Guest Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 Hi guys. The last 4 brews I put down were my first ventures into using grain additives in my brewing. I have tasted the first of those 4 brews, & am very impressed with what even 250-300gms of grain has added in quality & flavour into my brew(s). Thank you to all of those that gave me the steeping advice/grain type advice etc. leading up to those brews. [joyful] What I would like to know is if I want to purely create a bitterness from a hop, what is the best sequence to do this while steeping grain as part of your cook? Can they be done in conjunction? Do they have to be done separately? Once a hop has been boiled for a certain amount of time, will further steeping increase it's bitterness output? If so by what sort of ratio on a pot that has been taken off the heat that you have added grain into for steeping purposes. I'm just having a little trouble with my sequencing to attain correct bitterness from my hop addition when including it with a grain steep. Any guidance would be appreciated. Beer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 Once a hop has been boiled for a certain amount of time, will further steeping increase it's bitterness output? If so by what sort of ratio on a pot that has been taken off the heat that you have added grain into for steeping purposes. I'm just having a little trouble with my sequencing to attain correct bitterness from my hop addition when including it with a grain steep. Hey Lusty, I think I know what you are asking. Sequence - steep grains then boil hops You steep your grains for, say 30 minutes. Then remove the grains and boil the liquid. This becomes the liquid (or part of) for the hop boil. Then count down your hop additions from there. If you boiled hops for 30-40 minutes, then used that liquid at a hot temperature to steep grains, you would continue to extract some more bitterness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 11, 2012 Author Share Posted November 11, 2012 Thanks Hairy. You are spot on (as usual). I'm pretty sure I had that down pat ok. It's when you add a further hop steep into the mix is what screwed me up. Sorry I did fail to mention that in the first post. [innocent] I'm guessing that a further hop steep in the mix (on top of the grain steep/hop boil) is what needs to be done separately? Correct-a-mundo? Or am I just becoming Dumb & Dumber! [lol] Beer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lotm Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 Yeah I've only steeped grain, then boiled hops. I haven't steeped hops after that. I'm with you Beer, I assume you would steep hops separately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 11, 2012 Author Share Posted November 11, 2012 Thanks Lotm. That's what I figured. But here is the really interesting question... If you boil a hop for 30mins, then steep that hop for a further 30mins, is the final bitterness produced by that hop the same for if it was boiled for the entire 60min duration period? If it is not, what could you expect to be the reduction in calculated bitterness of that hop by a 30min boil/30min steep vs a 60min boil? I'd be interested in the facts. Beer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 I don't know how much more bitterness it would extract by boiling the hop for 30 and then leaving it in the pot and steeping it for another 30 mins. I'm not saying it wouldn't extract any, but just not sure how much. Normally when a recipe calls for hops to be steeped, it's done after the boil. So the sequence would be, steep the grains, remove grains and boil the liquid and do your hop boils, then take it off the heat and add more hops and steep those. Of course, you'd leave the boiled ones in there too, so it's not really done separately, it's just done afterwards. At least that's how I've always done it. [lol] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Here is a thread which discusses hop utilisation and temperature. AHB - Hop Utilisation & Temperature Lusty, I didn't realise you were talking about steeping hops at the end. I thought you meant you would reverse the sequence and steep the grain after the hop boil. For steeping hops, either do it separately or add them at flame out. You will get a little bit of bitterness but nothing substantial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 Thanks for the link Hairy. I read about 8-9 posts in & they are certainly talking about the scenario I posed. I'll finish reading the rest of that thread after work today. I'll probably give John Palmer's section on hop utilisation (that Yob gave me a link to sometime back) another look as well. I'll try to adapt that into the way the hops & grain are sequenced in the Nelson's Light recipe. It's a little different than a normal cook, because the base wort is the LDM, then the bittering hop is added at start of boil, then 30 mins later, it's taken off the heat for the second hop additon (I assume flavour?) in conjunction with the grain & steeped for a further 30mins. The aroma hop addition is the dry hop, instead of late boil addition? I'll get my head around it soon. [tongue] Thanks again. Beer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Steeping hops after a boil is normally done for aroma, although it probably extracts some flavour as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 This image may help you.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 Thanks for the chart again Bill. It certainly helped me when I saw you first post it a few months back, to understand what a hop will add to a brew when boiled for different time lengths as part of a cook. What I'm asking is a little different in this thread... Will a hop that is boiled for a full 60 minutes, produce more bitterness than the same hop that is boiled for 30 minutes & then steeped for a further 30 minutes? Anthony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 yes... no... what? in what scenario would that happen? it's either in the boil or it aint. if it's at Isomerisation temperature you are getting bitterness, there is cross over in all areas of hop additions. 10min IPA for example has ALL the hops thrown in at 10 mins.. you get bitterness, flavour and aroma. [annoyed] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 yes... no... what? in what scenario would that happen? it's either in the boil or it aint. Hi Yob. If you have a look at the recipe cook instructions for PB2's Nelson's Light, you will understand why I have asked the question. The Centennial hop used in that recipe as the bittering hop is boiled with 500gms of LDM for 30mins, then the cook pot is removed from the heat, the grain additive is added in & stirred, as is an additional hop additive & that whole mix is then steeped for 30mins. As helpful as Bill's chart is, it only relates to what can be expected from a rolling boil, not a slowly lowering temp steep. I didn't think the question was that unreasonable to ask. Anthony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 is it still at Isomerisation temps during the steep? Yes.. are you still extracting bitterness? Yes... I dont believe them to be great instructions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 The centennial hops that you added at the 30 minute mark will continue to have bitterness extracted whist the steeping wort is still hot. I have read that bitterness will continue to be extracted whilst the wort temp remains above 70-80 degrees. As to how much bitterness is extracted, I have no idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 Thank you Yob & Hairy. That's all I wanted to know. I'm using IanH's spreadsheet, so it is nice to know what levels of bitterness/flavour are being reached by this process when trying to construct recipes. Anthony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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