Starsan not effective against wild yeast and molds!

[ChristinaS1]

Hi folks. I've been working my way through the thread over on the AHA website on the Shaken not Stirred yeast starter method and came across this, written by the same guy who developed the SNS starter method (post #134), about Starsan:

 

" The Internet is littered with data that demonstrates that acid-anionic sanitizers are bactericides, not broad-spectrum antimicrobials. My own experience with beers that plated positive for wild yeast infection after switching to Star San correlates with the published data. A local guy who I know had a persistent Brett infection that he could not get eliminate. He switched from Star San to paracetic acid (PAA), and the problem went away. This guy never had a problem with bacteria infection, even though his Brett beers were usually pitched with what are often referred to as beer spoilage bacteria.

 

The fact is Star San is an acid anionic sanitizer. Five Star even claims that it is a "high foaming, acid anionic, no-rinse sanitizer" on their website (www.fivestarchemicals.com/breweries/homebrewing/products/). Numerous publications state that acid-anionic sanitizers work via attraction to positively charged cells. Bacteria cells have a positive charge, yeast and mold cells have a negative charge (i.e., yeast and mold cells repel acid-anionic sanitizers). Since the active ingredient in Star San, dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid (see www.jstrack.org/brewing/msds/starsan.pdf), is ineffective against yeast and mold, the only thing that Star San can do to yeast and mold is beat it up via low pH, which is the same thing that happens when we acid wash yeast.

 

From this publication: www.beer-brewing.com/beer_brewing/brewery_cleaning_sanitation/sanitizing_agents.htm

 

"Anionic Acids

 

Anionic acids are one of the fastest growing sanitizing groups in the craft brewing industry. They are chemicals composed of two functional groups-a lipophilic portion and a hydrophillic portion-which results in a negative charge. The negatively charged anionic acid sanitizers react with positively charged bacteria by attraction of opposite charges"

 

 

From page 9-6 of this publication: http://jifsan.umd.edu/pdf/gaqps_en/Section9.Effective_Cleaning_and_Sanitizing_Procedures.pdf

 

"Acid-anionic sanitizers are broad spectrum against bacteria and viruses, but not very effective against yeasts and molds."

 

 

From http://dairy-technology.blogspot.com/2014/01/chemical-sanitizers.html

 

" iv. Acid Anionic Sanitizers

 

These formulations include an inorganic acid plus a surfactant, and are often used for the dual function of acid rinse and sanitization. Unlike QACs, they are negatively charged. Their activity is moderately affected by water hardness. Their low use pH, detergency, stability, low odor potential, and non-corrosiveness make them highly desirable in some applications. Disadvantages include relatively high cost, a closely defined pH range of activity (pH 2 to 3), low activity on molds and yeasts,excessive foaming in CIP systems and incompatibility with cationic surfactant detergents."

 

From https://books.google.com/books?id=lCRxcp3gfhUC&pg=PA180&dq=acid-anionic+sanitizers++limited+activity+yeast+mold&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAGoVChMI3_2lx_6ryAIVQR0eCh2tpAN2#v=onepage&q=acid-anionic sanitizers limited activity yeast mold&f=false

 

"Acid anionic sanitizers act rapidly and kill a broad spectrum of bacteria and have good bateriophage activity."

 

"These sanitizers can be corrosive to unprotected metals and a skin irritant, inactivated by cationic surfactants, may foam too much for CIP equipment, are less effective at a higher pH, have limited and varied antimicrobial activity (including poor yeast and mold activity), and are more expensive than the halogen sanitizers"

 

Note: The most commonly available halogen sanitizers are idophor and chlorine bleach.

« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 11:59:44 AM by S. cerevisiae »"

 

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=24447.120

 

Given the problems I have been having with phenolic off flavours, which can be a sign of wild yeast contamination, in some of my US-05 brews, I think I might be switching to Iodophor!

 

Someone also posted this in the thread (post #132):

 

"....reminds me of the Dave Line book from years past when he said that if you didn't get rid of your pets you'd always brew infected beer."

 

Yikes, I have two dogs and a cat!

 

They say the best defense is a good offense. That is why I will be making a lot more starters, especially with slow starting yeasts like US-05.

 

Cheers!

 

Christina.

[Rob44]

Great info Christina thanks!

Hopefully we can get a discussion here and some more substantiation on these matters.

I did consider starsan as a factor in the offness of my last brew, perhaps it was in a more indirect way then id thought. Im dropping bleach as a FV soak and eliminating that potential source of Chlorophenol.

 

I relied on rinsing & startsan as the only barrier to prevent cross contamination in one way or another (with my siphon for example) in my last couple brews. Is this bad practice?

 

I guess spurred on by this new generation of brewing Ive let my guard down somewhat and taken a more relaxed approach to cleaning & sanitation then I have in years gone by. Brewing should be enjoyable and relaxed but be careful not to drop your guard.

 

Could any body chime in on their use of idophor?

 

Cheers.

 

 

[headmaster]

I use idophor as a no rinse sanitiser (not for cleaning, I use pure sodium perc for that as well as Aldi Dysan)

 

Bought a bottle, maybe 200ml, jan 2015, still more than half full. Was only $10 I think. You use 1 ml per litre. Also doubles for doing iodine tests for starch to see if your mash conversion is complete :-).

 

I only chose this as that's what my LHBS had in stock. For some reason seems to be less starsan around in NSW for some reason..

 

 

Anyway, as far as I can tell, touch wood I haven't had a contaminated batch in 39 batches, and I have re-used yeast up to 8 generations by harvesting from trub. I use idophor to sanitise for all processes from, sanitising FV before pouring in wort using a spray gun, spraying FV tap outlet after taking gravity sample, sanitising racking tubes and bottler and bottling vessel, as well as my bottles using vinator on bottle tree.

 

Such a small concentration, even though I don't rinse, it imparts no flavour to the beer.

 

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

Starsan imparts no flavour to the beer if used correctly at the proper dilution rate either. Been using it for years without issues. Unless you do a Waylon and tip a batch of wort into 4 or 5 litres of Starsan that's still in the fermenter...

[ben 10]

In Australia we have mould, possibly different to mold.

 

Kinda good that Starsan is not effective against yeast, the no rinse aspect would be fairly pointless if it was going to kill the yeast pitch.

 

Clean, rinse with hot water and then use a phosphoric acid based sanitiser - works for me.

[Phoenix76]

So Headmaster, Mangrove Jacks No Rinse "Steriliser" which it says is Sodium Percarnonate, should be okay as a sanitiser?

 

Ask the question because I came across some in one shot packets at a local Mitre 10 who happens to sell a lot of spirit brewing gear. Was sticky nosing around while I waited for the check ot girl and saw these "no rinse" packets for $2 something each. Thought, well I've got three batches to bottle over the next couple of days so this stuff might be a lot easier, and effective, than SMB. What do you think?

 

By the way Christina, I got 3 dogs and 1 cat. One of the dogs is a 40kg++ monster and his hair is everywhere. And he is short haired. He is a Mareema/Great Dane Cross, only 12 months old, will be a big boy when he grows up. We're country folks, so typically everyone and everything has the run of the house - all family

[Beerlust]

A few of you guys & gals are making very hard work of this sanitising & cleaning of brewing equipment.

 

It's really not meant to be that cumbersome. Starsan is an acid based sanitiser. It's main usage is as a surface sanitiser, NOT a cleaner. It doesn't have any physical matter dissolving attributes.

 

I follow a similar regime to Benny.

 

Hot water & a bit of elbow grease to remove physical matter, then rinse. Then a long soak (can be a number of days sometimes) in a pure sodium percarbonate mix solution. Sodium percarbonate is an alkaline based sanitiser/cleaner. Alkaline based sanitisers have the ability to remove & dissolve physical matter through soaking. Obvious mould presents as physical matter. Soaking your FV in particular in this type of solution is great for clearing muck & nasties away from your tap inlet & seals.

 

Then on brew day all equipment is given a spraying of Starsan & allowed to air dry before use.

 

Horses for courses.

 

Cheers,

 

Lusty.

[headmaster]

So Headmaster' date=' Mangrove Jacks No Rinse "Steriliser" which it says is Sodium Percarnonate, should be okay as a sanitiser?

 

[/quote']

 

Sodium percarbonate is an oxidising agent, like bleach but safer. Generally though, it's used for cleaning rather than sanitising or sterilising , although it should be able to sterilise very well, it's just that you usually need to rinse it off, meaning the rinse water may contaminate it again.

 

It's the active ingredient in Napisan, Dysan soakers etc.

 

Is there any info online about it ?

[Otto Von Blotto]

It breaks down into water, oxygen and soda ash so given that, it probably doesn't really need to be rinsed off. I do it anyway and follow a similar procedure to the above, minus the elbow grease. I just soak things in sodium perc and warm/hot water and once it removes all the crap, the piece of equipment is rinsed with hot water, and if being used again straight away is then sprayed with Starsan. Haven't had any infected batches using this regime.

 

Also I'm pretty sure mould and mold are the same thing, it's just the spelling is different, a bit like colour/color etc. I may be wrong though.

[Mark D Pirate]

Sodium perc decays to Hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonate , Hydrogen Peroxide then breaks down to water and oxygen .

using cheap non perfumed soakers liker napisan sensitive or pure sodium perc to CLEAN Bottles , FVs and anything where theres a build up of crud makes perfect sense , if left too long it can leave a white coating (soda ash) that will just wipe off

On brewday anything that touches wort post boil gets a liberal coat of Starsan also as cheap insurance .

nothing wrong with Idophor either !

Cleaning and Sanitising are 2 different things

 

[Rob44]

 

Kinda good that Starsan is not effective against yeast' date=' the no rinse aspect would be fairly pointless if it was going to kill the yeast pitch.

 

[/quote']

 

[ChristinaS1]

In Australia we have mould' date=' possibly different to mold.

 

Kinda good that Starsan is not effective against yeast, the no rinse aspect would be fairly pointless if it was going to kill the yeast pitch.

 

Clean, rinse with hot water and then use a phosphoric acid based sanitiser - works for me.[/quote']

 

Hi Ben.

 

Mould is the British spelling, mold the American. As a former colony we are supposed to follow the Britlsh spelling, but have been known to go either way, cause we live so close to the USA. It seems my spell-check software was coded by an American.

 

I don't think Iodophor would kill the yeast pitched, wiould it? The residual on the FV (or whatever) would be diluted with the wort.

 

I will use up my Star-san in post-fermentation processes, like sanitizing bottles, but will probably switch to Iodophor for sanitizing pre-fermentation equipment. Don't know for sure yet, still reading about it.

 

Cheers!

 

Christina.

[ben 10]

I will use up my Star-san in post-fermentation processes' date=' like sanitizing bottles, but will probably switch to Iodophor for sanitizing pre-fermentation equipment. [/quote']

 

 

Is there a problem that needs fixing?

 

 

Or...

[porschemad911]

G'day Ben10,

 

In the US-05 off flavours thread, there's some suspicion of a low-level infection that US-05 isn't growing quickly enough to dominate.

 

The other suspicion is that it's from under-pitching. So Christina, before you change sanitizer, I'd try brewing a batch pitching more US-05 and see if you have the same problem. Bleach is pretty lethal to microbes and readily available, so you could always do a really thorough soak with unscented bleach and rinse as a precaution before attempting to double-pitch a batch.

 

Cheers,

 

John

[porschemad911]

Deleted - double post.

[ChristinaS1]

By the way Christina' date=' I got 3 dogs and 1 cat. One of the dogs is a 40kg++ monster and his hair is everywhere. And he is short haired. He is a Mareema/Great Dane Cross, only 12 months old, will be a big boy when he grows up. We're country folks, so typically everyone and everything has the run of the house - all family [img']lol[/img]

 

 

Hi Phoenix. Three dogs and a cat? You've go me beat....well we also have five chickens, but I didn't mention them before because they don't come in the house.

 

Sounds like you have a lovely family! Can't believe the size of your Great Dane Cross. His poops must be enormous! Maybe your property is big enough that you don't have to pick it up? I hope so....

 

Cheers!

 

Christina.

[ChristinaS1]

I will use up my Star-san in post-fermentation processes' date=' like sanitizing bottles, but will probably switch to Iodophor for sanitizing pre-fermentation equipment. [/quote']

 

 

Is there a problem that needs fixing?

 

 

Or...

 

Hi Ben. Yes, a problem. I have had a couple of brews with phenolic off-flavours, one made with US-05, the other with Workhorse (but that one was under-pitched). I have been posting about it in the US-05 off-flavour thread.

 

Cheers!

 

Christina.

[ChristinaS1]

I use idophor as a no rinse sanitiser (not for cleaning' date=' I use pure sodium perc for that as well as Aldi Dysan)

 

Bought a bottle, maybe 200ml, jan 2015, still more than half full. Was only $10 I think. You use 1 ml per litre. Also doubles for doing iodine tests for starch to see if your mash conversion is complete :-).

 

I only chose this as that's what my LHBS had in stock. For some reason seems to be less starsan around in NSW for some reason..

 

 

Anyway, as far as I can tell, touch wood I haven't had a contaminated batch in 39 batches, and I have re-used yeast up to 8 generations by harvesting from trub. I use idophor to sanitise for all processes from, sanitising FV before pouring in wort using a spray gun, spraying FV tap outlet after taking gravity sample, sanitising racking tubes and bottler and bottling vessel, as well as my bottles using vinator on bottle tree.

 

Such a small concentration, even though I don't rinse, it imparts no flavour to the beer.

 

[/quote']

 

Thanks for the info Headmaster. That is very helpful. Nice to know I can use it in a spray bottle, like I am used to doing with Star-san.

 

Do you have to mix up a fresh batch each time? Or can you reuse, it like Star-san?

 

Cheers!

 

Christina.

[ben 10]

I have been posting about it in the US-05 off-flavour thread.

.

 

Ahh, fair enough.

Having not read that thread would explain my ignorance.

[headmaster]

 

Thanks for the info Headmaster. That is very helpful. Nice to know I can use it in a spray bottle' date=' like I am used to doing with Star-san.

 

Do you have to mix up a fresh batch each time? Or can you reuse, it like Star-san?

 

Cheers!

 

Christina. [/quote']

 

I mix up a fresh batch of 1 litre when I'm running a bottling session for the vinator, and half a litre for a spray bottle for the bottling vessel, racking hose, bottle filler, spraying taps etc. I usually keep what's left in the spray bottle to spray on the tap after I take a gravity sample of whatever might be fermenting next, but generally mix up fresh when I need to.

 

It does seem to remain useful for a few days, as you can see the slight brown tinge to the water, and you can smell iodine, but after a few days this diminishes. Iodine in pure form is absorbed into plastic, and this is why if you put the solution into plastic, it will eventually start to go a shade of brown. That’s why pure iodine needs to be stored in glass.

 

That said my idophor came in a plastic bottle, so maybe undiluted idophor is different to pure iodine. They say the staining is nothing to be concerned about, and it hasn’t stained my coopers FV’s. It might if you mixed up 30 litres and let it soak in there, but that’s what sodium perc is for, of course this is just the sanitation so a quick no rinse spray is unlikely to stain the plastic.

 

 

[ChristinaS1]

Thanks Headmaster!

 

Cheers! -Christina.

[ChristinaS1]

Hi folks,

 

Just thought I would update this thread, as there has been some discussion in another thread about whether or not it is a myth that Starsan is not effective against yeast. This guy, who Kelsey linked to in the other thread, sounds very knowledgeable. He says it is a myth:

 

 

I decided it would be best to contact the manufacturer, Five Star Chemical, and ask them directly. Here is the response I got:

 

"Hi Christina,

 

Thank you for contacting Five Star. I spoke to our chemist and Starsan has not been tested on yeast. So, we can not say if it does or doesn't kill yeast. Our chemist also said that yeast is a larger organism, so typically the cleaners will take care of the yeast and the sanitizer takes care of the smaller bacteria such as e coli. Please let me know if you have any further questions.

 

Thanks,

 

Rebecca Ozirsky

Five Star Chemicals & Supply, Inc."

 

Given what Charlie Talley, the inventor of Starsan, said in this Basic Brewing radio interview, calling it "a stone cold killer," I was quite surprised to hear that Starsan has actually not been tested against yeast:

 

https://secure-hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/3/9/0/390da96899933961/bbr03-29-07.mp3?c_id=1452161&expiration=1481564129&hwt=11c238969953bfbad40a8a466d456c25

 

I suppose that Charlie means it meets the legal definition of a surface sanitizer? Charlie also says that if you want to reuse Starsan that you ought to dilute it with distilled water, to keep the pH 2.0-3.0, because the minerals in hard water can move the pH up to 3.5, at which point it is not effective anymore and actually becomes food for bacteria. Distilled water is quite expensive where I live so I have been using reverse osmosis water....Seems like if you aren't going to use distilled water to dilute it, it is best to mix it up fresh each time you use it, same as Iodophor. That makes Starsan a lot less cost effective.

 

"When you sanitize, you are killing/reducing the number of bacteria present by 99.9 percent (3 log10) but doing nothing about viruses and fungus....The minimum level of effectiveness in a modern-day disinfectant is 100 percent kill of 6 log10 of an organism. A sanitizer is only required to reduce that 6 log10 down to 3 Log10. We can put that into real numbers. If we start with 1 million organisms on a surface then a disinfectant must kill 100 percent of them; zero left. A sanitizer only reduces the number of organisms down to 1,000 and does nothing about virus and fungus. - See more at: http://www.cleanlink.com/cp/article/The-Difference-Between-Cleaning-Sanitizing-and-Disinfecting--14213#sthash.SEA9NPDA.dpuf

 

As I said before, I am going to use Iodophor for pre-fermentation sanitizing, and use up my Starsan for post fermentation sanitizing. When Iodophor is diluted to the no-rinse concentration of 12.5ppm, it is a sanitizer, but when mixed to 25ppm, it is a disinfectant and must be rinsed. My guess is that even at 12.5ppm, Iodophor is more effective at killing yeast than Starsan, especially if the Starsan has been diluted with tap water and stored for a period of time.

 

Cheers,

 

Christina.

[Morrie]

 

I don't get infections.

 

I don't get off flavours.

 

I use US-05 and pitch at optimum rates.

 

I clean thoroughly with PBW.

 

I sanitize as per the Starsan directions.

 

I won't be moving off Starsan.

 

 

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

Same as Morrie here, although I must admit it is interesting that they haven't tested it on yeast. Maybe I could have done a rough test myself when I emptied the jar of US-05 into its last starter. Should have filled the jar with Starsan mixed as I normally do, left it for a day or two then made up a small wort and pitched the yeast settled in the bottom of the jar into it to see if it was dead or not

 

It's a bit of a conundrum. You'd think if it killed yeast then it wouldn't be good for brewers yeast either - but perhaps the difference there is that even though the stuff isn't rinsed off, by the time the wort is poured in, it's so diluted and the pH has risen that it's a non issue. Same with bottles.

 

When I got my water still for making distilled water for pilsners I decided to use the leftovers from each batch to mix up my Starsan. I haven't noticed any difference except that it seems to foam up more with the distilled water. I guess my house isn't a breeding ground for too many organisms that I don't want in my beer; aside from the cube fiasco I haven't had any issues.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey