BryanA Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 Hopefully someone can help me shed some light to my problem... I brewed my first batch of coopers homebrew with the coopers kit. The kit came with a Lager hopped malt extract and 1kg of coopers brewing sugar. After following all instructions very close, my brew ended up with a cidery smell and flavor. Now, i have read that cider taste can come from an infection, still being green, and that certain sugars used in brewing will cause this result... I doubt very serious my brew was infected, so can someone shed light on the sugar concept? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB2 Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 Yeast can throw an ester called acetaldehyde. This may be detected as a green apple, cidery character and thankfully dissipates over time in the bottle. Some people are more sensitive to this ester than others so I can't really indicate a time for the conditioning to take effect - but it's more like months than weeks. In order of most likely cause, this is generally related to the amount of simple sugars (800g of Dextrose in 1kg of Brewing Sugar), ferment temperature, the strain and amount of healthy yeast and other causes that carry no significance for homebrewers. Some people confuse cidery with vinegary - if it has a sour taste, acetobacter has taken hold of the brew and it will only get worse in the bottle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeiHomeBrewer Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 Hopefully someone can help me shed some light to my problem... I brewed my first batch of coopers homebrew with the coopers kit. The kit came with a Lager hopped malt extract and 1kg of coopers brewing sugar. After following all instructions very close, my brew ended up with a cidery smell and flavor. Now, i have read that cider taste can come from an infection, still being green, and that certain sugars used in brewing will cause this result... I doubt very serious my brew was infected, so can someone shed light on the sugar concept? It is most likely from that 75% sucrose that is in that "Brewing Sugar" Use dry malt next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeiHomeBrewer Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 Yeast can throw an ester called acetaldehyde. This may be detected as a green apple' date=' cidery character and [i']thankfully [/i]dissipates over time in the bottle. Some people are more sensitive to this ester than others so I can't really indicate a time for the conditioning to take effect - but it's more like months than weeks. In order of most likely cause, this is generally related to the amount of simple sugars (800g of Dextrose in 1kg of Brewing Sugar), ferment temperature, the strain and amount of healthy yeast and other causes that carry no significance for homebrewers. Some people confuse cidery with vinegary - if it has a sour taste, acetobacter has taken hold of the brew and it will only get worse in the bottle. According to your product description, your Brewing Sugar contains sucrose, not dextrose: "Coopers Brewing Sugar (1kg) contains sucrose and maltodextrin. The sucrose will ferment out completely. The maltodextrin is not fermentable and remains in the brew adding to the body and head retention whilst not imparting any sweetness or flavours. A simple improvement to all your brews." While BE1 says: "Coopers Brew Enhancer 1 (1kg) contains dextrose and maltodextrin. The dextrose will ferment out completely with no residual cidery flavours whilst the maltodextrin does not ferment thus improving the body, mouthfeel and head retention. Recommended for use with your lighter style beers such as Lager, Draught and Pilsener. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB2 Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 Lennie, you are going of old notes - the old formula (Coopers/CSR Brewing Sugar) was 75% Sucrose and 25% maltodextrin. When we cut across to Coopers branded products (red and orange bag) we kept this forumla. Now, none of the Coopers bag-in-a-box Sugars contain sucrose. Coopers Brewing Sugar contains 800g of Dextrose and 200g of Maltodextrin. One bonus with this Brewers Guild is that you get to talk directly to our Home Brew Product Development Manager - that person is me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muddy Waters Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 You forgot the pinch of love, Paul. Every Cooper's product always comes with a pinch of love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeiHomeBrewer Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 Lennie, you are going of old notes - the old formula (Coopers/CSR Brewing Sugar) was 75% Sucrose and 25% maltodextrin. When we cut across to Coopers branded products (red and orange bag) we kept this forumla. Now, none of the Coopers bag-in-a-box Sugars contain sucrose. Coopers Brewing Sugar contains 800g of Dextrose and 200g of Maltodextrin. One bonus with this Brewers Guild is that you get to talk directly to our Home Brew Product Development Manager - that person is me... That being the case, I am failing to see the difference between the Brewing Sugar and BE1 if they both have identical ingredients. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BryanA Posted March 3, 2010 Author Share Posted March 3, 2010 Thanks to everyone and their input!! I think I will give the dry malt instead of the sugar on my next batch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB2 Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 The difference lies with the ratio of the blended ingredients Brewing Sugar - 800g Dextrose, 200g Maltodextrin BE1 - 600g Dextrose,400g Maltodextrin BE2 - 500g Dextrose, 250g Maltodextrin, 250g Light Dry Malt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeiHomeBrewer Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 The difference lies with the ratio of the blended ingredients Brewing Sugar - 800g Dextrose, 200g Maltodextrin BE1 - 600g Dextrose,400g Maltodextrin BE2 - 500g Dextrose, 250g Maltodextrin, 250g Light Dry Malt Thanks for the clarification. I am still puzzled by the influx of people coming to my YouTube channel wanting to know why their beers taste like apple cider that have used the Brewing Sugar. I have been brewing for a number of years (9), and I've only had one batch give that flavour and aroma, and I used sucrose with that batch (as per the substandard instructions). I am aware of the ester by-products that the Cooper's yeast give off, but I wouldn't exactly call it cidery; in fact, I rather like the flavour profile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB2 Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Several years ago, when lobbying management to change our Coopers Brewing Sugar ingedients, I ran a number of trial brews comparing the amount of acetaldehyde produced by 1kg of Sucrose as opposed to 1kg of Dextrose - all other variables were identical; ingredients, ferment temperature, bottling time, etc. The results showed consistantly, by unit weight, dextrose throws 20% less acetaldehyde than sucrose. However, one should take into account: 1kg of dextrose (dextrose monohydrate has a water molecule) yields approximately the same amount of alcohol as 900g of sucrose. Therefore the actual difference is closer to 10% rather than 20%. So yes, both sucrose and dextrose used to excess will throw obvious acetaldehyde. Work to the rule of keeping simple sugar additions at or below 20% of the total fermentables and the resultng beer is less likely to show acetaldehyde. Don't be put off using sucrose or dextrose in your brews. These simple sugars have their place in numerous great beer recipes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BryanA Posted March 6, 2010 Author Share Posted March 6, 2010 OK, brewed my second batch, the Dark Ale this time...Getting close to bottling, and guess what...used the brewing sugar also with this batch and I have a cider smell with this one, identical to the first batch. Im convinced this brewing sugar is not the way to go...Im considering just dumping this batch knowing how its going to turn out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB2 Posted March 6, 2010 Share Posted March 6, 2010 If acetaldehyde is the problem, it will dissipate over time. You will be dumping beer that will eventually come good in the bottle. Time heals for a brew that is too bitter, too sulphury or too cidery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayotruck Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 Honestly you guys are so wrong. I see everyone blaming the sugar but that happens when the yeasts fermentation temperatures climb to high. You taste the apples flavor has nothing to do with sugar...sugar is sugar is sugar makes zero difference in type of sugar...this was a myth started by home brewers guide book in the 90's and people still will fight about it....its funny home brewers all have their own opinion but its from stuff they read in books over 20 years ago(or from forums of brewers that read that book)...remember smoking it used to be healthy 60 years ago...or that's whats the doctors said.. I remember people wouldn't even prime with sucrose/dextrose because it would "cider" your beer. When people actually try it, wow it works no cider taste. Its not the sucrose/dextrose...its the yeast plain and simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muddy Waters Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 Welcome Mayotruck [biggrin] ...it looks like you may have an a few opinions judging by your first 2 posts. While a lot of us are sharing various opinions and practices that I'm sure you can debase with your knowledge, I would tend to beleive comments and advice posted by PB2. He has posted info based on the testing they have performed in the brewery not just 2nd hand info he has dragged off the net or heard in the pub. Your opinions are welcome and encouraged (mine not so much [biggrin] ) but you may want to come in with a little less attitude and I'm sure we can all benefit from your advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayotruck Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 Thanks and sorry, I just get frustrated when everyone blames my white sugar for everything. I brew with it and I don't have issues ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muddy Waters Posted May 1, 2011 Share Posted May 1, 2011 [biggrin] No worries! I'd get off of my high horse now but I'm only a short fella which makes it a bit hard [lol] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewtownClown Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 sugar is sugar is sugar makes zero difference in type of sugar... Not quite true when you examine the plethora of sources (from beets to indian palm trees) and refining methods. I DO agree that sugar is not the root of all brewing evils. I believe its bad name comes from Kit and Kilo brews of old when a kilo of white table sugar is added to a can of extract. It is widely accepted in homebrewing circles that up to 20% usage is fine. In fact different sugars add varying characters - I like a mix of brown sugar and palm sugar in a heavy dark ale. White sugar is used extensively in Trappist brewery's - a Duvel (Belgian Trippel) recipe I have calls for 1.5 kg white sugar to 5kg Pilsner malt. Sugar can thin a heavy, cloying beer into something much more palatable. Acetaldehyde has only been a problem for me once (in my current era of homebrewing) when I had not been attentive and allowed the fermentation temp. to rise to the late 20'sC. I will not blame high temps alone for, as The Bard puts it, "One Swallow Does Not a Summer Make". (Looking forward to Muddy's quip) Quantity of sugar, high temps, yeast are all factors. The early days of homebrewing DID advocate brewing at high temps with loads of white sugar - usually increased to up the ABV. All contibuting to a character known then as "Homebrew Taste". It DOES dissipate over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trusty1 Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 I have three brews in storage at the moment that suffer from a fruity, cidery taste. Not really sure on how exactly to define it. My mrs said "shite - doesn't taste like beer should" on saturday when testing a MEx Cerv. the 3 beers are TC Pilsener, Canadian Blonde and the aforementioned Mex cerv. they were done 2-3 weeks apart from last november. My querie is what to do? Do i free up valuable bottle space, or keep them in storage in the chance they'll loose this "not like beer" taste? I don't have my recipe book with me, but i definitely did not use more than 20-30% dextrose. I had the brew fridge in operation, so it wasn't too hot. I'm a bit perplexed at these three brews![pinched] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewtownClown Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 I have three brews in storage at the moment that suffer from a fruity, cidery taste. Not really sure on how exactly to define it. My mrs said "shite - doesn't taste like beer should" on saturday when testing a MEx Cerv. the 3 beers are TC Pilsener, Canadian Blonde and the aforementioned Mex cerv. they were done 2-3 weeks apart from last november. My querie is what to do? Do i free up valuable bottle space, or keep them in storage in the chance they'll loose this "not like beer" taste? I don't have my recipe book with me, but i definitely did not use more than 20-30% dextrose. I had the brew fridge in operation, so it wasn't too hot. I'm a bit perplexed at these three brews![pinched] Cidery and Fruity (estery) are difeerent and caused by different factors. Acetaldehyde TOO much cane or corn sugar (not in your case) can cause acetaldehyde which in turn can cause the yeast to throw acetic acid = cidery flavous Fruity (estery) Esters come from the yeast and are desirable in many styles (not a MexCev). I always brew a Heffeweizen with a Bavarian yeast and start at high temps - 27C, because I love the banana easter that yeast throws off. Various yeasts throw various esters at various temps. The higher the temp, more esters (not your case), higher gravity worts (1.050+) or, again TOO much cane/corn sugar. Also causing acetaldehyde is an infection from Acetobacter, a genus of acetic acid bacteria characterised by the ability to convert ethanol to acetic acid. From a friends experience, it is quite noticable late in the fermentation How are your brews since then? Has/did ANYTHING in your routine change, e.g. sanitation, yeast strain, more fermentables? The common denominators in the characteristics your are reporting are excess (20%+) cane/corn sugar and/or high ferment temp. If that doesn't apply, put it down to clumsy sanitation (it happens!) especially if it DOESN"T dissipate over time. I empathise on the value of bottle space (to the point I regularly consume my brews for more bottles [innocent] ). Try mixing a bottle in a jug with cider, ginger beer/ale, lemonade or any mixer maybe add lemon/lime slices/juice or ginger root etc. Then, only then, if still unpalatable, with a heavy heart, I say (gulp!) DUMP.[crying] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trusty1 Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 I tried a Pilsener tonight. It was a whole heap better than the last one I tried about 3 weeks ago. I might just pull the door on the storage cupboard and check back in 6 mnths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewtownClown Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 I tried a Pilsener tonight. It was a whole heap better than the last one I tried about 3 weeks ago. I might just pull the door on the storage cupboard and check back in 6 mnths. Sweet! out of interest, what is a "TC" pilsner? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muddy Waters Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 TC = Thomas Coopers [cool] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewtownClown Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! was thinking along the line, "True Czech" Pilsener [lol] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigsALE Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 One of my fav brews at the moment was made up exactly as the recipe requests. Coopers Real Ale. 1 KG White Sugar Kit yeast. Brewed and let sit for total of 2 weeks before bottling. Bottled with 1 teaspoon of sugar per 750 ML bottle. Easy drinking ALE that my father in law can't stop raving about. I don't usually use all white sugar. Just want to go back to old times and see if the recipe actually produced a great beer using only white sugar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.