Cold Steeping Speciality Grains

[Triple B Brewing]

Hi @Coopers DIY Beer Team,

I am seeking some expert understanding around the process of Cold Steeping Speciality Grains

Its brew day for me today and I am currently brewing the TRENDY TROUSERS AMBER ALE and about to keg the VINTNER'S LAGER (both made to the Coopers recipes without deviation and both require steeping of specialty grains) and I have been wondering specifically about the following 3 things:

1. Why do Coopers recipes call for the steep to be placed in the fridge - other information I have read refers to steeping speciality grains at ambient temperature - So what is the ideal temp for cold steeping and what if any difference would a steep at ambient temperature make ?
2. How long should you cold steep for? - Can you steep for too long - what are the affects overtime - Is there an ideal timeframe (eg; like dry hopping)?
3. Given the final steeped tea is brought to the boil and then added to the FV - How important is the volume of steeping water - ie; does an extra volume of water used to steep the grains have an impact - if so, how ?

Thanks in advance 

Cheers 

[Back Brewing]

32 minutes ago, Triple B Brewing said:

Hi @Coopers DIY Beer Team,

I am seeking some expert understanding around the process of Cold Steeping Speciality Grains

Its brew day for me today and I am currently brewing the TRENDY TROUSERS AMBER ALE and about to keg the VINTNER'S LAGER (both made to the Coopers recipes without deviation and both require steeping of specialty grains) and I have been wondering specifically about the following 3 things:

1. Why do Coopers recipes call for the steep to be placed in the fridge - other information I have read refers to steeping speciality grains at ambient temperature - So what is the ideal temp for cold steeping and what if any difference would a steep at ambient temperature make ?
2. How long should you cold steep for? - Can you steep for too long - what are the affects overtime - Is there an ideal timeframe (eg; like dry hopping)?
3. Given the final steeped tea is brought to the boil and then added to the FV - How important is the volume of steeping water - ie; does an extra volume of water used to steep the grains have an impact - if so, how ?

Thanks in advance 

Cheers 

1. A cold steep produces more flavour and less tannins from the grain

2. Steep overnight I usually steep for about 18 hours I don't know if steeping too long does any harm but it would start to extract too much tannins.

3. Depending on the amount of grains 2 or 3 litres is quite sufficient before you boil the liquid I suggest transferring to another vessel to strain it as there will be a fair amount of gunk at the bottom of the saucepan which will give off flavours if scorched

I hope this helps 

Edited March 5 by Back Brewing

[Triple B Brewing]

3 hours ago, Back Brewing said:

1. A cold steep produces more flavour and less tannins from the grain

2. Steep overnight I usually steep for about 18 hours I don't know if steeping too long does any harm but it would start to extract too much tannins.

3. Depending on the amount of grains 2 or 3 litres is quite sufficient before you boil the liquid I suggest transferring to another vessel to strain it as there will be a fair amount of gunk at the bottom of the saucepan which will give off flavours if scorched

I hope this helps 

Thanks @Back Brewing while I appreciate your reply, I am familiar with purpose of cold steeping as I have already made many Coopers recipes over the years that include this process. 16 to be precise  (Roger, Roger Ale, Red Rattler Ale, Golden Ale, Mister Sinister, Cog Work IPA, Beer O'clock Session IPA, Yorkshire Square, Coopers XPA, Swooping Season Brown Ale, Steam Beer, Goodnight America, Royal Lager, Nut Brown Ale, Dass Alto, Vintner's Lager & now the Trendy Trousers Amber Ale). 

I am interested to understand why the brewers who have crafted these recipes stipulate differing methods and timings, for example the RED RATTLER ALE has 300gm of Caramunich III Malt steeped in 2 litres of hot water for 1 hour, yet the NUT BROWN ALE has 200gm of Light Crystal Malt steeped in 2 litres of hot water for 30 minutes, or the GOLDEN ALE has 200gm of Light Crystal Malt steeped in 2 litres of hot water for 1 hour, and the BEER O'CLOCK SESSION IPA is the same?

As posted above, specifically, I am hoping Frank or one of the other fine @Coopers DIY Beer Team members can provide me with some technical understanding and rational behind:

1. The affects of temperature on a cold steep (ie; why are some hot, and others are cold steeped and is there really that much difference to a fridge and ambient temp steeping)
2. The affects of time on a steep and if there is an ideal timeframe to maximise, or if you can do damage with a timeframe that is too long, and;
3. If extra volume of water used to steep grains has an impact (given the end result is topped up with make up water for the final volume of wort), and if so what ?

FYI, I always use a muslin bag (at least 3 times the size of the measured grains) to hold my speciality grains in when steeping, it makes life so much easier just to fish out a bag full of grain rather than trying to sieve the steep prior to pouring it into the FV.

 Thanks again @Back Brewing, lets see what we can find out on the technical side of things eh 

Cheers ! 

[Back Brewing]

8 minutes ago, Triple B Brewing said:

Thanks @Back Brewing while I appreciate your reply, I am familiar with purpose of cold steeping as I have already made many Coopers recipes over the years that include this process. 16 to be precise  (Roger, Roger Ale, Red Rattler Ale, Golden Ale, Mister Sinister, Cog Work IPA, Beer O'clock Session IPA, Yorkshire Square, Coopers XPA, Swooping Season Brown Ale, Steam Beer, Goodnight America, Royal Lager, Nut Brown Ale, Dass Alto, Vintner's Lager & now the Trendy Trousers Amber Ale). 

I am interested to understand why the brewers who have crafted these recipes stipulate differing methods and timings, for example the RED RATTLER ALE has 300gm of Caramunich III Malt steeped in 2 litres of hot water for 1 hour, yet the NUT BROWN ALE has 200gm of Light Crystal Malt steeped in 2 litres of hot water for 30 minutes, or the GOLDEN ALE has 200gm of Light Crystal Malt steeped in 2 litres of hot water for 1 hour, and the BEER O'CLOCK SESSION IPA is the same?

As posted above, specifically, I am hoping Frank or one of the other fine @Coopers DIY Beer Team members can provide me with some technical understanding and rational behind:

1. The affects of temperature on a cold steep (ie; why are some hot, and others are cold steeped and is there really that much difference to a fridge and ambient temp steeping)
2. The affects of time on a steep and if there is an ideal timeframe to maximise, or if you can do damage with a timeframe that is too long, and;
3. If extra volume of water used to steep grains has an impact (given the end result is topped up with make up water for the final volume of wort), and if so what ?

FYI, I always use a muslin bag (at least 3 times the size of the measured grains) to hold my speciality grains in when steeping, it makes life so much easier just to fish out a bag full of grain rather than trying to sieve the steep prior to pouring it into the FV.

 Thanks again @Back Brewing, lets see what we can find out on the technical side of things eh 

Cheers ! 

No probs I use a hop sock as well but stuff still gets through have a look at the grains that are cold steeped they will be chocolate malt and dark crystal malt etc. The darker specialty grain I always cold steep and I think you will find that is when Coopers advise a cold steep because of the tannins.

[Aussiekraut]

16 hours ago, Triple B Brewing said:

Hi @Coopers DIY Beer Team,

I am seeking some expert understanding around the process of Cold Steeping Speciality Grains

Its brew day for me today and I am currently brewing the TRENDY TROUSERS AMBER ALE and about to keg the VINTNER'S LAGER (both made to the Coopers recipes without deviation and both require steeping of specialty grains) and I have been wondering specifically about the following 3 things:

1. Why do Coopers recipes call for the steep to be placed in the fridge - other information I have read refers to steeping speciality grains at ambient temperature - So what is the ideal temp for cold steeping and what if any difference would a steep at ambient temperature make ?
2. How long should you cold steep for? - Can you steep for too long - what are the affects overtime - Is there an ideal timeframe (eg; like dry hopping)?
3. Given the final steeped tea is brought to the boil and then added to the FV - How important is the volume of steeping water - ie; does an extra volume of water used to steep the grains have an impact - if so, how ?

Thanks in advance 

Cheers 

I suppose cold steeping in the fridge helps keep things like wild yeasts or other nasties at bat. Not that they'd survive the boil. When I made the ultra-low ABV beer, it also said to cold steep in a fridge to avoid infection. I find this a little silly since the liquor from the steep gets "mashed" for the normal duration and then boiled. Any nasty that would survive this would make me really worried  On the other hand, if wild yeast gets a hold of things and does start fermenting, it may have some impact on the taste. Not a huge impact but maybe enough to be noticed. 

The duration of the steep depends on you really. 12 hours is good, 24 hours is possible but I wouldn't go any further.

I wouldn't think the volume is particularly important, as long as you have enough for the steep. 2l is certainly enough and I don't think more water will give you a better result. What is important is that you have enough water to cover all grain, even when the grain volume increases due to water absorption. We're only talking about 150ml for 250g of grain, so it isn't really an issue. Stick with the 2l for 250g and you'll be fine.

 

[iBooz2]

15 hours ago, Triple B Brewing said:

Thanks @Back Brewing while I appreciate your reply, I am familiar with purpose of cold steeping as I have already made many Coopers recipes over the years that include this process. 16 to be precise  (Roger, Roger Ale, Red Rattler Ale, Golden Ale, Mister Sinister, Cog Work IPA, Beer O'clock Session IPA, Yorkshire Square, Coopers XPA, Swooping Season Brown Ale, Steam Beer, Goodnight America, Royal Lager, Nut Brown Ale, Dass Alto, Vintner's Lager & now the Trendy Trousers Amber Ale). 

I am interested to understand why the brewers who have crafted these recipes stipulate differing methods and timings, for example the RED RATTLER ALE has 300gm of Caramunich III Malt steeped in 2 litres of hot water for 1 hour, yet the NUT BROWN ALE has 200gm of Light Crystal Malt steeped in 2 litres of hot water for 30 minutes, or the GOLDEN ALE has 200gm of Light Crystal Malt steeped in 2 litres of hot water for 1 hour, and the BEER O'CLOCK SESSION IPA is the same?

As posted above, specifically, I am hoping Frank or one of the other fine @Coopers DIY Beer Team members can provide me with some technical understanding and rational behind:

1. The affects of temperature on a cold steep (ie; why are some hot, and others are cold steeped and is there really that much difference to a fridge and ambient temp steeping)
2. The affects of time on a steep and if there is an ideal timeframe to maximise, or if you can do damage with a timeframe that is too long, and;
3. If extra volume of water used to steep grains has an impact (given the end result is topped up with make up water for the final volume of wort), and if so what ?

FYI, I always use a muslin bag (at least 3 times the size of the measured grains) to hold my speciality grains in when steeping, it makes life so much easier just to fish out a bag full of grain rather than trying to sieve the steep prior to pouring it into the FV.

 Thanks again @Back Brewing, lets see what we can find out on the technical side of things eh 

Cheers ! 

@Triple B Brewing,   at a guess, the hot steeping of grains, I suspect is to bring out the colour and flavour more quickly, sort of a mini mash effect although most specialty malts have 0 degree of Lintner. and cannot be mashed on their own.  The cold steep, I suspect extracts the dextrin's more so rather than the colour or the flavours of the specialty malt.

I have always done my cold steeps overnight in the fridge as I reckon it would go mouldy very quickly if left out at ambient.  Where a K&K recipe called for a hot steep, I just incorporated that into my mini mash as I usually added the equivalent of a tin of liquid malt or more as base malts anyway.

And I always used more volume of water than was recommended in cold steeps recipe's just to cover for grain absorption and more so the boil off later.

Edited March 6 by iBooz2

[Triple B Brewing]

14 hours ago, Aussiekraut said:

I suppose cold steeping in the fridge helps keep things like wild yeasts or other nasties at bat. Not that they'd survive the boil. When I made the ultra-low ABV beer, it also said to cold steep in a fridge to avoid infection. I find this a little silly since the liquor from the steep gets "mashed" for the normal duration and then boiled. Any nasty that would survive this would make me really worried  On the other hand, if wild yeast gets a hold of things and does start fermenting, it may have some impact on the taste. Not a huge impact but maybe enough to be noticed. 

The duration of the steep depends on you really. 12 hours is good, 24 hours is possible but I wouldn't go any further.

I wouldn't think the volume is particularly important, as long as you have enough for the steep. 2l is certainly enough and I don't think more water will give you a better result. What is important is that you have enough water to cover all grain, even when the grain volume increases due to water absorption. We're only talking about 150ml for 250g of grain, so it isn't really an issue. Stick with the 2l for 250g and you'll be fine.

 

11 hours ago, iBooz2 said:

@Triple B Brewing,   at a guess, the hot steeping of grains, I suspect is to bring out the colour and flavour more quickly, sort of a mini mash effect although most specialty malts have 0 degree of Lintner. and cannot be mashed on their own.  The cold steep, I suspect extracts the dextrin's more so rather than the colour or the flavours of the specialty malt.

I have always done my cold steeps overnight in the fridge as I reckon it would go mouldy very quickly if left out at ambient.  Where a K&K recipe called for a hot steep, I just incorporated that into my mini mash as I usually added the equivalent of a tin of liquid malt or more as base malts anyway.

And I always used more volume of water than was recommended in cold steeps recipe's just to cover for grain absorption and more so the boil off later.

Hi @Aussiekraut and @iBooz2, guys thank you very much for your input - I really do honestly appreciate it, but without wanting to sound even a little ungrateful or full of myself, I feel I already have that broad understanding or inkling.

As a Kit n Bits brewer of solely Coopers recipes using Coopers products for almost that last 3 years I'm really hopeful that Frank or one of the other fine @Coopers DIY Beer Team members can provide us with some technical fact, understanding and rational behind these 3 questions:

1. The affects of temperature on a cold steep (ie; why are some hot, and others are cold steeped and is there really that much difference to a fridge and ambient temp steeping)
2. The affects of time on a steep and if there is an ideal timeframe to maximise, or if you can do damage with a timeframe that is too long, and;
3. If extra volume of water used to steep grains has an impact (given the end result is topped up with makeup water for the final volume of wort), and if so what ?

I am looking to flesh out this info for not only myself, but also other Kit n Bits brewers both now and those of the future - I think it is really useful to not just follow what you are being told to do in a recipe, but also have an understanding of why you are doing certain things, and then looking for success in the results of that process (in this case, "cold steeping of specialty grains").

I have come across this article "Guide to Steeping Grains for Beer Brewing", by the Jovial Monk (additional information in this article around when to sparge and when not to sparge, I found interesting. BYO also state that there is a need to manage the specific gravity of your steeping water: ensuring it is over 1.010 before adding the grains) . This Jovial Monk article has provided me with the closest information I have been seeking, but I am still hopeful I can have either confirmation of this referenced information is in fact correct, or some specific expert knowledge that I can rely on and trust from Frank or the Coopers Team.

Are you able to help me Frank @Coopers DIY Beer Team?

Thanks in advance 

Cheers ! 

[Coopers DIY Beer Team]

15 hours ago, Triple B Brewing said:

• The affects of temperature on a cold steep (ie; why are some hot, and others are cold steeped and is there really that much difference to a fridge and ambient temp steeping)
• The affects of time on a steep and if there is an ideal timeframe to maximise, or if you can do damage with a timeframe that is too long, and;
• If extra volume of water used to steep grains has an impact (given the end result is topped up with makeup water for the final volume of wort), and if so what ?

An overnight cold steep extracts flavor and less tannin/astringency from roast malts than a 30 - 60-minute hot steep. A hot steep increases solubility and gets the same job done quicker if tannin extraction is not an issue, i.e. crystal malts. 

Due to the presence of lactobacillus and other bacteria in the malt, ambient temperature, overnight steeping should be avoided. So a longer steep in the refrigerator will limit bacterial activity. 

The purpose of steeping is to extract sugars, flavour and colour compounds. These things happen pretty quickly at higher temperatures, so anything longer than an hour or so is just a waste of your time. Bearing in mind that starch conversion has already taken place in the maltings.

Too much water runs the risk of extracting more than a desirable level of tannin. 

The subtle difference you may notice between recipes is down to the fact that they have been written over a period of 12 - 15 years by several different brewers from different schools of thought. 

 

Cheers Frank. 

[Triple B Brewing]

4 hours ago, Coopers DIY Beer Team said:

An overnight cold steep extracts flavor and less tannin/astringency from roast malts than a 30 - 60-minute hot steep. A hot steep increases solubility and gets the same job done quicker if tannin extraction is not an issue, i.e. crystal malts. 

Due to the presence of lactobacillus and other bacteria in the malt, ambient temperature, overnight steeping should be avoided. So a longer steep in the refrigerator will limit bacterial activity. 

The purpose of steeping is to extract sugars, flavour and colour compounds. These things happen pretty quickly at higher temperatures, so anything longer than an hour or so is just a waste of your time. Bearing in mind that starch conversion has already taken place in the maltings.

Too much water runs the risk of extracting more than a desirable level of tannin. 

The subtle difference you may notice between recipes is down to the fact that they have been written over a period of 12 - 15 years by several different brewers from different schools of thought. 

 

Cheers Frank. 

Perfect - thank you Frank - that all makes absolute sense to me and I am now better informed to make the best brewing decisions - so thank you very muchly for your insight and shared info