First Ever BIAB - Trials and Tribulations!

[Pilch]

Mike

 

I cold crashed and fined with gelatine for the first time with my last brew. I fermented for 3 weeks as normal (for me), dry hopped for the last week, dropped temp to 2c overnight on day 21, added gelatine the next night, left it for 48hrs and then bottled.

The cold crash and fining definitely settled a lot more out than my previous brews with out it however, as Kelsy has mentioned previuosly, the yeast in the bottles after conditioning remained very fluffy and easily disturbed?

 

I used .5 of a Whirflock tablet for the first time with 10 mins to go in the boil of my most recent brew which is still fermenting away at home. I am going to give the gelatine a miss this time and just try cold crashing for a few days before bottling, will be interesting to see the result.

[Otto Von Blotto]

That's why I switched to using Isinglass. It gives the same yeast dropping benefits of gelatine without making the sediment fluffy and easily disturbed.

[MikeC1525229119]

Hey Kelsey,

 

Have you got a Lager or Pilsner recipe I can use for these cooler months?

I am finding it hard to keep the temp at around 18C for the Ales.

 

Thanks,

 

Mike

[Otto Von Blotto]

Funny you ask mate, I am gonna be brewing one myself next Saturday, my Bohemian Pilsner recipe. I've got it pretty well down pat now. This is the latest version where I changed one of the hop amounts due to a change in AA% on the latest lot of Saaz I bought.

 

25 litre batch size, note that I also no-chill in cubes.

 

Based on 75% Brewhouse Efficiency

 

Grains

4.750 kg Bohemian Pilsner (Weyermann) (3.5 EBC) Grain 6 94.7 %

0.160 kg Melanoidin (Weyermann) (59.1 EBC) Grain 7 3.2 %

0.100 kg Acidulated (Weyermann) (4.5 EBC) Grain 8 2.0 %

0.007 kg Black Malt (Thomas Fawcett) (1300.2 EBC) Grain 9 0.1 %

 

Hops

50.00 g Saaz {3.40 %} - First Wort 90.0 min Hop 10 21.0 IBUs

30.00 g Saaz {3.40 %} - Boil 80.0 min Hop 11 11.3 IBUs

50.00 g Saaz {3.40 %} - Boil 15.0 min Hop 12 8.8 IBUs

 

Yeast

1.0 pkg Urquell Lager (Wyeast Labs #2001) - This is actually harvested yeast I'll grow up in a starter. Bought the original smack pack last April

 

Mash schedule: 63C for 40 minutes, 71C for 30 minutes, 78C mash-out. You could probably get away with a 60-90 minute mash at 66C though. 90 minute boil.

 

Est Original Gravity: 1.0473 SG

Est Final Gravity: 1.0090 SG

Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.0 %

Bitterness: 41.1 IBUs

Est Color: 9.6 EBC

 

NB: I do use water treatment for this recipe by way of distilling all the water required for the batch and adding very small amounts of mineral salts back in when I fill the urn with it, hence the acid malt addition. However, I wouldn't worry about going to that extent for now, especially if you're starting with soft water to begin with. An alternate grain bill I've used is 4.75kg Pilsner malt, 250g Munich II, plus the handful of black malt for colour adjustment.

 

If you have any other questions, feel free to ask, although I'll be away from the computer all weekend so I won't be able to reply until Sunday night.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[MikeC1525229119]

Funny you ask mate' date=' I am gonna be brewing one myself next Saturday, my Bohemian Pilsner recipe. I've got it pretty well down pat now. This is the latest version where I changed one of the hop amounts due to a change in AA% on the latest lot of Saaz I bought.

 

25 litre batch size, note that I also no-chill in cubes.

 

Based on 75% Brewhouse Efficiency

 

[b']Grains[/b]

4.750 kg Bohemian Pilsner (Weyermann) (3.5 EBC) Grain 6 94.7 %

0.160 kg Melanoidin (Weyermann) (59.1 EBC) Grain 7 3.2 %

0.100 kg Acidulated (Weyermann) (4.5 EBC) Grain 8 2.0 %

0.007 kg Black Malt (Thomas Fawcett) (1300.2 EBC) Grain 9 0.1 %

 

Hops

50.00 g Saaz {3.40 %} - First Wort 90.0 min Hop 10 21.0 IBUs

30.00 g Saaz {3.40 %} - Boil 80.0 min Hop 11 11.3 IBUs

50.00 g Saaz {3.40 %} - Boil 15.0 min Hop 12 8.8 IBUs

 

Yeast

1.0 pkg Urquell Lager (Wyeast Labs #2001) - This is actually harvested yeast I'll grow up in a starter. Bought the original smack pack last April

 

Mash schedule: 63C for 40 minutes, 71C for 30 minutes, 78C mash-out. You could probably get away with a 60-90 minute mash at 66C though. 90 minute boil.

 

Est Original Gravity: 1.0473 SG

Est Final Gravity: 1.0090 SG

Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.0 %

Bitterness: 41.1 IBUs

Est Color: 9.6 EBC

 

NB: I do use water treatment for this recipe by way of distilling all the water required for the batch and adding very small amounts of mineral salts back in when I fill the urn with it, hence the acid malt addition. However, I wouldn't worry about going to that extent for now, especially if you're starting with soft water to begin with. An alternate grain bill I've used is 4.75kg Pilsner malt, 250g Munich II, plus the handful of black malt for colour adjustment.

 

If you have any other questions, feel free to ask, although I'll be away from the computer all weekend so I won't be able to reply until Sunday night.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

 

Thanks Kelsey.

 

Quick one. What temp do you ferment this at and is there another yeast I can use as I am not up to using yeast starters yet.

So I should multiply everything including the hops by 0.4 to get my 10L batch?

 

Cheers,

 

Mike

[Otto Von Blotto]

Oops, forgot about the fermentation temp. I use a schedule that differs a bit from ales.

 

Start fermentation at 10C;

When SG gets down to around 1.020 (usually day 5 or 6), let free-rise to 18C and leave there until day 14.

Check SG on days 10 and 12, it's normally at FG by day 10 I've found

On day 14/15 drop temp to 0C for two weeks then bottle/keg.

 

You may not have the means to make these temp changes or to cold crash it before bottling, so in that scenario probably just do the first two steps, or as close as you can to it anyway.

 

As for the yeast, I think Mangrove Jacks have a dry yeast called Bohemian Lager or something, maybe M84 unless they've changed it with all their renaming recently. W34/70 would work too but may not give the same flavour profile. Either way I'd be re-hydrating it before pitching.

 

All ingredients are multiplied by 0.4 to scale it down from 25 litres to 10 litres, yes. Are you using any software? You might have to change the hop amounts depending on the AA% of the Saaz you get, as I did with this version due to it being higher than my last lot was. In this case I'd just adjust the 80 minute addition and leave the others the same, as I'd done myself here (that addition was 50g as well with the last lot of Saaz I bought).

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

Hey Kelsey about to attempt my first all grain batch and got some questions about a bohemian pilsner..

 

Not as much an Urquell fan as a I am a Budvar fan though still a fan of both :-) so I am looking to do it in Budvar style rather than Urquell style.

 

My Recipe will basically be 4kg Floor malted Pilsner grain, 250gm Carapils for a 21L batch.

 

40gm saaz @ 90 min, 10gm @ 15 & Irish Moss and 10gm @ 5 mins.

 

Budvar 2000 Yeast

 

My question is more around the mashing.

 

Your Mash schedule: 63C for 40 minutes, 71C for 30 minutes, 78C mash-out. You could probably get away with a 60-90 minute mash at 66C though. 90 minute boil.

 

I also see online a lot of different mash schedules. This is one below.

 

Mash Schedule:

50C – 20 mins (122F)

60C – 40 mins (140F)

70C – 40 mins (158F)

 

Have you tried a more Budvar style in any of your attempts and if so what mash schedule do you think worked best?

 

 

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

I haven't tried to deliberately brew a Budvar style one no, although mine seems to come out somewhere between Urquell and Budvar anyway, more towards Urquell though.

 

I think with today's malts those 50C steps aren't really necessary, which is why I don't employ one. Also my urn has issues if too much crap comes out of the grains, which happens when doughing in at lower temps. It gets caked onto the element and stuffs up its operation. That's why I settled on the mash schedule that I use currently.

 

I did do a couple of batches with a full step mash schedule, but due to the problems heating it and whatever, the ones done with the 63-71-78 schedule turned out way better.

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

Thanks mate. I'm using an urn too so will heed your advice and keep it simpler.

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

Thanks mate. I'm using an urn too so will heed your advice and keep it simpler.

[talltwits]

Wow, so, er...just a quick update.

 

I have been rather absent from posting some replies and engaging in conversation on the forum of late. However I have been keeping an eye in and reading lots of posts and taking in lots of information.

 

So, tonight, after a long and dull backshift...I decided to come home and open my first bottle of my BIAB brew. I was a bit nervous as my previous post explains the strange after taste left after tasting from the FV into bottles.

 

So I put it in the fridge for about half an hour and then went for it. As I opened the bottle I heard the satisfactory pftsshh, alerting me that the bottle appears to have carbonated. Although I had left them in the garage in slightly cooler temps of late but I was happy enough with the level of carbonation.

 

So I went for it, and be under no illusions this is not the best beer that has ever been tasted or made by man. But it's my first ever proper BIAB and man, I'm super chuffed, super proud and absolutely loved the taste! I'm absolutely over the moon with it, after doubting myself so much over the process I'm delighted with how it tastes!

 

So just a quick update, but long and short is that it has been a success! And thanks to everyone who helped and contributed to my questions and others that have been posted on this thread.

 

WOOOHOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

Did my first ever on Sunday in my urn/robobrew.

 

Didn't change recipe so went with the 4kg Floor malted Pilsner grain, 250gm Carapils for a hopeful 21L batch.

 

40gm saaz @ 90 min, 10gm @ 15 & Irish Moss and 10gm @ 5 mins.

 

63C for 40 minutes, 71C for 30 minutes, 78C mash-out. 90 minute boil.

 

Budvar 2000 Yeast

 

My urn/roborew is about 2c out in temp between its temp controller and actual. Also a point of note on these machines. Many people say it and I agree that I think a pump to recirculate the wort is a deadset must. I bought one with the machine from recomendations but didn't use it first up. Taking temp measurements during the mash and there was 5c difference between the bottom and the top. So I manually took wort out through the ball valve and put it back up the top probably about 20 times during the mash so it was fairly equal throughout.

 

End of mash rinsed out grain with 2L of 78c water. Started with 29L mash water. 23.5L after the rinse out. Boiled with hops and 19L left at the end so I'm thinking the IBU is going to be a little higher than what I wanted. SG of 1.052 the morning after no chilling in a 20L cube.

 

All in all a good experience. Currently in the Fridge @ 11c and bubbling as of this morning.

 

Like tallwits can't wait for the first taste.

[Otto Von Blotto]

What was the intended OG? The IBUs will change depending on these numbers too. That's a shitload of water lost during the mash too

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

What was the intended OG? The IBUs will change depending on these numbers too. That's a shitload of water lost during the mash too

 

Intended was 1.046 for 21L. Yeah I wasn't thinking I would lose that much either. Should I just have rinsed with another 2L of 78c water?

[Otto Von Blotto]

It wouldn't have hurt yeah, you need to have 2 or 3 litres more than the intended batch size left in the kettle after the boil to account for trub loss. Maybe even more than that to account for trub loss and also that the 20L cubes hold more like 23L when filled to the brim. I normally have about 26 litres left in my urn post boil when I brew 21L batches. I start with 32 litres of water at mash in, but I don't lose a lot to grain absorption; by the time the bag drains to the point of a slow drip, it's usually sitting somewhere between 29 and 30 litres in the urn.

 

The other option of course would have been to boil and cool 2L of water and add it to the FV to get it to 21L, then mix it up and take the OG reading.

 

Not sure what effect the extra 6 points will have on the IBUs. They may be slightly lessened, or their effect may be slightly lessened. Shouldn't make a whole lot of difference though. I'll have a play in Beersmith later and see what it reckons.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

but I don't lose a lot to grain absorption; by the time the bag drains to the point of a slow drip' date=' it's usually sitting somewhere between 29 and 30 litres in the urn.

 

[/quote']

 

Cheers Kelsey.. Now I think more about it I think a lot of the issue is here to be honest. The malt pipe only has holes on the bottom so I don't think it would drain as well as a bag. I let it drain for 20 mins while I got the boil going but even when I tipped it on the garden it did seem still mushy.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Ahh, that might well be the issue then. It doesn't appear to have affected the efficiency in regards to extraction with your 1.052 in 19 litres as opposed to 1.046 in 21 litres, but obviously volume is a problem. I suppose with that kind of set up it could be remedied by using more sparge water, since you can't really squeeze a malt pipe like a bag.

 

With my set up with the bag, I let it drain for about 20 minutes also, by which time it's at a slow drip (unless the grain bill is big for an IPA or stout etc.). It then gets transferred to a 20L pail and hung on a hook above that to drip or do whatever until about 25-30 mins left in the boil when I give it a big squeeze to get the last bit out and this "excess" wort then gets tipped into the boil as well. When I tip the grains out they are obviously damp but certainly not mushy.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

Ahh' date=' that might well be the issue then. It doesn't appear to have affected the efficiency in regards to extraction with your 1.052 in 19 litres as opposed to 1.046 in 21 litres, but obviously volume is a problem. I suppose with that kind of set up it could be remedied by using more sparge water, since you can't really squeeze a malt pipe like a bag.

 

With my set up with the bag, I let it drain for about 20 minutes also, by which time it's at a slow drip (unless the grain bill is big for an IPA or stout etc.). It then gets transferred to a 20L pail and hung on a hook above that to drip or do whatever until about 25-30 mins left in the boil when I give it a big squeeze to get the last bit out and this "excess" wort then gets tipped into the boil as well. When I tip the grains out they are obviously damp but certainly not mushy.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey[/quote']

 

Yeah I think so. I know its only my first go on the system but I actually see limitations on the malt pipe v the bag. While a 4.25kg Grain bill might be OK with extra sparge water I don't know about a 7 or 8Kg Grain Bill. While there are many many holes allowing only one way of escape for the water i think is a big limitation.

 

[porschemad911]

G'day Greeny,

 

I'm guessing the idea of only having holes on the bottom is to allow the water to flow from top to bottom through the grain bed in the sparge. That way you won't get any coming out the sides during the sparge and a) making a big mess, and b) not rinsing the grain as thoroughly as possible.

 

The Robobrew looks like it is set up for fly, or continuous sparging. The convenient thing about this method is that you can just keep sparging until you get the pre-boil volume you want. Some people worry about when to stop sparging and top up your pre-boil with water instead, especially to avoid tannin extraction with low gravity beers, but don't worry about that for now.

 

Can you see the liquid level with the malt pipe on the rack on top of the boiler? If you can, I would just heat up a bit more sparge water than you think you need, and then just keep sparging until the pre-boil volume reaches the level you want. After that whip the malt pipe off into somewhere safe (eg a large tub, the laundry trough etc), and start heating to a boil.

 

Once you get the hang of your boil-off amount you could measure and then etch your target pre-boil wort level on the inside of your Robobrew to help you get a consistent volume each brew.

 

Cheers,

 

John

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

G'day Greeny' date='

 

I'm guessing the idea of only having holes on the bottom is to allow the water to flow from top to bottom through the grain bed in the sparge. That way you won't get any coming out the sides during the sparge and a) making a big mess, and b) not rinsing the grain as thoroughly as possible.

 

The Robobrew looks like it is set up for fly, or continuous sparging. The convenient thing about this method is that you can just keep sparging until you get the pre-boil volume you want. Some people worry about when to stop sparging and top up your pre-boil with water instead, especially to avoid tannin extraction with low gravity beers, but don't worry about that for now.

 

Can you see the liquid level with the malt pipe on the rack on top of the boiler? If you can, I would just heat up a bit more sparge water than you think you need, and then just keep sparging until the pre-boil volume reaches the level you want. After that whip the malt pipe off into somewhere safe (eg a large tub, the laundry trough etc), and start heating to a boil.

 

Once you get the hang of your boil-off amount you could measure and then etch your target pre-boil wort level on the inside of your Robobrew to help you get a consistent volume each brew.

 

Cheers,

 

John[/quote']

 

Yeah I can see the water level under the malt pipe so can sparge more up to a pre boil level. The main problem I encountered was even after 20 mins draining there seemed to be significant moisture held up in the grains still. Mushy rather than just wet grain. Like it just wasn't draining properly. However this was with pre cracked grain from the store. Have read a bit around here about cracking size etc so it might just be too fine. I have bought a mill so am going to crack my own next time and see what happens.

 

Greeny

[porschemad911]

Yeah I can see the water level under the malt pipe so can sparge more up to a pre boil level. The main problem I encountered was even after 20 mins draining there seemed to be significant moisture held up in the grains still. Mushy rather than just wet grain. Like it just wasn't draining properly. However this was with pre cracked grain from the store. Have read a bit around here about cracking size etc so it might just be too fine. I have bought a mill so am going to crack my own next time and see what happens.

Yeah, it shouldn't be like that. Last brew when I drained my mash tun using a bazooka screen through a ball valve, it flowed smoothly out leaving a nice even bed of well-drained grain. It looked kind of like well-draining potting mix does after a good watering in. The grain was cracked at my LHBS with what looks to be a fairly course grind.

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

Yeah' date=' it shouldn't be like that. Last brew when I drained my mash tun using a bazooka screen through a ball valve, it flowed smoothly out leaving a nice even bed of well-drained grain. It looked kind of like well-draining potting mix does after a good watering in. The grain was cracked at my LHBS with what looks to be a fairly course grind.[/quote']

 

Yeah a courser grind the next shall be. Some of the remnants in the bag from the shop was like powder. Mine definately didn't look like well drained potting mix. The bottom of the malt pipe looked more like soggy weet bix. Next time should be much smoother. :-)

[Otto Von Blotto]

I suspect the coarser grind contributing to my increased efficiency might have something to do with the wort being more easily drained through the grains than it was when they were crushed finer, and/or the wort being more easily extracted from the grain husks or something.

 

I used to get quite a lot of flour (powder) in my crushed grains when I was having issues with the knurled rollers on my mill. Even widening the gap to try to get the grains to actually pull through the rollers didn't really help in regards to the flour. About a year or so ago, Mashmaster sent out a replacement roller for no charge, but this one was fluted rather than knurled as that's what they're using now. I fitted this roller to the mill and immediately noticed a huge improvement in the quality of the crush, not to mention the mill worked properly again (only took a few minutes to mill a batch worth of grain compared to nearly an hour before it was fixed). There was hardly any flour in the crushed grain, no doughballs at dough in, and my efficiency increased by about 5% purely from that.

 

I guess the point of all that rambling is that in my experience at least, a coarser crush worked better than a finer crush. I had read in the past that a finer crush is better or that the crush doesn't even matter for BIAB, but my experience has been that that is a complete load of BS and that it matters quite a lot. And that a finer crush is worse.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

Did my 2nd batch another Pilsener batch exactly the same as my previous recipe. Changes were I used the recirculation pump and cracked my own grain for the first time.

 

29L of mash water. 25.5ish after the rinse out (a 2L improvement). 21.5 ish after the 90 boil. Grain this time was not mushy but a wet potting mix consistency. Everything went like a dream this time. Temp a lot more stable with the pump. Held consistently at my steps. All good bar one thing. While my previous batch ran at 1.052SG for 19L this one had 1.045 SG for 21.5L.

 

With Brewers Friend efficiency calc thats 73.65% for the first time and 2nd time 72%. I know its not much difference but wasn't really expecting less efficiency especially with the pump.

[Otto Von Blotto]

I wouldn't worry too much about the efficiency at the moment; record the numbers and what not but don't lose too much sleep over it. That's still a good number, and it probably will jump around a bit until you get your process really nailed down. I've found a handful of acid malt in pale beer grists seems to help with the efficiency too.