlling your fermentation temperature? Cheers! Christina.[/quote'] Hi Christina, I dont want to hijack Martycon's thread, but temp was controlled in a fridge with an Inkbird 310 controller set at 18 degrees. The probe is taped under a cut up stubby holder piece of material to the side of the FV so I dont think temp was an issue. If I had to guess, perhaps chlorine in the water?? The prior batch I used bottled water and had no problems with taste/aroma. My most recent batch I used a campden tablet to remove any chlorine, so I'll see if that fixes it. Cheers, Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martycon Posted October 15, 2016 Author Share Posted October 15, 2016 Hi martycon. Check this list out. It may help to narrow down the cause. How To Brew - John Palmer: Common Off Flavors Cheers' date=' Lusty.[/quote'] Crikey Lusty, that is a comprehensive list, it is bookmarked. On the bright side, if so much can go wrong, I am glad how often mine are actually reasonably good. cheers marty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martycon Posted October 15, 2016 Author Share Posted October 15, 2016 I've got a pale ale in bottles at the moment. Been there about a week. I tried one yesterday and its got a funny smell / flavour... sort of fruity... I thought it was bananana / diacetyl but dont know if I'm just paranoid.... my missus smelt it and says its just like the hops I got her to smell when I was brewing so I'm hoping it mellows with another week or two. Hi Sybian. Sounds like banana esters from fermenting too warm' date=' like above 21C. They will fade with time in the bottle. Fermenting too warm also often causes fusel alcohols, which can present as a hot sensation on the tongue. Fusels can lead to headaches. If there aren't too many of them, they too may clean up with time in the bottle. How are you controlling your fermentation temperature? Cheers! Christina.[/quote'] Hi Christina, I dont want to hijack Martycon's thread, but temp was controlled in a fridge with an Inkbird 310 controller set at 18 degrees. The probe is taped under a cut up stubby holder piece of material to the side of the FV so I dont think temp was an issue. If I had to guess, perhaps chlorine in the water?? The prior batch I used bottled water and had no problems with taste/aroma. My most recent batch I used a campden tablet to remove any chlorine, so I'll see if that fixes it. Cheers, Andrew Andrew, great to have your company, cheers marty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martycon Posted October 16, 2016 Author Share Posted October 16, 2016 G' date='day Christina, I certainly feel welcome. You have a very technical understanding of brewing. The napisan is 25% sodium percarbonate, and is intended as a one off overkill. I have not been pasturising the DLME. It is sold under the Cooper's Brand name, but I have never looked to see fine print instructions.I dissolve it in hot tap water, but mixed temperature would not be over 50deg. I will pasturise in the future. Years go I purchased a pail of liquid malt extract, which after a month or so developed a creamy white surface coating, presumably oxidised. This LME caused a much more intense but similar off flavor to that now experienced, and occasionally in the last few years. I live in North Queensland, and average brew temperatures would be 25 to 30 deg most of the year, but Coopers DIY yeast handles this very well, and has been doing so for the last 30 years. I see no obvious scratches in either FV, but will now inspect very closely. I will post the results of my next brew.cheers marty.[/quote'] Hi again Marty. You been brewing for 30 years? Wow, that is impressive! You sound like my mother-in-law. She has been making Coopers kits for about that long too, over 1,000 batches. How many have you made? Given how long you've put up with brewing at ambient temps, maybe it is time to treat yourself to a brew fridge? You have certainly proved brewing isn't a passing fancy. I know that Coopers yeast is more tolerant of warm temperatures than most, but it really shines at stable 20C. That is its sweet spot. Only cans of LME are sanitary; the stuff in bulk pails should be pasterurized, same as DME. The creamy white stuff on the surface of that bulk LME was probably mould. Cheers! G'day Christina, you are already helping me to make better beer. As well as heating my DLME, I will cover my Fvs with wet hessian, which will drop the temp, 3 or so degrees as it does (or used to do) with a canvas waterbag. My first HB was made using bread yeast. If Coopers DIY was available I did not know of it. My first Coopers HB was in a big bladder, like 20 litres of cask wine. Just pour it into a plastic bin, add Coopers yeast and cover with a cloth till it stops bubbling, then prime and bottle. It tasted different, but the taste buds soon adjusted. So that was the early 70s, and now my concern is with brews 1157 and 1158 cheers marty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristinaS1 Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Glad to be of help Marty. Anytime. 1158 brew is awesome! Let us know how the hessian works out. What exactly is hessian anyway? Cheers! Christina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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