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Roasted Malt vs Roasted Barley?


joules

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Hi,

I wanted to make some variation (but not deviate too much!) of the Irish Red Ale kit recipe. Just checking my ingredients and I see I have "Roasted Malt (also called BLACK malt)". This is obviously not the same as Roasted Barley?

Is anyone able to clarify this malt is ok or not? I got the crystal malt but went with the Light version.

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Hi Foxy

 

I know Christina has done a lot of work on the dark malts, so with a touch of luck, she or another smart cooky will help here. In terms of colour, I've only used black patent and roast barley, but I don't know the intricacies of taste differences. However, colourwise:

 

Black (Patent) EBC 985

Black Malt (Simpsons) EBC 1083

Black Malt (Thomas Fawcett) EBC 1300

Roast Barley (Barrett Burston) EBC 1300

 

That might possibly help!

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The only other difference I know of is that black patent, or roasted malt or whatever they wanna call it is malted barley, whereas roasted barley is unmalted barley. They do lend different flavours to the beer. I find a large amount of roasted barley is good in stouts for getting that roasty flavour they have, whereas I use a large amount of black patent in my porter and don't get the same roastiness from it.

 

I don't know if this helps any, but that's been my experience with them.

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Hi Joules. Both grains are very roasty and somewhat burnt tasting, in a pleasant sort of way. I would say roasted barley provides additional flavours too. A sip of cold steeped roasted barley tastes a lot like cold coffee. It is also a bit nutty and grainy. I find black patent less complex, less astringent, and "milder," although it still packs a powerful dark roast punch.

 

Roasted barley is used large amounts in dry stouts (10%), and in small amounts in Irish Red Ale, and sometimes in modern porter.

 

Black patent is used in large amounts in robust porters (7%). It is often used in small amounts for colouring. Many dark DME and LME are coloured with black patent.

 

When combined with a good dose of crystal malts both taste like dark chocolate. Many chocolate stout recipes don't contain any chocolate but just black patent/roasted barley, crystal, and chocolate malt.

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Thanks for sharing your experience Christina, very interesting.

 

I have not used Black Malt yet, but have been curious about how to use roasted grains since my last stout with 4.8% Roasted Barley and 4.8% Chocolate Malt turned out a bit less intense than I had been hoping for. I've been doing some reading on roasted grains, and the most helpful article I found was here.

 

There are four kinds of grain/malt that are considered collectively as “roasted.” They are chocolate malt, Carafa, roasted/black barley and black patent malt. All are made from malt except roasted barley. Below is a glance at them individually, followed by list of brews that run the continuum of roasty expression. They can be used as a style-defining feature grain, accent or something in between.

 

Chocolate malt: This specialty grain is the most eclectic of the lot, and lends nuttiness in particular, but also toasty hints of vanilla, cocoa and coffee. It resembles chocolate in color and contributes a mahogany hue to beer. The humble brown ale or dark mild particularly are excellent choices to showcase this malt, often used to set them apart as styles, but works well in tandem with fully roasted grains in most dark beers, whether ale or lager. It generally comes in at 350 to 450° L and has a higher extract potential than black grains. Dark versions are excellent for porters. Less common varieties are chocolate rye and wheat malts, if roggenbier or dunkelweizen are on your docket; and pale chocolate at 250° L and below.

 

Carafa®: This is actually a series of roasted malts (Reinheitsgebot-friendly) made by Weyermann of Bamburg, Germany. Weyermann themselves refer to this group as “chocolate” malt. In fact, the lightest of them is on par color wise with other chocolate malts, the dark versions similar to black patent and roasted barley (dark chocolate perhaps?), and the medium roast, somewhere in between. There are three grades: I (300-375° L), II (413-450° L) and III (488-563° L). There are also two groups, regular and special, for a total of six different renderings. The special versions are partially de-husked for a smoother roast character. So if it is a softer edge you want in your darkest beers, give the special a shot. In general, all types can be used as any other roasted grain. Baltic porter and schwarzbier fairly beg for them as a prominent characteristic, and dunkel and doppelbock as an accent.

 

Roasted (or Black) Barley: Made from un-malted barley, it is often the signature flavoring and coloring agent in stouts of all types. Its color rating is 500° L and above. Roasted barley supplanted black patent malt in many stouts and porters since it required less processing (as it is un-malted). Aside from the inky black color that we are familiar with, it also imparts dryness, espresso and smoky notes. Irish dry stouts rely on this grain for its intense, austere and parched quality. For more complex versions of stout, it can be used with black patent and chocolate malt, and also marries well with caramel malts for a bittersweet, burnt sugar flavor. For color adjustment and accent proportions, use it in Irish red ale (red tints), all Scottish ales (faint roast), brown ale or dark mild.

 

Black Patent Malt: The most aggressive roast, it imparts the sharpest flavor components. Black patent is roasted at high temperatures (450° F), on the verge of carbonization. Its color is roughly the equivalent of roasted barley (500°+ L), but with a sharper edge. Flavor contribution could best be described as bitter, burnt, gritty and ashy. Nineteenth-century porters first utilized black patent and,in fact, London porters that relied on brown malt changed their recipes to accommodate this malt, which was patented in 1817. Given the love for intense roasted flavors, microbrewers are not timid about using black patent at fairly high levels (as much as 10 percent) in porters or stouts, razor edges notwithstanding. For a complex and reasonably traditional porter, a grist with 5 percent black patent and 15 percent brown or amber malt atop English base malt, fermented with a London ale yeast would get the job done admirably. For color adjustment and minor flavor contribution, a low percentage would improve brown or old ale nicely. It, like roasted barley, works well with caramel, chocolate and Munich malt in porters and stouts. Also of note, Dingemann makes a de-bittered black malt.

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Thanks for sharing your experience Christina' date=' very interesting.

 

I have not used Black Malt yet, but have been curious about how to use roasted grains since my last stout with 4.8% Roasted Barley and 4.8% Chocolate Malt turned out a bit less intense than I had been hoping for. I've been doing some reading on roasted grains, and the most helpful article I found was here.

 

There are four kinds of grain/malt that are considered collectively as “roasted.” They are chocolate malt, Carafa, roasted/black barley and black patent malt. All are made from malt except roasted barley. Below is a glance at them individually, followed by list of brews that run the continuum of roasty expression. They can be used as a style-defining feature grain, accent or something in between.

 

Chocolate malt: This specialty grain is the most eclectic of the lot, and lends nuttiness in particular, but also toasty hints of vanilla, cocoa and coffee. It resembles chocolate in color and contributes a mahogany hue to beer. The humble brown ale or dark mild particularly are excellent choices to showcase this malt, often used to set them apart as styles, but works well in tandem with fully roasted grains in most dark beers, whether ale or lager. It generally comes in at 350 to 450° L and has a higher extract potential than black grains. Dark versions are excellent for porters. Less common varieties are chocolate rye and wheat malts, if roggenbier or dunkelweizen are on your docket; and pale chocolate at 250° L and below.

 

Carafa®: This is actually a series of roasted malts (Reinheitsgebot-friendly) made by Weyermann of Bamburg, Germany. Weyermann themselves refer to this group as “chocolate” malt. In fact, the lightest of them is on par color wise with other chocolate malts, the dark versions similar to black patent and roasted barley (dark chocolate perhaps?), and the medium roast, somewhere in between. There are three grades: I (300-375° L), II (413-450° L) and III (488-563° L). There are also two groups, regular and special, for a total of six different renderings. The special versions are partially de-husked for a smoother roast character. So if it is a softer edge you want in your darkest beers, give the special a shot. In general, all types can be used as any other roasted grain. Baltic porter and schwarzbier fairly beg for them as a prominent characteristic, and dunkel and doppelbock as an accent.

 

Roasted (or Black) Barley: Made from un-malted barley, it is often the signature flavoring and coloring agent in stouts of all types. Its color rating is 500° L and above. Roasted barley supplanted black patent malt in many stouts and porters since it required less processing (as it is un-malted). Aside from the inky black color that we are familiar with, it also imparts dryness, espresso and smoky notes. Irish dry stouts rely on this grain for its intense, austere and parched quality. For more complex versions of stout, it can be used with black patent and chocolate malt, and also marries well with caramel malts for a bittersweet, burnt sugar flavor. For color adjustment and accent proportions, use it in Irish red ale (red tints), all Scottish ales (faint roast), brown ale or dark mild.

 

Black Patent Malt: The most aggressive roast, it imparts the sharpest flavor components. Black patent is roasted at high temperatures (450° F), on the verge of carbonization. Its color is roughly the equivalent of roasted barley (500°+ L), but with a sharper edge. Flavor contribution could best be described as bitter, burnt, gritty and ashy. Nineteenth-century porters first utilized black patent and,in fact, London porters that relied on brown malt changed their recipes to accommodate this malt, which was patented in 1817. Given the love for intense roasted flavors, microbrewers are not timid about using black patent at fairly high levels (as much as 10 percent) in porters or stouts, razor edges notwithstanding. For a complex and reasonably traditional porter, a grist with 5 percent black patent and 15 percent brown or amber malt atop English base malt, fermented with a London ale yeast would get the job done admirably. For color adjustment and minor flavor contribution, a low percentage would improve brown or old ale nicely. It, like roasted barley, works well with caramel, chocolate and Munich malt in porters and stouts. Also of note, Dingemann makes a de-bittered black malt.

 

Thank you for sharing your experience with your stout and the interesting quote Porschemad...If your looking for more intensity in your stout recipe, maybe add a little black patent to your roasted barley and chocolate malt next time? A read a recipe like that once in an BYO magazine article about black patent. If memory serves me, the recipe called for equal amounts of all three roasted grains, but decreasing percentages would probably also work well.

 

Yes, I have read those description of black patent being ashy and sharper than roasted barely, but that has not been my experience. Maybe it is because I always cold steep it? Do you cold steep dark malts? Anyway, I have tried adding 100gm of black patent to an Irish Stout kit (= no crystal malts) and I did not like it. I think I pushed the percentage of dark malts too high with my addition.

 

I have also tried black patent together with dark crystal malt in a porter and liked it quite a lot; it was very intense....There is a local craft-brewery that makes a delicious Chocolate Stout which I am determined to try to recreate. Because it tastes similar to the porter, and because of the colour of the head (brown), I am sure there is black patent and crystal in it, with perhaps some chocolate malt as well. I am almost certain it does not contain any actual chocolate. Very yummy though....I am not a fan of chocolate malt. For my next attempt at chocolate stout I will modify my porter recipe, just switching the crystal malt to medium, instead of dark, and maybe add lactose or oatmeal.

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Yes' date=' I have read those description of black patent being ashy and sharper than roasted barely, but that has not been my experience. Maybe it is because I always cold steep it? Do you cold steep dark malts? [/quote']

 

My experience reflects yours, but I don't cold steep it. I just throw it in the mash with all the other grains.

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In truth, the message I'm reading is, for the small amount needed to slightly darken the wort, it shouldn't add much or any adverse flavours, so the particular type shouldn't matter.

 

The other thing I'd like to add is you shouldn't rely on any of those grains to add much of a red colour. It helps to slightly darken the hue, though. The deep, dark chasms of my mind are telling me the majority of specialty grains are commonly medium crystal for an Irish Red Ale with perhaps 20 g (maybe as high as 25 g) roast barley.

 

Do a search for a topic that Hairy started a while ago called "red ipa" or similar.

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In truth' date=' the message I'm reading is, for the small amount needed to slightly darken the wort, it shouldn't add much or any adverse flavours, so the particular type shouldn't matter.

 

The other thing I'd like to add is you shouldn't rely on any of those grains to add much of a red colour. It helps to slightly darken the hue, though. The deep, dark chasms of my mind are telling me the majority of specialty grains are commonly medium crystal for an Irish Red Ale with perhaps 20 g (maybe as high as 25 g) roast barley.

 

Do a search for a topic that Hairy started a while ago called "red ipa" or similar.[/quote']

Dammit I got Light Crystal Malt. Should've got the Amber! I want it red!

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Thank you for sharing your experience with your stout and the interesting quote Porschemad...If your looking for more intensity in your stout recipe' date=' maybe add a little black patent to your roasted barley and chocolate malt next time? A read a recipe like that once in an BYO magazine article about black patent. If memory serves me, the recipe called for equal amounts of all three roasted grains, but decreasing percentages would probably also work well.[/quote']

Yes, that is a great idea. For the next iteration I think I'll add Black Malt to the same amount (125g) as the Roasted Barley and Chocolate Malt. I'll also up the Maris Otter and drop the oats back a bit. So the grain bill will be be 69% MO, 8.6% Wheat malt, 5.2% flaked oats, 4.3% Caraaroma, 4.3% Chocolate malt, 4.3% Black malt & 4.3% Roasted Barley to hit an OG of 1.059. I want to try out the Wyeast 1469 West Yorkshire yeast for this as well - although Lusty recommended me an English yeast to try that sounded great, I'll need to hunt down his post!

 

Edit: Got it, it was Wyeast 1318 London Ale III, which Wyeast say works well in an Oatmeal Stout. That's that then!

 

Dammit I got Light Crystal Malt. Should've got the Amber! I want it red!

Apologies for derailing your thread joules ...

 

Red is tricky to get right, I didn't when I tried to brew OVB's red ale! But yeah you'd want some darker crystal as well for an Irish Red to get the flavour and colour.

 

Just brew it with what you've got I reckon - the light crystal and black malt. You won't quite get a Kilkenny-style brew, but it will still be tasty. It'll be more like an English Bitter I'd say ... you could always do a hop tea / dry hop / short hop boil if you have any English hops lying around to liven it up with.

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Do a search for a topic that Hairy started a while ago called "red ipa" or similar.

Dammit I got Light Crystal Malt. Should've got the Amber! I want it red!

 

Caraaroma works well and in my opinion is by far the best tasting crystal around.

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Caraaroma works well and in my opinion is by far the best tasting crystal around.

 

+1

 

It's a large part of the flavour make up of my red ale. I use black patent to darken it to a sort of blood/ruby red color. Might back off on the black patent next batch just to see how it turns out.

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For the next iteration I think I'll add Black Malt to the same amount (125g) as the Roasted Barley and Chocolate Malt. I'll also up the Maris Otter and drop the oats back a bit. So the grain bill will be be 69% MO' date=' 8.6% Wheat malt, 5.2% flaked oats, 4.3% Caraaroma, 4.3% Chocolate malt, 4.3% Black malt & 4.3% Roasted Barley to hit an OG of 1.059. I want to try out the Wyeast 1469 West Yorkshire yeast for this as well - although Lusty recommended me an English yeast to try that sounded great, I'll need to hunt down his post!

 

Edit: Got it, it was Wyeast 1318 London Ale III, which Wyeast say works well in an Oatmeal Stout. That's that then![/quote']

 

That recipe sounds freaking delicious Porchemad! You will have to let us know how it turns out. wink

 

Yes, sorry about getting off topic Joules. My bad. pinched

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Do a search for a topic that Hairy started a while ago called "red ipa" or similar.

Dammit I got Light Crystal Malt. Should've got the Amber! I want it red!

 

Caraaroma works well and in my opinion is by far the best tasting crystal around.

Now we got the quotes all outta wack!

I can only get wht the LHBS stocks. They have an Amber is this Caraaroma? This Light is AKA Caramalt / caramunich. I plan on hopping with some willamette.

@Otto Von Blotto

I want it BLOOD RED. So i my add some of the Black Malt to darken it. How much 20g? could be fine. If I go with the usual recipe but with 20g of Black Malt and willametta hops (have used fuggle hops but wanted to try out this type).

unsure

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Depends how big your batch is really... for example, my red ale I brew to 25 litres and use 300g CaraAroma and 70g black patent to get its ruby red colour. I think CaraAroma is more a dark crystal. I'm not sure what amber crystal is but it doesn't sound like it'd be as dark as CaraAroma.

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Oops I was posting something but forgot to submit...

So different LHBS have different grains under different names.

The closest LHBS has the cara* range.

I'm doing the Irish Red Ale. So 21Ltrs I think.

 

Carared?

Might get some of that.

I suppose the good thing is that you are forced to create something unique. Sticking as close as I can to the original - but using different crystal malts to make up the "Crystal Malt" ingredient - since it is obviously not specific enough. I'm cool with that cool

 

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Cararoma was quite expensive. I went with a generic Dark Crystal (pre cracked) + Ordinary Crystal (pre cracked) + some Pale Malt + Light Crystal Malt + Roasted Malt (black malt) in a mini mash (I need to experiment somehow!).

 

All cracked through a modified coffee grinder (4-5 pieces per grain - no bad - I ain gunna rolling pin!).

 

There is some red there ...but it's mostly brown. I tried to encourage a low temp mash but it stuck around 66°C even with a cool down it was still above 60°C after 20mins!

 

Good to get an idea about a wort holding it's temps. I did a 60min boil off and 30mins of 14g Fuggle/Wellamette split (smells the same to me!). I think I probably should've added more though. I added a secret ingredient with the hops (0.5g so you can probably guess what it is...)

 

OG was 1038 @ 22.5 and pretty spot on. Some calcs I've used add sugars from the black malt and say 1041 - I don't think there is much there TBH and probably should've added more pale malt.

 

OG sample tastes pretty good.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh I also added some polenta to the mash… .. ..

THE HERETIC devil DUCKS FOR COVER.

 

 

Edit: The net was down while I was doing this brew and *I think* I was planning to add more hops at the 10min mark - but didn't write it down. If anyone with experience would like to suggest a dry hop (with any hop I have a bunch here from Saaz to cascade to galaxy) schedule - please do!

 

biggrin

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I wouldn't dry hop with Saaz unless you want grass flavoured beer. Galaxy can do this too if left too long in the beer' date=' apparently. Being an Irish Red ale, maybe something like Fuggles would be good in the style?[/quote']

I guess I wasn't sure of the hoppiness of the APA. I could definately add more fuggles.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Just an update, I went with what I had. Started off brown but the SG sample was regular amber PA color. So not sure what went wrong. OG :1.038 FG: 1.012. It's actually been sitting in the bottling shed for a week or so. All the grains where mashed for 90mins - 60mins boil with 7g Fuggles + 7g willamette @30mins.

 

So the part mashed bits where:

40g Black Malt

100g Caramunich

120g Dark Crystal

200g Pale Ale (was told this was probably not enough to impact anything enzyme wise).

100g Polenta (see above)

 

Don't ask about the temps - Have since bought a more accurate temperature gauge but it was somewhere around 70°C (increments of 10 don't help much).

 

And finally:

1.7Kg APA

 

Safale S04

 

All a bit of an experimental mess - still learning. However sample is very nice - tastes like a typical english ale.

The mash was probably pointless, but since done a full mash on the stove top (9.5ltr batch) which worked out great (apart from screwing up the boil and hop schedule) and looking forward to mini-mash no #2

 

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