1st lager advice

[dpack]

Next week I am going to do my first two lagers. I plan to put them down at the same time as follows. I am keen for any advice on the process as I have only done ales and never cold crashed.

 

The plan so far is.

 

A

Cerveza tin

1kg light dry malt

W-34/70 yeast

 

B

Australian bitter tin

1.5kg Light liquid malt

W-34/70 yeast

 

I will pitch the dry yeast at 20-21 degrees.

 

Ferment in the brew fridge at 12 degrees for three weeks.

 

Cold crash at 1 degree or as cold as the fridge will go for one week.

 

Bottle in stubbys and wont drink them until spring as I am doing them for friends that like mega swill type beers that I wont see until then.

 

Is this a solid plan?

 

 

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

To be on the safe side, I would re-hydrate the yeast before pitching it. You really don't want an under pitch in a lager brew.

 

I'd change the fermentation schedule a bit. Temps are fine, but take a gravity reading on them around day 6. If they've dropped to around 1.020, you can let them free-rise up to about 18C and leave them there until the end of the second week (Day 14). By this stage, they should have fermented out and allowed for yeast cleanup phase as well. It's a bit of a shortcut, but it is one that works. I often find my lagers are fully fermented at somewhere between 8-10 days after pitching, however I do make large starters with my yeast.

 

What I normally do is take my day 5 or 6 hydro sample and leave it sit on the kitchen bench to get an idea of when and what the FG is. Bear in mind, if the sample is at 12C or whatever, it will either need to be allowed to rise to 20C or you'll need to use a temp correction calculator for the true SG reading at the time you take it.

 

At this point around day 14-16 they can be cold crashed to 1C for two or three weeks, and then bottled. Your experience may well differ from mine, but I have to admit I found no benefit from letting them sit in bottles for months compared to drinking them after a few weeks.

 

One difference between ales and lagers is that lagers are cold crashed or "lagered" for longer periods than ales are, hence my suggested changes. I use that schedule on all my lagers, and they have all turned out well.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[dpack]

I'm doing these brews today.

 

When you rehydrate does it matter if the yeast sits for longer than half an hour?

[Waylon]

Im probly going to get rubbished here but this is my opinion put to me by follow experienced brewers

 

if using W-34/70 @ 12 degrees yu will need 2 x 11g @ 20 litres

 

Lower temps you go even with lager yeast the more you need to pitch... higher temp lagers arnt always preferred but if done 15-17 as example it will still be nice drop .... not as clean but still quite nice beers can be made once they clean out...

 

My mate did steam beer @ 17-18 with morgans lager yeast it was sensational!

 

A steam beer ferments as hgigh as 17-19 with less yeast than a traditional lagers @10-14

 

If I use 1x11g W-34/70 to a 20 litre batch I wouldn't and when I have ive ryhydrated for 15min-30min then make a starter a 1 litre mini wort until signs of activity... But I cant be bothered I just double pitch...

 

Not everyone believes in starters with dryed yeast but ive had success with this method...its no hidden secret... but easyer to just double pitch

[dpack]

I've only got the one pack of 34 70 and a pack of morgans lager yeast. Maybe i should use them both in the cerveza and do the bitter in a couple days when i have more yeast?

[Waylon]

Ide save the saf34/70 if its 11g for a double pitch (2x sef34/70) to a 23 batch @12 degrees

 

@12 degrees you want 1 gram per litre..

 

you would be better off using the 1x morgans 15g lager yeast @14-15 degrees

 

Makes sence to me unless you can make a starter

 

Ide rehydrate pitch in Morgans lager yeast @20 degrees and let it drop to 14-15

 

Only brew 8-12 lager temps if you have enuff yeast or else it will conk out half way mate!

[dpack]

Hmm i ended up doing the single 34/70 in the cerveza and the morgans in the aussie bitter.

 

I was going to brew at 12 degrees and its set there but worts are currently at 17.

 

Only thing left to do could be to pitch another packet of lager yeast into the cerveza.

 

7g does a coopers kit at 23 litres. Why wont 11.5g of 34/70 do the same size wort at it's recommended brew temp of 12 degrees?

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

You don't really want to let it sit longer than half an hour - the yeast begin consuming the trehalose they've built up (or been boosted with in the case of dry yeast) and end up becoming vulnerable when pitched into wort.

 

 

As for the other question, because 7g is an underpitch anyway. For an average ale around the 1.045 mark at 23 litres you want about 200 billion cells, doubled for lagers. There's no way in the world a 7g pack of dry yeast contains 200 billion cells, but it still works in most cases even if not ideal. Lagers would be one exception. While 7g will still likely ferment the brew out, the results won't be all that great.

 

I suspect the main reason for needing more cells for lagers is the lower ferment temperature, but also, the desire for a clean flavour. The yeast multiply slower at low temps, so if you pitch less you get a longer lag time, but also they need to multiply more times to reach the required amount to ferment a brew, which will produce more esters, so the effects are two fold if you underpitch a lager. If you pitch the required amount of cells, they'll do their thing with minimal off flavours that are easily cleaned up post fermentation.

 

You can get away with one pack if you pitch it warmer and let it sit for 12-18 hours and then begin bringing down the temperature, however IMO you get a better result by pitching the proper amount at the desired fermentation temp.

 

Personally I don't agree with this "can't make yeast starters with dry yeast" idea. I reckon the main reason behind this is because dry yeast is cheaper and a lot of people find it easier to simply buy another pack, rather than build up one in a starter. However, I've done it numerous times with good results. As long as the yeast is rehydrated first, I see no issue with it. The main reason I do it is to harvest some for later use, but I'm also highly skeptical of the 20 billion cells per gram claim. Fermentis claims their dry yeast contains at least 6.9 billion cells per gram. 20 billion is quite a leap up from that. I expect it's more around the 10b per gram.

 

If your temp controller is set to 12C, don't worry, the brews will get down there. It does take a bit of time to change the temperature of 23 litres of liquid.

[dpack]

Sounds like ive under pitched. Should i put another packed of lager yeast or is it to late now the temps gotten down?

[Otto Von Blotto]

Well technically you probably have underpitched. How long have they been in the fermenters now? If the lag time has elapsed there would be little to no benefit in pitching more yeast now - the idea is to pitch the proper amount to begin with.

[dpack]

Dam.

 

It's been in the fv 8 hours and down to 14 degres.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Ok, in that case I wouldn't pitch more yeast but turn off the temp controller or at least raise its temp up to say, 16C and leave them there til the morning, then drop it back to 11/12C.

 

[Waylon]

Lower temps you go even with lager yeast the more you need to pitch… higher temp lagers arnt always preferred but if done 15-17 as example it will still be nice drop …. not as clean but still quite nice beers can be made once they clean out…

 

if YOU ARE WORRIED ABOUT UNDER PITCH

 

It's been in the fv 8 hours and down to 14 degres.

 

Well Ide ferment out the brew @ 17 degrees from now

 

It will be fine one yeast has finished and you crash chill it

 

 

 

[dpack]

Lesson learned. Thanks guys.

[dpack]

Ive got the auusie bitter in there that isn't under pitched.

 

I might follow ottos schedule droping it to 13 degrees until 1020 then bring it to 18 for a week then cold crash. Maybe i add should add another week prior to cold crash to assist with the clean up.?

[dpack]

Fermentation still very active so fingers crossed it turns out ok.

 

Found this on another thread and its a good reference http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/

 

The morgans lager yeast / aussie bitter brew appears less active than the 34/70 cerveza brew that i feared was under pitched.

 

Looking forward to taking the day six sg readings to see if I'm half way there.

[Otto Von Blotto]

That's the lager method I use. I used it to great effect on the last lot of lagers I did last year.

 

It's not a whole lot different to what I was doing before, really. The only differences are a higher D-rest temp, raised slightly earlier, and a shorter 'lagering' phase. The brews were quite nice as soon as they were carbed in the keg, although they did improve over the 2-3 weeks they lasted on the tap.

[Gigantor]

I'd change the fermentation schedule a bit. Temps are fine' date=' but take a gravity reading on them around day 6. If they've dropped to around 1.020, you can let them free-rise up to about 18C and leave them there until the end of the second week (Day 14). By this stage, they should have fermented out and allowed for yeast cleanup phase as well. It's a bit of a shortcut, but it is one that works. I often find my lagers are fully fermented at somewhere between 8-10 days after pitching, however I do make large starters with my yeast.

[/quote']

 

 

Was out at Craft Brewer/Bacchus Brewing late last week grabbing some supplies and doing some sampling. Got talking to one of their brewers who mentioned this point as well. He reckoned that a lager only needed to be held at 13C to 15C for about 5 to 7 days and then move the temp up to 18C for the remaining time. He reckoned a better taste will result. So plan to follow this with next lager brew.

 

Cheers,

Pete

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

Yeah I've been quite happy with how mine have turned out using this schedule, although I pitch and ferment them at 10C rather than 13-15. Probably depends on the yeast; by all accounts they use S-189 in their lagers which apparently does produce a pretty clean flavour even at higher temps.

 

I guess the whole logic behind the method is that places like Bacchus need to keep up with demand, so they probably don't have the time to allow for lagers to condition for months and thus have to speed up the process while maintaining the quality... and if they can do it, why can't we at home?

[dpack]

When you take the day six reading is your brew normally fairly active or has it slowed right down?

 

Mine is at day 5 and still bubbling away consistently.

[Waylon]

Just tried an extract lager I bottle 6/9/15

 

Such an easy brew

 

Bloody nice mate!

 

started 1038 finished 1008

 

1x 1.7 Thomas coopers lager can

1x 1.5 breiss pilsner

1x kit yeast

1x saf34/70 fermented @ late winter fermentation @ 14 degrees

[Otto Von Blotto]

When you take the day six reading is your brew normally fairly active or has it slowed right down?

 

Mine is at day 5 and still bubbling away consistently.

 

There's usually still a krausen on it when I take mine. I normally take the reading on day 5 and then just leave the hydrometer sample sitting on the bench until it ferments out. It ends up forming another krausen in the testing jar . Depending on what the reading is when I first take it I can get a rough idea of when it will be time to start letting the temperature come up, if it's not down to where it should be yet.

 

This also gives me a pretty good idea of what to expect the FG to be. Sort of a pseudo fast ferment test.

[dpack]

Day 17 and I've had two days of consistent gravity readings. Taste is good too.

 

Temp has been dropped to 1 degree and i plan to bottle in two to three weeks.

 

Thanks for the advice.