Coopers DIY Beer Stout: Need your help, guys!

[Shamus O'Sean]

1 hour ago, Brewkid said:

The shop only has three types of cans: Blonde, Dark Ale and Stout.

I know someone brew a "toucan" stout combining Dark Ale and Stout together but I would rather use the Stout only, because I'm afraid the mix of both may compromise the "stoutness" of the beer 

Regarding Muscovado sugar, I have learnt that it was some kind of "molasses":

It tastes great, but I'm afraid using too much of it would make the beer too sweet or give a weird taste 

Right now, my sugar bill would be an imitation of Cooper Brew Extract 1 (60% dextrose, 40% maltodextrin).
So I would use 30% dextrose, 30% muscovado, 40% maltodextrin.

1. Is it too much muscovado, in your opinion? If yes, how should I modify my bill?

2. I have heard muscovado is not totally fermentable, what consequence can it have on the beer?

Thank you again to all of you for your answers and help! 

Given your choice of ingredients, I would do a toucan with the Stout and either the Blonde or the Dark Ale before I would contemplate mostly sugar additions.  The only risk is it might be a bit bitter for your liking.

I do not know anything about Muscovado Sugar, so I cannot help with Q1.

On Q2, if it is less fermentable, your final ABV will be a bit less.  In terms of flavour, it depends on what parts are not fermentable and what flavour they have.  I do not think whatever is residual would overtake the Stout base, but it might be detectable.

[Brewkid]

8 minutes ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

Given your choice of ingredients, I would do a toucan with the Stout and either the Blonde or the Dark Ale before I would contemplate mostly sugar additions.  The only risk is it might be a bit bitter for your liking.

I do not know anything about Muscovado Sugar, so I cannot help with Q1.

On Q2, if it is less fermentable, your final ABV will be a bit less.  In terms of flavour, it depends on what parts are not fermentable and what flavour they have.  I do not think whatever is residual would overtake the Stout base, but it might be detectable.

Thanks, Shamus.

The thing is I really want to keep the stout character of the beer (including low-medium bitterness) so the toucan might not be the better choice.

Thank you for your answer regarding Q2 also.
I don't mind losing a bit ABV, for dry stout is not supposed to be strong (Guinness is 4.2%).

[Brewkid]

1 hour ago, Kegory said:

Blonde would be good, IMO. Many of the recipes in the Recipe section of this website use two cans. Anyway, that's something to consider for the future.

I would be tempted, in your situation, to use 30% muscovado.

Not totally fermentable is good. It will add body to the beer, make it more "stouty." There will be a certain amount of unfermentables in the stout can. If everything was fermentable you'd end up with something similar to vodka, alcholic water with no taste.

Some dude here brewed the Stout kit with the Brew Enhancer 1 (60% dextrose, 40% maltodextrin) and according to him, it tasted great.

I might follow his lead, except I'd use 40% dextrose, 30% muscovado, 30% maltodextrin 

I might also brew only 20 liters instead of the supposed 23 liters, so the mix is a bit more "concentrate".

Edited November 24, 2023 by Brewkid

[Kegory]

7 minutes ago, Brewkid said:

Some dude here brewed the Stout kit with the Brew Enhancer 1 (60% dextrose, 40% maltodextrin) and according to him, it tasted great.

I might follow his lead, except I'd use 40% dextrose, 30% muscovado, 30% maltodextrin 

I might also brew only 20 liters instead of the supposed 23 liters, so the mix is a bit more "concentrate".

Good plan. Go for it. When it's done come back and let us know how it went in the What Are You Drinking thread.

[ChairmanDrew]

1 hour ago, Brewkid said:

Some dude here brewed the Stout kit with the Brew Enhancer 1 (60% dextrose, 40% maltodextrin) and according to him, it tasted great.

I might follow his lead, except I'd use 40% dextrose, 30% muscovado, 30% maltodextrin 

I might also brew only 20 liters instead of the supposed 23 liters, so the mix is a bit more "concentrate".

The coopers stout can is quite similar to the commercially available Cooper's Best Extra Stout, so you can't go too wrong. 20l is a good idea. I also wouldn't worry too much about getting a high ABV; even though most stouts are, they don't have to be (Guiness the obvious example).

[Kegory]

16 minutes ago, ChairmanDrew said:

The coopers stout can is quite similar to the commercially available Cooper's Best Extra Stout, so you can't go too wrong. 20l is a good idea. I also wouldn't worry too much about getting a high ABV; even though most stouts are, they don't have to be (Guiness the obvious example).

Back in ye olde days, when I first tried Guiness, the Draught wasn't available (at least not anywhere I knew) and what was served was the Foreign Extra Stout. That had quite a kick.

[Brewkid]

1 minute ago, Kegory said:

Back in ye olde days, when I first tried Guiness, the Draught wasn't available (at least not anywhere I knew) and what was served was the Foreign Extra Stout. That had quite a kick.

I only know the original draught and the can version of it.
I like the creamy texture and the low carbonation.

About carbonation, my friend recently brew a stout (all-grain) but it looks a bit too bubbly.
Do you have any tips of how to achieve Guinness-like low carb? Less priming sugar, I guess?

[Kegory]

21 minutes ago, Brewkid said:

I only know the original draught and the can version of it.
I like the creamy texture and the low carbonation.

About carbonation, my friend recently brew a stout (all-grain) but it looks a bit too bubbly.
Do you have any tips of how to achieve Guinness-like low carb? Less priming sugar, I guess?

The Guiness Draught cans have a nitrogen widget inside and I don't know any way to reproduce that creaminess and low carbonation level if you are bottling. If you were kegging you could gas it with nitro, I guess (I'm a bottler not a kegger).

The thing about home brewing, in my opinion, is not getting the perfect brew the first time (although you want to make it as good as you can) it's about making it better each time you do it. Some people here have been brewing for decades, I've only been brewing for months. But there is always something to learn no matter how long you have been doing it.

If I was brewing that now I would prime it with 6g/L of dextrose. That worked pretty well for my last batch, an Irish Red Ale. The stout will have more unfermentables than the red ale so I would think it would be a bit creamier and it wouldn't be too bubbly, IMO.

[ChairmanDrew]

12 hours ago, Kegory said:

Back in ye olde days, when I first tried Guiness, the Draught wasn't available (at least not anywhere I knew) and what was served was the Foreign Extra Stout. That had quite a kick.

Yeah, I used to drink that in Malaysia sometimes. It was a completely different product, strong and syrupy.

[Oldbloke]

23 hours ago, Kegory said:

I think @Oldbloke tried that.

Ummm,, i may have suggested it. Pretty sure i havent done that one. Bloody long time ago if i did.

 

But ive known blokes that have just used 2 cans and  brewed it. Black and tan was popular years ago. 

 

But if you have limited resourses why not just concentrate it. e.g. Instead of doing 23 litres make it say,,,16 litres.

Doing this will concentrate the stout flavour and increase the ABV.

After all, when you add LDME or any other adjunct/sugar for that matter your trying to increase the ABV without compromising taste, but for a price. Concentrating it will do both.

 

As someone mentioned,liquid malt is a good bet if its available.

 

Try to stay away from table sugar except for priming if possible.

 

P.S. You cant beat KISS. 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Oldbloke

[Kegory]

20 minutes ago, Oldbloke said:

Ummm,, i may have suggested it. Pretty sure i havent done that one. Bloody long time ago if i did.

 

But ive known blokes that have just used 2 cans and  brewed it. Black and tan was popular years ago. 

 

But if you have limited resourses why not just concentrate it. e.g. Instead of doing 23 litres make it say,,,16 litres.

Doing this will concentrate the stout flavour and increase the ABV.

After all, when you add LDME or any other adjunct/sugar for that matter your trying to increase the ABV without compromising taste, but for a price. Concentrating it will do both.

 

As someone mentioned,liquid malt is a good bet if its available.

 

Try to stay away from table sugar except for priming if possible.

 

P.S. You cant beat KISS. 

I guess you must have suggested it, or were considering it, OB. It wasn't too long ago, I've only been around this year.

[Oldbloke]

52 minutes ago, Kegory said:

I guess you must have suggested it, or were considering it, OB. It wasn't too long ago, I've only been around this year.

Fair enough. TBH I dont recal. It isnt a new idea.

[Kegory]

32 minutes ago, Oldbloke said:

Fair enough. TBH I dont recal. It isnt a new idea.

No worries mate. In my mind I have you as some kind of expert in that particular recipe. You spoke very authoritively on the subject. 

[Brewkid]

3 hours ago, Oldbloke said:

Ummm,, i may have suggested it. Pretty sure i havent done that one. Bloody long time ago if i did.

 

But ive known blokes that have just used 2 cans and  brewed it. Black and tan was popular years ago. 

 

But if you have limited resourses why not just concentrate it. e.g. Instead of doing 23 litres make it say,,,16 litres.

Doing this will concentrate the stout flavour and increase the ABV.

After all, when you add LDME or any other adjunct/sugar for that matter your trying to increase the ABV without compromising taste, but for a price. Concentrating it will do both.

 

As someone mentioned,liquid malt is a good bet if its available.

 

Try to stay away from table sugar except for priming if possible.

 

P.S. You cant beat KISS. 

Thank you, @Oldbloke.

I plan to brew 20 liters instead of 23.

My sugar bill will be the following: 450g dextrose (100% fermentable sugar), 250g dark muscovado (raw sugar, mostly fermentable but with some molasses remaining, for taste), 300g maltodextrin (to compensate for the thinning effect of dextrose, have a thicker body and a better foam retention). This sugar bill is somehow similar to Coopers brewing enhancer 1 (60% dextrose, 40% maltodextrin) with the muscovado added, for a little caramel/licorice note.

The brew enhancer that I am mimicking was made for a 23l batch.
Should I reduce the quantities, knowing I will only brew 20l?

I guess not, if I want the concentrate effect?

Edited November 25, 2023 by Brewkid

[Oldbloke]

@Brewkid

Hi,

TBH i would not add any molasses. Some like it. I dont. Tried it twice 1st time i think 250gr. 2nd time 100gr was too strong a flavour IMHO.

 

Not sure about dark sugar, i think it has molasses in it.

You are trying to improve a product you havent tried yet.

Since you cant get malt IMO you should only add some dextrose and maltotextrin  they will have little effect on the flavour.

brewing with less water will improve the flavour.

 

Also, stouts tend to develop a lot of bottle pressure. So suggest you prime about 7gr per litre rather than the std 8gr. Use table sugar.

 

[Oldbloke]

14 hours ago, Kegory said:

No worries mate. In my mind I have you as some kind of expert in that particular recipe. You spoke very authoritively on the subject. 

You drunk too much. Lol

Have made a lot of coopers stout over the years. Coppers make great kits. There is really no need to complicate the recipes. 

Add some malt and brew. 

Ive tried adding a few things to stout,

Coffee

Plumb jam

Molasses

Licqorish essence

Various malts

Plumbs

 

Coffee, malt and plumbs probably gave best results but these days mostly just coffee and malt because its so easy.

 

Next will be coopers irish stout which strangely ive never got around to doing.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Oldbloke

[Oldbloke]

Brew 621. It doesnt need to be complicated. A very nice stout bottled 25/10/22 Age does wonders for stout.

[Brewkid]

7 hours ago, Oldbloke said:

@Brewkid

Hi,

TBH i would not add any molasses. Some like it. I dont. Tried it twice 1st time i think 250gr. 2nd time 100gr was too strong a flavour IMHO.

 

Not sure about dark sugar, i think it has molasses in it.

You are trying to improve a product you havent tried yet.

Since you cant get malt IMO you should only add some dextrose and maltotextrin  they will have little effect on the flavour.

brewing with less water will improve the flavour.

 

Also, stouts tend to develop a lot of bottle pressure. So suggest you prime about 7gr per litre rather than the std 8gr. Use table sugar.

 

Thank you for your advices!

– How would you describe the flavor you obtained when adding (liquid?) molasses?

– I have ordered 500g dextrose and 500g maltodextrin.

– Thank you for the advice, regarding carbonation.
I'd like to have the same kind of low carb than Guinness. Would 7g/l do the trick?

[Oldbloke]

38 minutes ago, Brewkid said:

Thank you for your advices!

– How would you describe the flavor you obtained when adding (liquid?) molasses?

– I have ordered 500g dextrose and 500g maltodextrin.

– Thank you for the advice, regarding carbonation.
I'd like to have the same kind of low carb than Guinness. Would 7g/l do the trick?

With age the molassas over powers the stout flavour.  Again you modifying a beer you are yet to try

 

For little aging 8gr/ltr will be fine. But if you age more than say,, 4 months better to go for 7gr/ltr. Otherwise they may be over carbonated.  Suggest you try 7gr/ltr

Edited November 26, 2023 by Oldbloke

[Brewkid]

2 hours ago, Oldbloke said:

With age the molassas over powers the stout flavour.  Again you modifying a beer you are yet to try

 

For little aging 8gr/ltr will be fine. But if you age more than say,, 4 months better to go for 7gr/ltr. Otherwise they may be over carbonated.  Suggest you try 7gr/ltr

Tbh I'm not sure I will age this beer, because I live in a tropical country and I don't really have the temp conditions to make it age well...

Regarding carbonation, other people told me to put 4gr/l. Why such a big difference?

[ChairmanDrew]

4 hours ago, Brewkid said:

Tbh I'm not sure I will age this beer, because I live in a tropical country and I don't really have the temp conditions to make it age well...

Regarding carbonation, other people told me to put 4gr/l. Why such a big difference?

I go about 5g per litre, works fine for me. But that's straight into the bottles, not bulk priming. Don't know if there's a difference.

 

[Kegory]

5 hours ago, ChairmanDrew said:

I go about 5g per litre, works fine for me. But that's straight into the bottles, not bulk priming. Don't know if there's a difference.

 

In theory there is no difference between direct bottle priming and batch priming. In practice it all comes down to the execution.

Here are the first & last bottled of my Irish Red Ale, batch primed with dextrose at 6g/L (120g in 20L). I expected the first bottle, on the left, to be slightly less carbonated than the rest as a small amount of beer that sits in the tube leading to the tap doesn't get the priming sugar mixed through. The rest of the batch should be equal to the bottle on the right.

[Oldbloke]

It is to a point personal preference. But 5gr/L is def not enough. 

 

I always use white sugar. 

Coopers recomends 8gr. 

I do generally use 8gr/L for most brews. But as i said if you age the stout more than abt 4 month there will be a lot of pressure in the bottles. Stout does that over time.

 

6gr/L might be enough for some, i generally go abt 7gr/L for stout.

 

The one i posted earlier was 170gr/23L        (7.4)

[Brewkid]

3 hours ago, Oldbloke said:

It is to a point personal preference. But 5gr/L is def not enough. 

 

I always use white sugar. 

Coopers recomends 8gr. 

I do generally use 8gr/L for most brews. But as i said if you age the stout more than abt 4 month there will be a lot of pressure in the bottles. Stout does that over time.

 

6gr/L might be enough for some, i generally go abt 7gr/L for stout.

 

The one i posted earlier was 170gr/23L        (7.4)

Do you do bulk priming or each bottle individually?

Edited November 27, 2023 by Brewkid

[Oldbloke]

I do bulk prime for last 4 or 5 years.  But dont forget you have to allow for the additional water when you brew.

For example, for 23ltr brew i brew to 21ltr

Then add 2 ltrs of sugar syrup.

 

Procedure:

2ltrs very hot water + 180grams of white sugar in a sanitised jug.

Stir well to disolve the sugar.

Let it cool.

Add to brew gently stirring.

Wait about 20-30 minutes.

Bottle.