Partial Mash Question

[Beerlust]

On 1/27/2020 at 5:19 PM, alilley said:

I'm thinking of starting to do some partials in order to get some oatmeal in some winter brews. Do people find it simpler and easier doing it with grain in a bag, or just letting it go commando in a large pot?

How much grain you're using & what volumes you're mashing etc. can play a major part on whether a bag is necessary with partials (IMHO). I use 8 litre pots & only up to 2kgs of grain in my partial mashes. I strain my grain based mash wort through a fine weave metal strainer & sparge (rinse) a couple of litres of suitable temp water through that grain bed in my strainer to produce my smaller volume wort for the beginning of the boil.

I find the metal strainer easy to clean & sanitise etc. & in 8 years of homebrewing have never had to replace it.

If I was to up my grain volume any further my current processes would become more cumbersome, & it would be better served to buy a suitable All-Grain setup better suited to that higher volume & grain weight.

It's a personal choice really & up to the individual on what best suits their current setup & processes.

Just my 20 cents,

Lusty.

[Hairy]

I found these articles useful:

https://absolutehomebrew.com.au/part-grain-brewing-instructions

https://absolutehomebrew.com.au/index.php?route=information/information&information_id=13

https://absolutehomebrew.com.au/small-batch-all-grain-brewing-instructions-1

[Journeyman]

Looking around for partial mash solutions I came across unbleached calico (cotton) 90x90cm & thought that might work as a grain bag - not real fussed about the ones I see that are nylon or other plastic. 

Would this work for mashing or is it too fine? I thought maybe the fine mesh would make for extra clear wort but maybe there's stuff to go in the wort that's needed during the boil and that wouldn't pass through the calico?

[Beerlust]

9 hours ago, Journeyman said:

Looking around for partial mash solutions I came across unbleached calico (cotton) 90x90cm & thought that might work as a grain bag - not real fussed about the ones I see that are nylon or other plastic. 

Would this work for mashing or is it too fine? I thought maybe the fine mesh would make for extra clear wort but maybe there's stuff to go in the wort that's needed during the boil and that wouldn't pass through the calico?

As an upholsterer by trade & someone who has worked with calico a lot, I'd need to see a close picture of the weave pattern of the calico before I could make comment about it's suitability for use with BIAB'ing grain.

The openness of the weave would determine my view. If the weave is too tight it may create negative stuck mash/sparge scenarios.

Just my 20 cents,

Lusty.

[Journeyman]

11 hours ago, Beerlust said:

The openness of the weave would determine my view. If the weave is too tight it may create negative stuck mash/sparge scenarios.

They advertise it as being 'pudding cloth' but I have an unexpected trip to Adelaide, so beerbelly and call into Spotlight and buy a piece - it's only $2 so not a biggie if it doesn't work.. 

[Smashed Crabs]

21 hours ago, Journeyman said:

Looking around for partial mash solutions I came across unbleached calico (cotton) 90x90cm & thought that might work as a grain bag - not real fussed about the ones I see that are nylon or other plastic. 

Would this work for mashing or is it too fine? I thought maybe the fine mesh would make for extra clear wort but maybe there's stuff to go in the wort that's needed during the boil and that wouldn't pass through the calico?

If that doesn't work stop into any Bunnings check the paint isle they sell paint strainer bags that are very similar to the BIAB style bags they sell in home brew shops and you get 3-4 of them in a pack for like $6-$7 dollarydoos and they fit perfectly over the Big W 19L pots that a lot of people use for stove top BIAB.

[Journeyman]

17 minutes ago, Smashed Crabs said:

If that doesn't work stop into any Bunnings check the paint isle they sell paint strainer bags that are very similar to the BIAB style bags they sell in home brew shops and you get 3-4 of them in a pack for like $6-$7 dollarydoos and they fit perfectly over the Big W 19L pots that a lot of people use for stove top BIAB.

That sounds good. Do you know what material they are? I'm not sure about using poly or nylon products over natural fibres. (although cotton probably gets more processing than nylon.  )

[Shamus O'Sean]

The paint strainer bags are described as fabric. I use the 20L for small mashes and the 4L ones for big dry hopping +100gram.  They work well.

[Journeyman]

Bunnings next stop... Did Beerbelly and ended up with 5kg LDME, 2kg Coopers Ale malt and 100 gm Mosaic - the missing hops for my future attempts to duplicate the Fixation IPA I liked back in Bendigo. So with what's left from recent purchases and this, I reckon I just need Coopers cans for at least 6 nice brews. I've currently got maybe 100 bottles free so clearly I can't do them all in the next few days - I got some drinkin' to do...  (and planning)

[alilley]

has anyone tried mashing with an immersion stick heater, a. la. sous-vide cooker?

[Journeyman]

14 hours ago, alilley said:

has anyone tried mashing with an immersion stick heater, a. la. sous-vide cooker?

I plan to use mine, although it's not the Anova type. Mine is a 7L pot thing, like a slow cooker but with extra functions.

I think you'd want to use a bag to prevent the grain clogging up the fan and cleaning might be a bitch with all that sugary syrup streaming past the temp probe and fan. Would the sugar turn to toffee around the element?

Edited January 30, 2020 by Journeyman

[Smashed Crabs]

You could just stop at Big W and get that 19L pot I mentioned for $20 pretty sure they got smaller ones aswell if you don't need that size. Iv done partials and "Maxi BIAB" full size AG brews in it and using these paint strainer bags. So for -$30 you can crank out nice partials or even have a crack at half or full batch AG brews. Either way it's a cheap and effective way of increasing the quality of your beers immensely. 

[alilley]

I already have a 15L.

32 minutes ago, Smashed Crabs said:

paint strainer bags.

did you say you got them from bunnings? Was at mitre 10 today. Will pick some up.

[Smashed Crabs]

@alilley yeah mate should be stocked at all Bunnings or alike. 

[PaddyBrew2]

1 hour ago, Smashed Crabs said:

You could just stop at Big W and get that 19L pot I mentioned for $20 pretty sure they got smaller ones aswell if you don't need that size. Iv done partials and "Maxi BIAB" full size AG brews in it and using these paint strainer bags. So for -$30 you can crank out nice partials or even have a crack at half or full batch AG brews. Either way it's a cheap and effective way of increasing the quality of your beers immensely. 

That was exactly my set up.  Cheap and cheerful and worked a treat 

[alilley]

what did you use to chill it after boil? My biggest setback is a don't have a good cooling setup.

[Shamus O'Sean]

I have used the exact same bags @alilley.  I got the wort into a sanitised 15L cube, that could actually hold a couple more litres.  Allowed it to cool overnight before pitching into the fermenter.

[Journeyman]

10 hours ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

I have used the exact same bags @alilley.  I got the wort into a sanitised 15L cube, that could actually hold a couple more litres.  Allowed it to cool overnight before pitching into the fermenter.

What's the deal with slower cooling? If it works for the cubes, why is it so important to chill fast in the pot?

Could I just tip it straight into 10L of 1° water in the FV? 

Can I maybe stick the pot into a sink of cold tap water briefly to bring it under 80° for a hops stand then tip it into the cold FV?

[Shamus O'Sean]

2 hours ago, Journeyman said:

What's the deal with slower cooling? If it works for the cubes, why is it so important to chill fast in the pot?

Could I just tip it straight into 10L of 1° water in the FV? 

Can I maybe stick the pot into a sink of cold tap water briefly to bring it under 80° for a hops stand then tip it into the cold FV?

Slow cooling in a cube is for those who do not have cooling equipment (counter flow chiller, cooling plate, immersion chiller coil, etc).  It is also used by folks who do not want to faff around with the chilling process and its associated time and clean-up.  Also some do it because they want to start the actual fermenting some other time.

I think the answer to the question about the importance of chilling in the pot is that you are wanting to get your wort down to pitching temperature quickly to reduce the chance of anything foreign getting into your brew.  For example leaving your pot on the stove to naturally cool overnight, with the lid off is inviting infection.  Once you can get your wort into a fermenter, with the yeast pitched and starting to ferment it is safer.  Chilling quickly is also to stop extracting bitterness from your hops.

If you are doing a partial mash and including some extract that needs to be diluted you could tip your hot mash wort into 10L of 1° water.  I have done the opposite to get my hop boil below 80°C quickly.  If the recipe calls for the hop boil pot to be put into a sink of cold water to cool down, instead of that, I have started to pour 5L of 1°C water into the pot.  The following link is good for estimating what the resultant temperature of the combined liquids will be.   

https://rechneronline.de/chemie-rechner/mix-temperatures.php

Wort and water are close enough to the same liquid for my uses.  For example 5L of 95°C wort plus 5L of 1°C water gives 10L of 48°C liquid.  This temperature is still a fair way to go before pitching temperature, but well below the temperature for extracting bitterness from the hops.

You can definitely do as you indicate in your third dot point.  Many of the Coopers DIY recipes advise exactly what you say.  Although they do not usually talk about using chilled water.

For my partials and extract brews I now always cool 20L of water to 1°C overnight before brew day.  It is easier to get a large volume of water warmer than it is to get it cooler.

[Journeyman]

1 hour ago, Shamus O'Sean said:

I think the answer to the question about the importance of chilling in the pot is that you are wanting to get your wort down to pitching temperature quickly to reduce the chance of anything foreign getting into your brew.  For example leaving your pot on the stove to naturally cool overnight, with the lid off is inviting infection.  

Chilling quickly is also to stop extracting bitterness from your hops.

If you are doing a partial mash and including some extract that needs to be diluted you could tip your hot mash wort into 10L of 1° water.  I have done the opposite to get my hop boil below 80°C quickly.  If the recipe calls for the hop boil pot to be put into a sink of cold water to cool down, instead of that, I have started to pour 5L of 1°C water into the pot. 

If I leave the pot undisturbed, lid on, I could leave it to cool overnight with the proviso I remove the bittering hops first? I figure just before FO I could pull the hops sock out of the liquid to drain a bit, then put the lid back on and turn it off. With a decent lid the cooling wort would (should  ) create a partial vacuum to suck the lid down tight and prevent infection... (maybe... not intending to do it, just tossing ideas)

I'm planning a 20L brew & have 10 L @ 1° waiting. I have a 15 minute Centennial boil planned - should I remove this as I cool? I want to try a hop stand of 15 mins with the cascade then dry hop the citra after 3 or 4 days. I presume bitterness will keep increasing until the wort cools down past 80° unless I take out the sock?

[Shamus O'Sean]

34 minutes ago, Journeyman said:

If I leave the pot undisturbed, lid on, I could leave it to cool overnight with the proviso I remove the bittering hops first? I figure just before FO I could pull the hops sock out of the liquid to drain a bit, then put the lid back on and turn it off. With a decent lid the cooling wort would (should  ) create a partial vacuum to suck the lid down tight and prevent infection... (maybe... not intending to do it, just tossing ideas)

I'm planning a 20L brew & have 10 L @ 1° waiting. I have a 15 minute Centennial boil planned - should I remove this as I cool? I want to try a hop stand of 15 mins with the cascade then dry hop the citra after 3 or 4 days. I presume bitterness will keep increasing until the wort cools down past 80° unless I take out the sock?

I would not leave the pot to cool overnight.  But if you want to, I would remove the bittering hop sock.

15 minute Centennial boil - Remove when you cool.  May not matter a lot though.  I think that less bitterness is extracted with time.  Plus, in the time it takes to drop in enough cold water to bring your temperature to 80°C, for the hop stand, you are not likely to extract much more bitterness anyway.

Add the rest of your cold water after the hop stand.