Kettle Soured Pale

[MTB]

Yup - https://aussiecraftbrewing.com.au/thread/859/wiki-kettle-souring-urn

The Watermelon Sour I made using this method has blown away every drinker, whether it be the ladies, my friends, fellow brewers, even my grandmother.

[Beer Baron]

I have seen videos of people using a handful of uncrushed grain to lower their PH too. That might be an option too. 

[MTB]

50 minutes ago, Beer Baron said:

I have seen videos of people using a handful of uncrushed grain to lower their PH too. That might be an option too. 

For the low cost of lactobacillus plantarum nowadays (Essential Nutrients IBS Support Capsules from your local chemist) I don't see why you'd bother risking it with uncrushed grains. You at least know what you're getting with IBS pills - pure lacto plantarum.

[Rowbrew]

So do you boil the wort first for 15 mins or so to kill off ant nasties before letting it cool to pitch the Lacto? Also what temp do you pitch at? 30?

I cleaned my urn today and i thought that i would do a test run to see how long it would take to cool down. It took about 7 hours to get 25 litres from 100°C to 45°C. Thats a long time to wait before pitching, i would probably have to mash in at around 5am on a Saturday, add the lacto at around 11 or 12 then boil 24hrs later on Sunday. Does that seem right?

[joolbag]

Hey rowbrew I just did some reading on kettle sours and I’ve decided at this point in time it is too bloody hard! I have brewed just one sour beer to date, it was a Gose. I usedthe method where you mash with about 1 kg of Acidulated malt to get the sour flavor into the beer. It’s not a super sour beer either, certainly less than a Berliner Weisse.

 

i will brew another Gose and was thinking of kettle souring my second go at it. No way given the complexity, length of brewday, etc. I’ll go down the acidulated malt route again or perhaps source some liquid lactic acid and squirt it in to get that hint of sour.

 

what style did u want to brew?

[Rowbrew]

Hey Jools

I have only ever tried 2 different Gose beers, Freshie Salt and Pepper and The Punch Mango Gose. Both were nice but i think i like the Berliner Weisse style better.  They just seem a little more tart which is what i would want in a sour beer. I have a rough recipe i created with some leftover ingredients, it looks like this so far

 

1.5kg Vienna

450g Pilsner

300g Wheat

8g Hallertau 4% AA.     FWH

16 litres

1.031 (approx)

7.5 IBU (approx)

3.2% ABV (approx)

[The Captain!!]

I remember Mark D Pirate did a kettle souring not too long ago Rowbrew.

The reaction time might not take that long mate, basically you need to wait till the Ph gets to around 4.2?? Can’t remember the exact number, Then complete the rest of the process. It could potentially be a bit quicker than your expecting. I’ve heard of some guys doing the souring part in under 12 hours. As in put in the lacto, soured, boiled and in the cube in under 12 hours. 

You could do the kettle souring or maybe get a cool ship and some barrels. Inoculated your house by spraying all the walls and ceiling in wild fermented beer from la serene. Put a batch down and wait for 12-18 months to see if it works?? 

Sound like a plan?

Captain

 

[Rowbrew]

You know what Captain, that doesn't sound all that crazy. All i need is for the missus to say yes and we're golden!

[Rowbrew]

She said no

[The Captain!!]

I’m not upset mate.......... just disappointed.

Kirk

[The Captain!!]

I think you should tell her that she’s being unreasonable.

Its for the greater good.

Captain

[Rowbrew]

Haha that is too funny!

On a seroius note though, do you think 12 hours would be enough to sour it enough? I thought that it needed to get down to a pH of 3.9 or something. 

[The Captain!!]

 I just can’t remember the ph. Off the top of my head. I thought once it got into the 3’s it was too sour. Either way from what I’ve heard guys would inoculate in the late afternoon go to bed and shed be ready by the morning. 

I’ll have a search around for ya

[Rowbrew]

Cheers Kirk. I appreciate it

[The Captain!!]

https://byo.com/article/overnight-acidification/

Found this. Worth a read. 

[Rowbrew]

Cheers Kirk. Interesting stuff. I think i might wait until my pH test strips arrive from eBay so i can get a rough ballpark figure of what pH im at after 12 hours. At least that way i can see if it needs more time. I bought one of those cheap digital pH meters from China, and while it worked great the first time i used it, it is now not working correctly. The reading jumps all over the place and won't stabilise. I don't think i stored it correctly. I just washed off the test liquid under the tap and then stored it away. I heard you should store it in solution? I dunno

[Rowbrew]

So the general consensus is to pre-acidify the wort to a pH of around 4 to 4.5 using lactic or phosphoric acid. Apparently Lactobacillus like a slightly acidic enviroment to start out with, otherwise it can produce some pretty foul odours like feet, cheese and vomit ? So that got me thinking, I wonder if i can pre-acidify my wort with Acidulated malt. I would add the Acid malt after the main mash was completed and let it steep for about 10 mins or so. Do you think that would work? I dont want to add it to the main mash because it would lower the mash pH too much.

[Rowbrew]

On 5/16/2018 at 8:54 PM, MTB said:

The Watermelon Sour I made using this method has blown away every drinker

Would you mind sharing your recipe MTB?

[MTB]

5 hours ago, Rowbrew said:

Would you mind sharing your recipe MTB?

For me it's simply 50/50 Pilsner malt & wheat malt. Mash at 66C for 60min. Standard mash out, nothing special there.

Transfer to your boil kettle (or lift out the grain if you're doing BIAB, just follow your standard ale/lager method). Boil for 15min, chill to 40C, pitch 1 capsule of Essential Nutrients IBS Support per 20L of wort. Cover the kettle opening with glad wrap and sit the lid on top to form a proper seal. Maintain @ 40C or at least over 30C.

3 days (72hrs) later, re-boil to kill the lacto bugs and add a small handful of hops, to no more than 5IBU. This boil should be 45min in length, meaning the full boil length of the recipe was 60min (15min to kill lacto, 45min to do hop additions / encourage evaporation).

Chill to normal ale fermentation temp and ferment as you would a normal ale. Pitch whatever ale yeast you desire, ensure it's a big pitch since the lower pH may inhibit yeast activity.

My watermelon sour contained 2.5L of strained watermelon flesh puree and I swear to you it was feggin' magical.

[MTB]

..as for taking pH measurements, I have a pH meter and will likely take measurements next time I do this sour, but lacto souring process on 3 days @ 30-40C is my rule of thumb and it has not failed me yet.

[Rowbrew]

Thanks for replying MTB.

Wow 3 days on the Lacto. I was hoping it only took about 12 to 24 hours! I wonder if that has anything to do with it being underpitched. I was thinking of using 5 capsules and maybe even making a small starter, but it all seems a little unnecassary now. I was worried that something else could start fermenting it and also the vomit thing. Did you pre-acidify your wort with anything?

[MTB]

It's possible that 3 days on the lacto isn't actually necessary. Milk The Funk states that peak sugar consumption is achieved at 48hrs but also that "No more than 0.5-1°P worth of sugar is consumed by Lactobacillus"

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Lactobacillus#Sugar_Utilization

It would stand to reason that when designing a recipe for such a sour you should aim to overshoot OG by four points. These four points are to be consumed by the lacto. Following that, the remaining fermentables are for your ale yeast.