Critique needed

[Lotm]

Okay a recent question from Hairy has prompted me to start a thread aimed at hopefully ironing out the many wrinkles (some quite hefty) I have in my brewing processes and techniques.

To start off, I am only doing partials. I do Mini BIAB using a 19 Big Dub special (with a ball lock tap and pickup tube) along with a grain bag.

 

I design my recipes in Beersmith, using the following process in mind:

 

\u2022\tMash 2-2.5 Kg of grain in 12L of water to achieve somewhere around 1040 for a 10.5L volume boil. Usually mash between 64-66\xb0C (depending on desired body) for 80-90mins followed up with 10min mash out up to 75\xb0C. Sometimes, I don\u2019t bother with the mashout. I don\u2019t sparge at all. If I\u2019m short of 1040, I will add some DME or dex to get closer to the mark.

\u2022\tDo the boil, start hop additions after hot break.

\u2022\tAt 15 mins add kettle finings.

\u2022\tWith 5 to go, add remaining fermentables (set as \u201cadd after boil\u201d in Beersmith) and dissolve (along with a hop addition if planned)

\u2022\tAt flameout wait about 10 before adding aroma additions

\u2022\tWhirlpool then wait about 10 minutes

\u2022\tTransfer to cube (5L of chilled water is already in the cube)

\u2022\tTop up cube to desired level with chilled or room temp water to batch size.

\u2022\tI treat this as a no chill, so pitch yeast the next day.

 

Volumes

 

 

 

Pay no attention to the measured volumes. I didn't bother adding them in.

 

I usually account for my crap efficiency, knowing full well I never reach the estimated 1051 before the boil. I was truly shocked to measure a whopping 1022!!! So I added some dex to raise it, I got it to 1034 before the boil. I had to then add another 1Kg of DME on top of the recipe. The measure OG of the whole recipe was 1048.

 

Please keep the comments around the brewing and not the potential \u201ctaste\u201d of my recipe. That discussion can be for another thread.

 

If I have left anything out, please let me know.

 

As always, your words of wisdom, no matter how harsh they may be in this particular case, are always appreciated.

 

Full recipe below.

 

Scott.

----------------------------

Recipe Specifications

--------------------------

Boil Size: 10.50 l

Post Boil Volume: 7.66 l

Batch Size (fermenter): 22.00 l

Bottling Volume: 21.17 l

Estimated OG: 1.051 SG

Estimated Color: 11.1 EBC

Estimated IBU: 31.0 IBUs

Boil Time: 60 Minutes (this will vary slightly depending on when hot break is achieved)

 

Ingredients:

------------

Amt Name Type # %/IBU

1.25 kg Traditional Ale Malt (6.2 EBC) Grain 1 29.8 %

1.00 kg Pilsner (Barrett Burston) (3.5 EBC) Grain 2 23.8 %

0.25 kg Munich Malt (17.7 EBC) Grain 3 6.0 %

25.00 g Cascade [6.20 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 4 12.5 IBUs

25.00 g Amarillo [8.50 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 5 13.5 IBUs

0.25 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 6 -

10.00 g Cascade [6.20 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 7 3.2 IBUs

1.50 kg Light Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 12 35.7 %

0.20 kg Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 EBC) Sugar 13 4.8 %

10.00 g Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 8 1.8 IBUs

10.00 g Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Aroma Steep 15. Hop 9 0.0 IBUs

10.00 g Cascade [5.50 %] - Aroma Steep 15.0 min Hop 10 0.0 IBUs

1.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) Yeast 11 -

 

Mash Schedule: BIAB, Light Body

Total Grain Weight: 4.20 kg

----------------------------

Name Description Step Temperat Step Time

Saccharification Add 12.03 l of water at 68.1 C 64.4 C 80 min

Mash Out Heat to 75.6 C over 7 min 75.6 C 10 min

 

Sparge: Remove grains, and prepare to boil wort

 

 

 

[Hairy]

It's getting a little late for me (and a couple too many beers) to read this in detail. I might have more luck tomorrow.

 

A couple of points.

 

1. The mash looks fine. Since you are BIABing, a finer crush might help efficiency.

2. Perhaps a dunk sparge would increase your efficiency.

3. Do you drain the bag or squeeze the bag?

4. The boil likes fine too.

 

The only thing I am not too sure about is the no-chill. The no-chill is supposed to be about adding the hot wort only in the cube; this helps to sterilise the cube too. By adding chilled water to the hot wort in the cube you will chill down the wort much faster than a traditional no-chill.

 

I have no idea whether this makes a difference to your beer though.

 

It looks like you only have 7-8 litres of wort after the boil. I reckon it would be easier to just chill that in an ice bath and pitch straight after.

 

Do you have a decent stove? How much could you boil? It might be worthwhile doing a sparge and boiling a bigger volume.

 

Otherwise I don't think there is anything drastically wrong with your procedures.

 

Some of the AG guys might be able to contribute further.

 

It may also be worthwhile to look at your individual brews and work out what is wrong with them, what part of the procedure did you do differently etc

 

And a caveat to my response, I am far from an expert in these matters. I have only made about 10 partial mash brews and 2 AG batches.

[Otto Von Blotto]

I just got home from work so I'm not really thinking much..[lol]

 

It's a mystery to me why your efficiency is so low, everything seems reasonably ok with the process. The only things I would comment on at the moment is that it may well be worth doing a sparge and a finer crush like as Hairy said. I don't sparge mine, but I'm mashing double the grains in triple the amount of water. I don't know whether that makes any difference or not but it is worth a shot in my opinion. Also a finer crush on the grains would probably help. I'm led to believe that grains that require mashing need to be crushed rather than just cracked open like steeping grains, but I stand corrected on that. I tried a finer crush on my last batch and got a pre-boil gravity of 1044-45 from 5.8kg grain mashed in 35L water. Post boil was 1053-54. It was more than I was aiming for actually (just to make you feel better). [pinched] [lol]

[PhilboBaggins]

2. Perhaps a dunk sparge would increase your efficiency.

 

A big +1. I now use a 40L kettle on a gas burner, and I still wouldn't do without my dunk sparge/mashout.

 

Did you look into the Maxi BIAB thread on BIABrewer?

 

http://biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=352

 

That particular article suggests 2x dunk sparges for the high grav brewer. There is debate on whether efficiency suffers due to the low volume of water used for the mash in HG, but I reckon either way I couldn't bring myself to chuck grain which was still coated in beautiful malty goodness.

 

Scott, please don't get too disheartened (as I feel you may be) with the AG process. Some of us have luck from the start, and some don't. I've heard of people getting well over 70% efficiency in a Big W pot on the stove. I actually got 67% into FV efficiency once, and I'm far from perfect (just ask SWMBO[innocent]).

 

My first 10 or so AG brews were in the same pot as you on a gas stove, with no real idea about what I was doing, and I got some awesome beers.

 

Also, Hairy is correct about the post boil volume. You could be topping that up all the way through the boil with sweet-as sparge liquor as it boils down, giving you a higher gravity than topping up with water.

 

Keep at it mate, and please shoot me a PM on AHB any time if you need on the spot help. (Username = Phillo) My account is linked to my email which is linked to my phone, so you'll catch me for sure.

 

Good luck!

[Otto Von Blotto]

I'm currently getting between 70% and 80% efficiency into the FV at the moment with my 40L urn. I'm not sure what causes the differences, I do the same thing every time, but anyway. [lol]

I don't sparge but I do a mash out. My first batch was only 65% but they've all been above 70 since. I'm debating on my next batch whether or not to mash in less water in the urn (somewhere between 25 and 30L), and then do a dunk sparge after the mash out and use that to top it up to my preferred pre-boil vol of 32L to see what sort of effect it has.

[PhilboBaggins]

I'm currently getting between 70% and 80%

 

Freakin' way to go Kelsey! [happy]

 

That's as good if not better than a lot of 3V brewers mate. Further proof that you don't need a room full of gear to make beer. (Although I wouldn't say no if Yob offered me his brewery).

 

Must be the soundtrack that gives the extra 5-10%, hey? [cool]

 

You'd be disappointed in me today, I've decided to forego the Priest and Maiden for some old school punk. [biggrin]

[Canadian Eh!L]

Hey Scott,

 

I'm no real expert on AG/PM as I've only done a handful of these brews myself. Some have been decent and others have been down right bad. Problems have ranged from no head, poor carbonation, and shite taste! I think these are issues with bad recipe design to temp control. I have never had a problem with efficiency as I use a 3V set-up (mostly).

 

I guess what I'm getting at is... Keep you chin up, Mate! Home Brewing has a long learning curve and for me personally after 80-100 brews for every great one there is some real disasters that I would love to have back.[lol] There Is only a handful of these that I have ever repeated[crying] .

[GrahamB8]

As said above I also dont BIAB so Im reluctant to comment other than to repeat the sentiment of keep at it mate.

 

One thing I would say (but again Im not a BIAB brewer) is that your water to grain ratio in your mash is around double what is 'recommended' (in a mash tun arragement). I have also seen evidence that the 2-2.5 ratio doesnt make much difference but as I understand it the PH of the wort will be differ.

 

Maybe try a thicker mash, a mashout and sparging to get the volume, I wouldnt put cold water in before cubing, thats asking for trouble.

 

Good luck!

[Lotm]

Hi guys,

 

Thanks for all of the advice and encouragement. While I am a little down with my lack of progress, I am more than determined to continue learning and improving. I\u2019ve spent too much time and money to give up now (SWMBO would certainly agree).

 

Firstly, I need to answer a couple of questions raised in your responses:

\u2022\tMy stove is rubbish [crying] , thus the smaller volume boils.

\u2022\tI just drain the bag, as I read that squeezing would extract tannins.

 

Essentially, this is what I am planning on doing next brew day involving a partial:

\u2022\tTry a thicker mash, mashing my 2-2.5 Kg in 6L of water.

\u2022\tAlways do mash out (and do it consistently across brews)

\u2022\tDunk sparge with 5-6L of water, using sparge runnings to achieve boil volume of 10.5L, plus a little extra. It will still have to be capped at 10.5L due to my crappy stove. [sad]

\u2022\tTop up boil with remaining sparge runnings (if any) throughout the boil.

\u2022\tChill the wort in an ice bath.

\u2022\tEventually buy a gas burner to increase my boil volume and get me out of the kitchen.

 

Here are some questions regarding your responses:

\u2022\tShould I squeeze the bag when removing from the wort?

\u2022\tWill adding excess sparge runnings throughout the boil drastically affect hop utilisation?

\u2022\tHow will adding cold water to the cube before cubing ask for trouble? (I assume this may invite infection)

\u2022\tI used to chill the wort in an ice bath but it seemed to take forever to get to pitching temp. Does chilling have to be lightning fast and if so, how fast does chilling need to be to avoid chill haze?

 

Again, thanks for all of the advice and encouragement. Here\u2019s hoping in a couple of months, I look back at this post and laugh at what a twat I am. [lol]

 

[Hairy]

Here are some questions regarding your responses:

\u2022\tShould I squeeze the bag when removing from the wort?

\u2022\tWill adding excess sparge runnings throughout the boil drastically affect hop utilisation?

\u2022\tHow will adding cold water to the cube before cubing ask for trouble? (I assume this may invite infection)

\u2022\tI used to chill the wort in an ice bath but it seemed to take forever to get to pitching temp. Does chilling have to be lightning fast and if so, how fast does chilling need to be to avoid chill haze?

 

Again, thanks for all of the advice and encouragement. Here\u2019s hoping in a couple of months, I look back at this post and laugh at what a twat I am. [lol]

It's good to see you aren't giving up.

 

Again, I am far from an expert on this but I will have a go at answering your questions.

 

1. Squeezing the bag - there has been a lot of literature in the past about squeezing bags and extracting tannins. I think now most people believe that the tannin extraction has more to do with Ph than temperature.

 

I think most people squeeze now. I didn't on my first two brews but have squeezed ever since and haven't noticed any astringency. I don't go nuts with the squeeze but some people squeeze the crap out of it.

 

2. Second runnings - I don't think this will affect hop utilisation too much. But will definitely increase efficiency. Just make sure that the extra you add is still given a decent boil.

 

3. Cool water in cube - no idea mate [biggrin]

 

4. Chilling - it doesn't have to be instantaneous. My partials usually take around 30-40 to get to my desired temp. My AG batches are bigger volumes and take about 45-60 minutes to get to the right temp.

 

A tip with chilling. Don't add any ice at first. Just use cold water for the first two changes and then add the ice. If you add the ice at first it will just melt and heat up so it is a waste. I have started doing this on my last handful of batches and it works well.

 

Good luck with it mate. I think your next brew should be a simple recipe; a malty beer with minimal hops so that you can concentrate on your technique.

 

And you would be more of a twat if you gave up and didn't ask for help. Plus a twat wouldn't name a beer after Spaceballs. I actually had a brew called "Spaceballs" [wink]

[Otto Von Blotto]

I'm currently getting between 70% and 80%

 

Freakin' way to go Kelsey! [happy]

 

That's as good if not better than a lot of 3V brewers mate. Further proof that you don't need a room full of gear to make beer. (Although I wouldn't say no if Yob offered me his brewery).

 

Must be the soundtrack that gives the extra 5-10%, hey? [cool]

 

You'd be disappointed in me today, I've decided to forego the Priest and Maiden for some old school punk. [biggrin]

 

Haha cheers, I'm not really sure why I get that, but it's not something I'm complaining about that's for sure. I might have to start using less base malt grains to keep the ABV between 5 and 5.5% instead of creeping up to 6% [lol]

 

Unfortunately though, I've had to go and put a new motherboard and re-install windows into this machine (or get Dad to do it more accurately), so I've lost all my Beersmith recipes[crying] Oh well.. guess I'll just go and re configure everything. At least it will give me something to do on a boring Sunday night after work. [lol]

 

[PhilboBaggins]

Hi Scott, most of my responses will be the same as Hairy's.

 

Should I squeeze the bag when removing from the wort?

 

I don't because I'm paranoid about breaking it, but plenty of BIABers do this nowadays. Will get you a few more points too.

 

Will adding excess sparge runnings throughout the boil drastically affect hop utilisation?

 

Not sure about that, but one thing that should be noted is that if your stove is as terrible as you say, then adding some room temp sparge runnings may stop the boil for several minutes at a time. One thing you could try would be to have them in a smaller saucepan so that they could be heated up at the time you want to add them, thereby keeping your nice boil.

 

How will adding cold water to the cube before cubing ask for trouble? (I assume this may invite infection)

 

The reason no-chill is reasonably risk free as far as infection goes is due to the inside of the vessel being pasteurised by the scalding liquid covering it as it cools down over several hours. Because there's no yeast going in yet, it would be far more vulnerable if it were allowed to cool too much before the vessel is sealed.

 

I used to chill the wort in an ice bath but it seemed to take forever to get to pitching temp. Does chilling have to be lightning fast and if so, how fast does chilling need to be to avoid chill haze?

 

Not sure about chill haze, but my first few batches were allowed to cool overnight in the pot![surprised

 

They were still okay, but I'd say I was probably asking for trouble.[rightful]

[SteveM33]

Scott, your software figures are up the creek which will be why you can't figure out your efficiency.

 

your recipe clearly has only 2.5kg grain yet at the bottom it says "total grain weight is 4.2kg"

 

1.25 kg Traditional Ale Malt (6.2 EBC) Grain 1 29.8 %

1.00 kg Pilsner(Barrett Burston) (3.5 EBC)Grain 2 23.8 %

0.25 kg Munich Malt (17.7 EBC)Grain 3 6.0 %

 

Total Grain Weight: 4.20 kg

 

 

now with regards to no-chill....

the purpose of placing boiling hot wort in the cube helps sterilise the cube. By adding cold water to the cube before you fill it, essentially is slow chill, you then are not achieving the sterilisation factor as the wort is not hot enough for the length of time required for proper sterilisation. Therefore, the probability of an infection is much higher in the cube. You can continue to do what you are doing but you need to realise that you are giving yourself a greater chance for an infection.

 

To squeeze or not to squeeze.....

I BIAB and my first 20 or so brews I squeezed the bag. Have never had problem with astringent tastes. These days I just hang the bag and let it drain with a gentle squeeze at the end so it won't drip on the floor as I get rid of the spent grain. Squeezing serves no other purpose for me. Note though, I have noticed that the wort appears clearer when I don't squeeze. I get 75% consistently with a fairly fine crush of grain. I don't sparge and I run my mill so you can only just put a credit card through.

 

I no-chill but a couple of times I have ran out of time due to other unexpected priorities so have just wrapped the urn in glad wrap and ran the wort directly into the fermenter the next day. I understand I took a risk doing this but I didn't really have a choice at the time. Both times I did this I never had a problem, if I am to keep doing it then it is only a matter of time before the inevitable.

 

[Lotm]

Thanks again for all the advice. The 4.2kg of grain includes all fermentables including extracts added after the boil. The pre boil gravity is based on the mash at the pre boil volume.